"Thelemites for Trump" Facebook page
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@Victor said
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My remarks on violence was simply stating a fact. The tree of liberty has been watered with the blood of tyrants and martyrs, to paraphrase Jefferson. "
Okay, but to your original point, Jefferson would be considered, clearly - apart of the old order, no?
"What does it then mean, this shirking away at the thought of violence? It doesn't make sense, unless this outward display of peacefulness actually masks the brutal exercise of power."
Violence is one thing, deluding ourselves that we have the "right" to kill those who would thwart our rights to eat a salmon dinner is another thing.
It's not that it is meek to reject violence, its just that using violence to solve any problem is stupid because it creates an environment where it is highly likely there will be retribution, creating more problems to solve a problem isn't a very elegant solution.
If anything was ever "old order", it would indeed be the delusion that killing other human beings creates a better life for ourselves. What's worse is the delusion that we have some sort of noble right to hack off someone's head should they dare to cross our sacred will.
Sure, I suppose if I was in a situation where it was my life or the guy trying to kill me, I would do what i had to survie, but that isnt what Liber Oz is about.
For most of us, the biggest threat to our own true will is our own delusion.
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Let's be practical. Decide we raise a civilization against violence, make them by design runaway or cower or simply ignore. Every so often there's a fluke birth. Kid can't seem to learn! Fucker is violent!"
Football is violent. The universe is violent. Argumentation, when done well, is violent. That has little to do with killing someone.
Non Violence can be highly confrontational, and when it has been used historically, it achieved total success (see Gandi, MLK)
Aikido, for example, is a highly martial system with the strategy of directly confronting violence, aggression, and death.
I think you are defining "non-violence" as a meek position, and it isn't - it is just the smart and elegant position
"wham! your society is now down for the count. Gone. Wiped by the violence it preyed upon itself to wipe. Gone. Gone. Gone."
how did we get to a non-violent society all of a sudden being wiped out by violence? Not sure your thought experiment made sense.
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Practical? Relevant?
Gone."You know, nuclear weapons carry the threat of a total destruction for all, kinda of also makes a strange peace.
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@Hermitas said
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"We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world."
""we"??? isn't that odd - Hadit is the self, who is the we this is referring to? "we", the collection of "hadits" is Nuit, yet this is not her chapter. It's little hints like this that to me - beg us to take a much deeper view of the face value of the words.
Do you really believe that Thelema, and the inherent mysteries, justify the killing of granny, cancer patients, and the starving?
If it did, Thelema would really be a low brow philosophy of the old order and I don't believe at all that is what this verse is implying. This verse is meant to stimulate something inside of us, stir up our own internal contradictions, bring our delusions to the forefront.
What do you think it means...to be a king? And, what is a king to begin with? Just a dude with all the power?
A king is in service to all of his kingdom.
Our psyches our also kingdoms, and unfortunately - our internal kingdoms are often run by our own internal idiots, not the *king (*spirit in woo speak)
Compassion is a feeling. Feelings are the most intimate self, they are not ideas or thoughts.
A "vice" is more akin to inspiration.
Compassion is an inspiration, which propels enlightened ideas. Compassion is a vice for kings, because kings are in service to all, and in the kingdom of our internal psychologies, a king is just a really beautiful, clear, honest, and expanding idea, especially an idea that can be of service, not just to our internal psyche, but to all of humanity, especially right now at this moment in history.
"Kings" can come to mean ideas born of the pure spirit in harmony with the universe (Nuit), not the meddlings of our own projections, characters, and bizarre interior psychologies plagued with the confusion of our own internal contradictions.
Those types of thoughts, the dark ones, the sad ones, the angry ones, the weak ones, not born of the king who is juiced up on inspiration born from compassion and the connection to all of humanity?
SPIT UPON THEM, laugh at their torment. They are just thoughts...after all. And THIS IS WHERE ALL THE VIOLENCE GOES. Get gorey with it. USE ALL CAPS. Treat fear and anxiety like the little bitches they are. They are standing in the way of the union of Nuit and Hadit.
Using violence against others in the world as a methodology of problem solving is just projecting our own internal contradictions on the outside world in a really tragic kinda a way. Nightmares.
