Personal experience with angels & gods
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"angels are pure celestial energy and light with rarely if no incarnation at all in whatever plane"
A statement that means all things to all people, or nothing at all. Meaningless to me.
Entities should be tested by the Qabalah. Test the entity's color, appearance, name, words, answers to questions using your Qabalah as your test key. This will depend greatly on your skill and memory.
Read more, perhaps, from those who have practiced. Observe what they do and say in their reports. It's a learning process.
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@Abdulaziz said
"How could you differentiate the presence of either an angel or a god (deva)? Besides it being a result of a specific evocation to that particular entity; how could you know? Bear in mind many gifted people who don't even practice ceremonial magic report being visited or having a certain spiritual presence, what explanation would you have for that? One interesting thing I heard by someone who practice only formal yoga is that angels are pure celestial energy and light with rarely if no incarnation at all in whatever plane, something different than what most magicians nowadays say."
I agree with Takamba's suggestions.
Of course people with no ceremonial magic experience may experience entities. This doesn't come natural to all people, but to some it certainly does, increasing the more a person prays and seeks such experiences.
My own explanation, which you are not required to accept (lol), is that the unconscious mind is the medium for such experiences. Some people naturally have a more free flow of information to and from their unconscious minds. Others may increase it through practical efforts.
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@Takamba said
""angels are pure celestial energy and light with rarely if no incarnation at all in whatever plane"
A statement that means all things to all people, or nothing at all. Meaningless to me."
By that I meant (from what I understood), to identify angels from their perspective is to have: a serene presence that will result in effortless healing and comfort for the person in turmoil, something probably similar to the Shekinah concept. They don't manifest physically as having a certain form or sound, only light, and in some cases the aroma of flowers coming out of nowhere.
That's the common experience of those who don't practice left-hand path leaning methods, and I'm interested in that because in this case they're pure example of how uniting with the Tao would be, these things come to them they don't go for them, which makes it more credible and simple.
On the other hand, how could you know if these are angels or devas? From what I know and assume, the gods once had a physical incarnation, thus they can communicate with us through our human means, just like any adept or guru, while angels don't.
I hope I made myself clear.
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@Hermitas said
"I agree with Takamba's suggestions.
Of course people with no ceremonial magic experience may experience entities. This doesn't come natural to all people, but to some it certainly does, increasing the more a person prays and seeks such experiences.
My own explanation, which you are not required to accept (lol), is that the unconscious mind is the medium for such experiences. Some people naturally have a more free flow of information to and from their unconscious minds. Others may increase it through practical efforts."
Yes, bear in mind the probability of their nature being a result of past karma, through initiation work and environment, as they're yet infant souls, that's why mystery orders and lineages exist, the moment they're ready they will reunite with their masters, the new age scene is filled with these dear souls, we should keep an eye on them.
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@danica said
"The Briatic beings are invoked, not evoked."
So what does this make the entities that appeared after the evocation of a certain archangel for instance?
Planetary spirits/etheric shells used by the greater entity itself?
Sorry but I'm not an expert in these matters. -
"By that I meant (from what I understood), to identify angels from their perspective is to have: a serene presence that will result in effortless healing and comfort for the person in turmoil, something probably similar to the Shekinah concept. They don't manifest physically as having a certain form or sound, only light, and in some cases the aroma of flowers coming out of nowhere."
That has never been my experience of angels, however, if you go in with an expectation it will affect your result. If you are to believe the premise that angels exist objectively but are without form, then you must also posit that the form and some the characteristics you give this energy comes from your own unconscious mind. Some of your own ability to create the forms of these beings out of the astral light is what dictates how they are. If you associate tobacco with Geburah and invoke Kamael, you may smell tobacco- as the association you have learned dictates some sort of characteristic of the angel. You may also not. I personally have not met an angel thus far which has not seemed cold and uncaring to me. Never comforting or healing, but that could just be my experience, many new-ages would disagree with me.
"On the other hand, how could you know if these are angels or devas? From what I know and assume, the gods once had a physical incarnation, thus they can communicate with us through our human means, just like any adept or guru, while angels don't.
"These are all just labels for spiritual beings, I am not of the opinion that there are angels and demons. Merely beings which have been categorized as such out of superstition and personal experiences. You say you know and assume, I don't know how you both can know and assume. I don't believe Gods had physical incarnations, just stories which state they did. How are they communicating through human means?
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@mark0987 said
"These are all just labels for spiritual beings, I am not of the opinion that there are angels and demons. Merely beings which have been categorized as such out of superstition and personal experiences. You say you know and assume, I don't know how you both can know and assume. I don't believe Gods had physical incarnations, just stories which state they did. How are they communicating through human means?"
What I know and assume is definitely open for discussion and criticism, my apology if I came off too confidant in my beliefs and theories.
Master Therion himself in different sources proposed the same thing. In Liber OZ, it says 'There's no God but Man.' In one of the letters in Magick Without Tears, he mentions how the 'gods' are intimately connected to humans on different levels (let alone the fact they appear in most cultures as so), finally, my belief that the spiritual is not separate from the physical, it actually has to be so or otherwise it's all meaningless, even if it existed. It's Hadit, the divine spark, it may be veiled or go dim, but it's still there, that's why once in a while in history we have those divine human beings who 'bring fresh fever from the skies', and the adepts are just in their way for that, some are already.
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@Abdulaziz said
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@danica said
"The Briatic beings are invoked, not evoked."So what does this make the entities that appeared after the evocation of a certain archangel for instance?
Planetary spirits/etheric shells used by the greater entity itself?