(to me much of this chapter is role playing through the many internal contradictions an aspirant will resolve over the course of their devotion - I try to always remember to find the joke and the "leaping laughter". If I am not laughing, filled with compassion, and overflowing with awesome ideas, I'm only confused about Liber Al
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This is a hopeless conversation. Reason can't seem to take hold.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
What is thy will?
It is my will to eat and to drink.
To what end?
That I may fortify my body thereby.
To what end?
That I may accomplish the Great Work.
Love is the law, love under will.Eating Salmon is not THE RIGHT. Eating is. It isn't about "A Man" who can do whatever his animal body desires, it's about "Man" being the supreme determiner of fate. If you keep boiling it down to "me" vs "you," on the individual scale of "that is my orange," then fight it out until the so-called "false-will" of the one who is mistaken dies. The individual need not die (but you may not understand what I am meaning because you prefer hyperbole and histrionic definitions).
Also don't forget the comment to the Law, "All questions of the Law are to be decided only by appeal to my writings, each for himself," in your desire to institutionalize your interpretations. Perhaps you are among those attempting to thwart these rights?
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oh, and accusations of "old order." Yummy. Let's burn all the "old order." How do we know they are "old order?" I guess they might float when you try to drown them? Or sink? Weigh about the same as a duck? I don't know. That's beyond my pay grade.
Let the old ones be black. My prophet has purged them and rescued the good parts to keep.
Thank you.
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"How do we know they are "old order?""
That's the easy part. any form of win/lose problem-solving emerging from a patriarchy. the new order is total collaboration where competition is a sport, not a do or die scenario.
Surely Liber Oz would contain more wisdom than just some slave revolt manual! There is nothing new to the idea that we have to fight to survive.
Nothing new to that at all.
"Perhaps you are among those attempting to thwart these rights?
"Someone please, kill me
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@Takamba said
"You clearly don't understand Liber OZ."
If Liber OZ suggests what you and some other suggests it does in this thread, then I am glad I don't. I much prefer my own delusion where compassion, humor, inspiration, and a willingness to propel humanity to greater heights reigns. I guess I have no requirement for slave revolt manuals.
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@Takamba said
"This is a hopeless conversation. Reason can't seem to take hold."
"You clearly don't understand Liber OZ."
" There is great danger in me; for who doth not understand these runes shall make a great miss. He shall fall down into the pit called Because, and there he shall perish with the dogs of Reason."
Oh, the irony.
Seriously, Takamba, when you're going around saying that people don't understand Thelema or Liber Oz because they disagree with you, or are thwarting people's rights by suggesting that we be less violent than our ancestors, you've lost the thread.
Fights to the death over oranges are situations that exist when you do politics wrong.
Again, people, this isn't hard. It's just politics. It's not metaphysics.
Let's not be fascists and nazis. There are better ways that work much better for everyone.
Trump is doing the classic fascist autocrat move of (1) riding in on populist energy (2) accusing all the governmental institutions of corruption so that (3) there'll be less institutions in place to stop him from seizing more power and doing the corrupt things he wants to do.
Don't be a stupid person that falls for it. It's not worth it, no matter how much better one imagines they might feel while fighting over an orange for the sake of True WIll.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
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@Takamba said
"This is a hopeless conversation. Reason can't seem to take hold.""You clearly don't understand Liber OZ."
" There is great danger in me; for who doth not understand these runes shall make a great miss. He shall fall down into the pit called Because, and there he shall perish with the dogs of Reason."
Oh, the irony.
Seriously, Takamba, when you're going around saying that people don't understand Thelema or Liber Oz because they disagree with you, or are thwarting people's rights by suggesting that we be less violent than our ancestors, you've lost the thread.
Fights to the death over oranges are situations that exist when you do politics wrong.
Again, people, this isn't hard. It's just politics. It's not metaphysics.
Let's not be fascists and nazis. There are better ways that work much better for everyone.
Trump is doing the classic fascist autocrat move of (1) riding in on populist energy (2) accusing all the governmental institutions of corruption so that (3) there'll be less institutions in place to stop him from seizing more power and doing the corrupt things he wants to do.
Don't be a stupid person that falls for it. It's not worth it, no matter how much better one imagines they might feel while fighting over an orange for the sake of True WIll."
A: The Law is for all.
B: The rights of Man are for all.If one, or many, or any thing would thwart these rights, they would not be following the Law. They would not be doing their will. Not "True Will." If thou hast broken one commandment, thou hast broken them all. Or something old but useful like that. All words and prophets and so forth, save you might only understand a little. No one has argued against compassion (understanding how someone feels and wishing them well). No one has argued against striving to have the entire species enlarged so (so as maybe these questions aren't so hard to understand and answer well). Instead we want our mommy cuddled natures instead to be our definers of compassion (whatever won't maybe hurt in the process). No. I don't want my mommy cuddled nature, I want my self reliant, self determined, fraternally appreciative True Self nature. So thank me for saying no to giving you a free lunch, but later if you would help me I have a bunch of fruit I have to get rid of.
I just don't think you get Liber OZ. You can disagree, but when it's your mammalian brain in charge, it isn't anywhere near sufficient language centers to convey the true benefit to the entire species you dream of. (Note, I'm not talking politics, I'm talking about society within a topic about politics.)
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"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time. However, if you see that your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together."
attribution goes to an author I cannot remember
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@Takamba said
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A: The Law is for all.
B: The rights of Man are for all."Love is the law
"(If one, or many, or any thing would thwart these rights, they would not be following the Law. They would not be doing their will. Not "True Will." "
Self inflicted violations of our true will should also be applied, no? What do you do to yourself when you fail to express your true will?
" If thou hast broken one commandment, thou hast broken them all. Or something old but useful like that. All words and prophets and so forth, save you might only understand a little. "
Sounds like some form of punishment is coming. Acting outside of the true will would put one in conflict with the entire universe. I would suggest staying out of the way of that and let the universe do her thing.
" No one has argued against compassion (understanding how someone feels and wishing them well)."
Compassion is more than just wishing someone well. It means you are bound up with them in their struggle for liberation.
"No one has argued against striving to have the entire species enlarged so (so as maybe these questions aren't so hard to understand and answer well)."
That's not what it reads like, perhaps what you intend to communicate is being lost somehow. The "right to kill those who thwart rights" and something something Donald Trump appears to being going in the opposite direction of continued historical progress.
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Instead we want our mommy cuddled natures instead to be our definers of compassion (whatever won't maybe hurt in the process). "
I want the leaping laughter!
"No. I don't want my mommy cuddled nature, I want my self reliant, self determined, fraternally appreciative True Self nature. "
True Self nature is naturally in harmony with all true self natures. It is a collaborative sport, consciousness. No one really does anything all on their own. You would not even know who you are without others.
"So thank me for saying no to giving you a free lunch, but later if you would help me I have a bunch of fruit I have to get rid of."
You know...I remember reading in Crowley's Autohaigraphy, about him buying lunch for a friend under financial stress. Little moments like that always redeemed Crowley a bit from his more macho tough guy road show.
"I just don't think you get Liber OZ. "
Who can say, really. I don't think a few of us get you, to be more precise. But I do want to understand, and see what you can see.
" You can disagree, but when it's your mammalian brain in charge, it isn't anywhere near sufficient language centers to convey the true benefit to the entire species you dream of. (Note, I'm not talking politics, I'm talking about society within a topic about politics.)"
Ahhh, coming full circle back to the original quote from Liber Al - COMPASSION IS THE VICE OF KINGS. exactly. the mammal intelligence is clueless. The spirit king needs his juice, compassion, to light the way, get through all of the confusion.
The entire universe is a win win sport if you know how to read the tea leaves
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1980s schtick about liberals and "nanny/mommy state" and "big government" aside, Democrats are the only fiscal conservatives in the room. Republicans/Trump just passed tax cuts for the wealthy and raised the debt limit. Their proposed budget guts social services to spend HUGE sums on the military.
They don't want to help. They want to get richer at the public's expense. So their trick for generations has been to whine about nanny states, and bleeding heart liberals, so that people would be outraged, and they could do more looting.