Sorry but I'm not an expert in these matters."If it's your experience, you were there, you can surely say better than me what kind of beings appeared
Did you communicate with them?Btw, you may find this old thread of interest:
<!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14697&p=99177&hilit=the+four+worlds#p99172">viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14697&p=99177&hilit=the+four+worlds#p99172</a><!-- l -->Also, are you familiar with Liber 777 or 776 1/2 ?
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@danica said
"If it's your experience, you were there, you can surely say better than me what kind of beings appeared
Did you communicate with them?Btw, you may find this old thread of interest:
<!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14697&p=99177&hilit=the+four+worlds#p99172">viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14697&p=99177&hilit=the+four+worlds#p99172</a><!-- l -->Also, are you familiar with Liber 777 or 776 1/2 ?"
I have never attended any evocation or binding kind of work, which I'm actually against, especially since it is made in the name of the God of Israel in the classical grimoires, but that's something I won't do even in the name of other gods, as I believe a being with his own will, authority and divinity chooses to interact with me if need is arisen, other than that, I'm of the belief each line of evolution should go in its own way and not infringe upon the other as it is usually made.
What I concluded from your first comment is that Briatic beings might appear (physically) but ONLY through invocation?
I only went through some of the pages of the books you mentioned, thanks for the links.
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@Abdulaziz said
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I have never attended any evocation or binding kind of work, which I'm actually against, especially since it is made in the name of the God of Israel in the classical grimoires, but that's something I won't do even in the name of other gods, as I believe a being with his own will, authority and divinity chooses to interact with me if need is arisen, other than that, I'm of the belief each line of evolution should go in its own way and not infringe upon the other as it is usually made.What I concluded from your first comment is that Briatic beings might appear (physically) but ONLY through invocation?
I only went through some of the pages of the books you mentioned, thanks for the links."
Okay. We have a researcher, not a doer. That's part of the problem. You will never understand some things that cannot be exactly transmitted via written word. Only experience can show you what to be for or against. But if the written word has bound you, so be it. Who am I to interfere with your evolution?
Whereas as I understand things, testing those boundaries of belief is the exact purpose of occult and Thelemic study and
drum and flute
practice.Invoke means to bring into an indwelling way, into yourself, to become a vehicle possessed by the being.
To evoke means to bring out into the world, to encapsulate in an external vessel for communication with or other purposes.My favorite vessel is a cat, but that's a long story.
Dabbling will get you nowhere faster than Hell.
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@Takamba said
"Okay. We have a researcher, not a doer. That's part of the problem. You will never understand some things that cannot be exactly transmitted via written word. Only experience can show you what to be for or against. But if the written word has bound you, so be it. Who am I to interfere with your evolution?
Whereas as I understand things, testing those boundaries of belief is the exact purpose of occult and Thelemic study and
drum and flute
practice.Invoke means to bring into an indwelling way, into yourself, to become a vehicle possessed by the being.
To evoke means to bring out into the world, to encapsulate in an external vessel for communication with or other purposes.My favorite vessel is a cat, but that's a long story.
Dabbling will get you nowhere faster than Hell."
I prefer theurgy and gnosis, I do believe as I said that any spirit I'm destined to communicate with will be present in my own field when I astral project, because it seems both magicians and common people who also do astral projection report similar results about at least how these entities look and feel, I'm sure the type of knowledge they're supposed to carry will be different to each one.
I just feel like these are Old Aeon methods, which I'm not wholly devaluing, as I appreciate their technical precision, but I choose to take from them what is in conformity with my True Will.
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"I prefer theurgy and gnosis, I do believe as I said that any spirit I'm destined to communicate with will be present in my own field when I astral project, because it seems both magicians and common people who also do astral projection report similar results about at least how these entities look and feel, I'm sure the type of knowledge they're supposed to carry will be different to each one.
I just feel like these are Old Aeon methods, which I'm not wholly devaluing, as I appreciate their technical precision, but I choose to take from them what is in conformity with my True Will.
"You seem to be under the impression that evocation can only take place by commanding spirits into a triangle utilising the God names of the Hebrew God, or any other deity. But that is simply nonsense- there are other methods, both outside of the ceremonial tradition and within it. Some people simply leave offerings and call out to these beings and they come, others ask them to come and make a bargain. Then you have others who want to dominate them and believe them to be inner neuroses and not spirits at all. I agree evocation, as taught in the grimoires, is old aeon, the methods can be seen as harsh and cruel, and even supplicatory for oneself. But if you are a Thelemite complaining about a method but don't want to update it and change into a revolutionary new style for yourself, you're a poor Thelemite!
You will have beings when you astral project, the issue some of these beings will be useless, some will be self-creations, and others will just be pretenders. The sphere of sensation reflects and attracts anything which you think or draw to yourself willingly- it's nice talking to your friends, but learning about your flaws from your enemies is also useful.
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@Ab-ul-Az said
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I just feel like these are Old Aeon methods, which I'm not wholly devaluing, as I appreciate their technical precision, but I choose to take from them what is in conformity with my True Will."The "methods" is The Holy Qabalah
In practice, I personally see it as a matter of scientific approach (or lack thereof). -
@danica said
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@Ab-ul-Az said
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I just feel like these are Old Aeon methods, which I'm not wholly devaluing, as I appreciate their technical precision, but I choose to take from them what is in conformity with my True Will."The "methods" is The Holy Qabalah
In practice, I personally see it as a matter of scientific approach (or lack thereof)."And also some seem for forget that their "True Will" had them born in this certain historic period and in their individual conditions. If you were born a Catholic, for instance, Catholicism is not "against" your "True Will," it is there for its reasons to serve your "True Will." It's part of the science in the "science and..." thing.
or
go about things artlessly if you wish.