And you fell for it, Takamba. They even have you working for free.
Looting the future at the expense of the next generation is the behavior of the Black Brotherhood.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"1980s schtick about liberals and "nanny/mommy state" and "big government" aside, Democrats are the only fiscal conservatives in the room. Republicans/Trump just passed tax cuts for the wealthy and raised the debt limit. Their proposed budget guts social services to spend HUGE sums on the military.
They don't want to help. They want to get richer at the public's expense. So their trick for generations has been to whine about nanny states, and bleeding heart liberals, so that people would be outraged, and they could do more looting.
And you fell for it, Takamba. They even have you working for free.
Looting the future at the expense of the next generation is the behavior of the Black Brotherhood."
Again, proof on lack of comprehension skills. All the evidence is in this thread.
I have stated I am not a Trump supporter, I have stated that I'm merely playing Devil's advocate in some cases to answer the actual intent of this thread which is to discuss (for some reason unknown) why anyone would pair Trump and Thelema on a Facebook Page. So personal verbal attacks at me are ineffective. Ineffective. Good magicians might be ineffective from time to time, but great magicians never.
You are generalizing all black people... oops, no, sorry... all rich white people as all having the same natures and motives. How very sweet of you. No evidence presented, yet you intend that I should believe what you claim.
Rich people like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are interested in technological advances for the entire planet, including the search for cures for diseases that ravage only the extremely underprivileged. Contrary to popular belief, the founding fathers were rich white men, so history doesn't seem to jive with this theory that rich white men are only interested in money and more money. Rich white men like Elon Musk like to show off their toys, you say? Or maybe find a way to get us to Mars and pay attention. Perhaps the motive is "my rocket in my pocket is the biggest ever" or perhaps the motive is (as is claimed by Musk) "the advancement of the entire world."
I don't know. I defer instead to your omniscience.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"1980s schtick about liberals and "nanny/mommy state" and "big government" aside, Democrats are the only fiscal conservatives in the room. Republicans/Trump just passed tax cuts for the wealthy and raised the debt limit. Their proposed budget guts social services to spend HUGE sums on the military.
They don't want to help. They want to get richer at the public's expense. So their trick for generations has been to whine about nanny states, and bleeding heart liberals, so that people would be outraged, and they could do more looting.
And you fell for it, Takamba. They even have you working for free.
Looting the future at the expense of the next generation is the behavior of the Black Brotherhood."
If I can't mention the feelings of "mama cuddled" individuals without you referring to it as a "schtick," you have no place in an adult discussion.
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@ldfriend56 said
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@Takamba said
"A: The Law is for all.
B: The rights of Man are for all."Love is the law
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Mistake not Love for there is love and there is love. etc etc. You know the 'schtick.'
@ldfriend56 said
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@Takamba said
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(If one, or many, or any thing would thwart these rights, they would not be following the Law. They would not be doing their will. Not "True Will." "Self inflicted violations of our true will should also be applied, no? What do you do to yourself when you fail to express your true will?
"You're starting to get it. You might actually get it! You have to think a little more meta when understanding The Rights of Man and you're starting to show this. Yes, the Law is a Law because it is self enforcing for the most part (a problem of human comprehension or it would show as in all parts). I think you're getting it.
@ldfriend56 said
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@Takamba said
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If thou hast broken one commandment, thou hast broken them all. Or something old but useful like that. All words and prophets and so forth, save you might only understand a little. "Sounds like some form of punishment is coming. Acting outside of the true will would put one in conflict with the entire universe. I would suggest staying out of the way of that and let the universe do her thing. "
You're getting it. Stay out of the way for things like oranges vs EBT cards, virus invasion vs healthier species development, appropriately used words on a radio broadcast vs freedom of speech. Yeah, you don't know this but you get that part. Now, about the Rights of Man; the problem seems to be with the 'unsavory' phrase "kill those who thwart these rights" as if parsing one phrase makes more valid all the rest. Nope. Instead, that punishment stands because (refer to previous statements included within this entire thread) actually thwarting a right is far different than breaking a law or rule. Killing (in the Yoga for Yahoos sense) isn't actually even possible. Also, Kings apparently can't actually hurt one another I guess (refer to Liber AL for that one) (wacky shit this Do What Thou Wilt shit, it has all these reference points and tends to prove itself). Man has the right to kill those who thwart the rights of man.
Thwart the rights of man.....
Thwart the rights of man....oh, a law says I can't eat oranges on Sunday????????? THWART!
OH, guilty white privelaged boy says my singing the blues, impacted so as it is by my life of poverty and hardship, my tough outer exterior that my blessed life built for me, is a sadness to him? And he wants to correct my life for me with his shaming EBT cards and distressing (psychologically) visits of wellness checks at my home? Oh, okay. I get it. You feel bad because all your setbacks are self-inflicted and the poor black child was just born that way. So hand candy to the poor black child say you? Sure. I get it.@ldfriend56 said
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@Takamba said
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No one has argued against compassion (understanding how someone feels and wishing them well)."Compassion is more than just wishing someone well. It means you are bound up with them in their struggle for liberation."
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe this isn't a comprehension problem on your part, maybe it's a paying attention problem. It could still be either, mind you, but my evidence is in the above. I did say that compassion is understanding. What is understanding? It is comprehending at the least. Comprehending means enveloping, completely all the matter of the subject. "Bound up" like a slave? Naw, but enveloping and comprehending, understanding the other person's situation and feelings etc, AND (that's an English word, a conjunction (that means it puts things together), a verbal "plus sign" (+)) wishing them well; so what I'm saying is, compassion is comprehending (meaning all which that word means) others and wishing them well (meaning NOT "good bye sucka" but "may love and light surround you").
I think you're starting to get it.
@ldfriend56 said
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@Takamba said
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No one has argued against striving to have the entire species enlarged so (so as maybe these questions aren't so hard to understand and answer well)."That's not what it reads like, perhaps what you intend to communicate is being lost somehow. The "right to kill those who thwart rights" and something something Donald Trump appears to being going in the opposite direction of continued historical progress."
As above and probably so below, I have been demonstrating that I need not really add more words to my thesis with you. I have stated it and stated it well, you aren't comprehending it. Not because I didn't state it, but because you are filtering it through garbage. You are either interpreting my words as you want them to lean, or you are ignoring some words and not others. This is not the author's fault.
@ldfriend56 said
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@Takamba said
"Instead we want our mommy cuddled natures instead to be our definers of compassion (whatever won't maybe hurt in the process). "
I want the leaping laughter! "
I love you.
@ldfriend56 said
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@Takamba said
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No. I don't want my mommy cuddled nature, I want my self reliant, self determined, fraternally appreciative True Self nature. "True Self nature is naturally in harmony with all true self natures. It is a collaborative sport, consciousness. No one really does anything all on their own. You would not even know who you are without others."
By Jove, I think you've got it! So the Rights of Man is reaaaaaaallllly about learning about you the individual! And enough of the externalizing the blame and responsibility! Hey Mom! Check this guy out! I think he gets it.
@ldfriend56 said
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@Takamba said
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So thank me for saying no to giving you a free lunch, but later if you would help me I have a bunch of fruit I have to get rid of."You know...I remember reading in Crowley's Autohaigraphy, about him buying lunch for a friend under financial stress. Little moments like that always redeemed Crowley a bit from his more macho tough guy road show."
You see. You have the words. You have the stories vaguely in your memory. Great. Now go back and read that book again. Crowley treats a brethren to a "free lunch," but as a need for Crowley at that time, not as a pity point, not for martyrdom, not for quid pro quo, but as a brother. Go back, attempt to understand more than the actions itself. Attempt to understand the exact words chosen. Crowley helped, yes, but not in a way that also provided hurt (pride shame loathing pity).
@ldfriend56 said
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@Takamba said
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I just don't think you get Liber OZ. "Who can say, really. I don't think a few of us get you, to be more precise. But I do want to understand, and see what you can see. "
Other than your racism, I don't think we're as far apart as you think.
@ldfriend56 said
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@Takamba said
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You can disagree, but when it's your mammalian brain in charge, it isn't anywhere near sufficient language centers to convey the true benefit to the entire species you dream of. (Note, I'm not talking politics, I'm talking about society within a topic about politics.)"Ahhh, coming full circle back to the original quote from Liber Al - COMPASSION IS THE VICE OF KINGS. exactly. the mammal intelligence is clueless. The spirit king needs his juice, compassion, to light the way, get through all of the confusion.
The entire universe is a win win sport if you know how to read the tea leaves
"
"YAY!
You get it!
See how many times you used the word "sport" as you were closing your arguments? That's an indication of you knowing what I mean, what I truly mean.Now, somewhere in the archives of this vast collection of forums is a topic about compassion. In it we discuss what is compassion and what is mere trouble making meddling. One is weak to be stamped down, one is the vice of Kings. It's like Love. There is the serpent and there is the dove. Choose ye well.
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@Takamba said
"If I can't mention the feelings of "mama cuddled" individuals without you referring to it as a "schtick," you have no place in an adult discussion."
Incorrect. There wasn't an adult discussion happening.
It's projection. You have unresolved mama issues, which manifest in rejection of the collective that we all belong to, fear of surrender, and over-reliance on ego-separation.
Yes, we need strong, independent, competitive, ego drive. And we also need full, deep, cooperative surrender to the whole. We need Nuit and Hadit. Over-reliance on the first got us where we are, but we've outgrown it. It's time for us to enter the new Aeon. I know it's scary, but if you let your fear of the Nuit half of the equation drive you, then you're on the wrong path.
In the meantime, Trump has proposed a $1 trillion dollar annual deficit. Obama entered office with a $1.3 trillion dollar annual deficit, inherited from Bush. Obama cut the deficit down to about $500 billion by the time he left office.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
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@Takamba said
"If I can't mention the feelings of "mama cuddled" individuals without you referring to it as a "schtick," you have no place in an adult discussion."Incorrect. There wasn't an adult discussion happening.
It's projection. You have unresolved mama issues, which manifest in rejection of the collective that we all belong to, fear of surrender, and over-reliance on ego-separation.
Yes, we need strong, independent, competitive, ego drive. And we also need full, deep, cooperative surrender to the whole. We need Nuit and Hadit. Over-reliance on the first got us where we are, but we've outgrown it. It's time for us to enter the new Aeon. I know it's scary, but if you let your fear of the Nuit half of the equation drive you, then you're on the wrong path.
In the meantime, Trump has proposed a $1 trillion dollar annual deficit. Obama entered office with a $1.3 trillion dollar annual deficit, inherited from Bush. Obama cut the deficit down to about $500 billion by the time he left office."
Here you have measured and judged me and done so inaccurately. "You have unresolved mama issues, which manifest in rejection of the collective..." Show me this manifestation. Show me this rejection. I have done no such thing. IN FACT, I'm stating that your methods (here you poor old sod, have a cookie on us) are more detrimental to the collective (oh shit, DNA encoded cookie collection failure for the species has promulgated)*. That's what I'm saying.
Now quit confusing me with Trump, that's your transference and daddy issue manifesting itself.
*yes, that's an extreme and silly example - but you should get the message (I reserve the right to write what I will),
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Quit confusing liberals with mommy issues, and I'll quit confusing you with a Trump supporter.
I know what you're saying. I just disagree.
You: unsubstantiated claims about damage to the collective because of nonsense worries about nanny state and mommy-loving liberals (TM Takamba/Rush Limbaugh/Trump)
Me: cutting food stamps and healthcare hurts the collective measurably
One is based on irrational fear of surrender. One is based on real-world facts.*
Daddy issues can manifest as anger at the old aeon patriarchy (which is sometimes necessary to move beyond an old structure) OR simpering unquestioning obedience to would-be dictators.
www.newsweek.com/trump-president-well-being-index-americans-805376
"The well-being index looked at well-being with five measures: purpose, social, financial, community and physical."
"21 states saw a drop in well-being from 2016 to 2017, beating the previous high of 15 set amid the onset of the recession in 2009. Not a single state recorded a statistically significant increase in well-being, the first time that has happened since the study began."