"Proof" poll
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
This forum represents my first contact with other Thelemites.
There has been a some recent talk on this forum about the unlimited power of ceremonial magick to achieve personal goals. My limited experience in these matters echoes this powerful potential. However, the context of many postings speaks differently of universal results in this area.
It seems obvious that when a magician "comes into power," certain material needs will be met, if for no other reason than that they allow the magician the time and freedom to devote to further work.
Thus this vastly superficial, potentially insulting, poll of our collective "proof."
Thanks to all who participate.
Love is the law, love under will.
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Results on this poll will be interesting. I don't think they'll get at what you're interested in showing, but it will be interesting and worthwhile for other reasons.
One reason I don't think it's a "straight up or down" kind of question is that individual dharma can poduce many variations in this. For example - to take broad categories - there is an Eastern spiritual dharma that inclines to removal from the world for the pursuit of spiritual matters, and a Western spiritual dharma that quite specifically is based on ongoing investment and participation in the world as part of one's spiritual path. This isn't limited, of course, to where one is born or lives geographically - but to broader streams.
There is also the question of what particular lessons one has to learn, and of what role one is destined to play in life. Either of these could require that one remain very connected to the day-to-day worklife of ordinary people (for example). In that case, any withdrawal from that would be contrary to the bigger picture of one's True Will.
Also, conditions vary with stages of life. At the time that I needed to be able to have a location separate from my home dedicated as a personal temple and devote many hours of every single day to the Great Work, I had my own law practice that allowed me to work (on the average) half of each day and make more money than I could think about how to spend. That stage of my life being over, I moved to other situations where I work way more than fulltime and make a fraction of what I did at that time. Need modiied the circumstances of my life and universe. Nuit provides.
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While I really haven't climbed all that high up the tree, I'm always reminded that a magickian must always have his feet grounded in Malkuth. Malkuth is where we live and I don't think a person can truly withdraw from it and keep their sanity.
Me, I work, and I don't mind working. I can find my Will in what I produce on Malkuth, along with what I discover on the other planes.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Results on this poll will be interesting. I don't think they'll get at what you're interested in showing, but it will be interesting and worthwhile for other reasons."
While this poll is created in a skeptic's tone, I did expect it to reveal a slighly higher percentage of individuals on the forum who are financially independent than in the general population. It looks like it might actually reveal a startling percentage of individuals who are satisfied with their job/career to the extent of regarding it as part of the purpose for their existence! This attitude is pretty rare these days.
I was hoping for some discussion on this. I agree fundamentally with the explanations given as to why this question is not so brutally straight forward. I will think about them further.
However, it still seems that some of them imply that base matter is different somehow with regard to magickal operation. After all, we appear to have the freedom to work against ourselves in other ways. Surely money can be no worse than laziness. Yet, the will for wealth is some how "headed off at the pass," before it can come to fruition and produce its comedy of errors. Perhaps the inertia of the self and the universe is more difficult to go against the more material changes such misdirection might bring? You just never hear about the wayward wiccan that gives away a million dollars. Yet, all is supposedly created with equal ease on the astral plane.
Also, personally it seems that while I can certainly understand abstract financial matters consciously, not all parts of my self use the same standards of accouting. Rather than using an abstract amount of money, a more basic part perhaps uses the standard of ease with which I am able to acquire my "daily bread." Given the choice between a gold bar and a grilled cheese sandwhich... an important part of me is unable to get excited about the gold in the same way. It is simply too abstract. However, this excitability may be fundamental to the magickal operation. Admittedly though, I am an unrefined novice.
Love is the law, love under will.
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@jlpugh said
"While this poll is created in a skeptic's tone, I did expect it to reveal a slighly higher percentage of individuals on the forum who are financially independent than in the general population."
Interesting preconception.
I entirely understand that this is the goal of many. I tend to find it less so among people involved in spiritual work than those not, but that isn't anywhere near a hard either-or division.
For myself, I've made a couple of million dollars in my life, and one of those millions within a very tightly concentrated period of time. I've also lived some years (both before and after) where Ramen and oatmeal were among my best friends. For myself - as a matter of choice, not at all of resignation - I don't see myself retiring until I drop dead. If I suddenly inherited half of Bill Gates' $40 billion dollars, for example, then - while that would change several things in my life, especially about projects I could do to stabilize the Work in Assiah - for myself I would continue with full-time employment. Nothing anchors me to the world like being employed, and that connection is essential to the job I have to do in this life.
Do I think others have to make the same choice? Hell no! Others have other purposes for their life and need to arrange the practical and psychological conditions to support those. But I think it is as short-sighted to assume that financial independence is a necessary component of that as to assume that it isn't. For myself, I'm pretty sure I'm not going to starve.
" It looks like it might actually reveal a startling percentage of individuals who are satisfied with their job/career to the extent of regarding it as part of the purpose for their existence! This attitude is pretty rare these days. "
So is genuine spiritual devotion
Life is about service. People have to find what their avenue of service is. The more that one realizes that our path of self-understanding and self-fulfillment continues to bring us into opportunities of service to each other, the less likely someone is to flee the chance to provide this.
"Surely money can be no worse than laziness."
Money isn't the root of all evil. However, the love of money might be! (At least, one of the roots.) [Ignoring the discussion of the reality of "evil" for poetic purposes.]
It's one's attitude toward it that matters. If you suddenly had a billion dollars, how would this change your life? How would it change how you look at things and make decisions? Etc. Dig deeply. Decide if the interior consequences of this are in support of or contrary to what you personally need for your spiritual Next Step.
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hmm, this has me pondering If i am interrupting my true will with my lofty goals..
I'm glad this topic was raised.
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Hmm, this has me pondering if Thelema is the way to become a multimillionaire like Jim! Money is not something I think about too much, even though I always am in need of it, but this thread just could change all that! Maybe I'll whip up a demon and sell my soul for wealth and fame...
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@Redd Fezz said
"Hmm, this has me pondering if Thelema is the way to become a multimillionaire like Jim! Money is not something I think about too much, even though I always am in need of it, but this thread just could change all that! Maybe I'll whip up a demon and sell my soul for wealth and fame..."
Don't confuse Thelema with magick.
Also, don't confuse "earned a couple of million bucks" with "is a millionarie."
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I was just joking around. Still, it is cool to know you've had such success.
I myself did quite well right out of the college-grad starting gate, but the .com bust and 9.11 really killed my industry. I also haven't been obsessing over money, paying more attention to studying and practicing the occult.
Occasionally, I have fantasies of self-producing books and music, but being a witness to the train wreck that is Rich Shapero's "Wild Animus" **(http://www.amazon.com/Wild-Animus-Novel-Rich-Shapero/dp/0971880107:q8ke4gon) and music, I have seen just how horrific and embarrassing such a dream can turn out to be!
I'm sure when the time is right, success will be my proof (again).
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I am only interested in personal development until I'm at a point where I can teach what I know, or help those around me trying to find the path. As long as I have enough money to get the books I need, the supplies I need, or the education I need in respects to my spiritual development.
I've never been one to covet things. I probably should have entered a monastery years ago, however I haven't yet.
I would study full time except for work if I wasn't married, but such is the point I am at in my life, and so my wife has a purpose, or I don't believe I would be with her.
I believe that if I were to need more money, I would have more money.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
@aum418 said
"Why is there no A & B option? Shows a sort of bias on the pollster's side."
I thought that if the job is a function of the true will, the proceeds would naturally take care of whatever needs to be taken care of. So, B includes A, but A does not include B. But, if one has two jobs... then we do need an A&B. Sorry for the confusion.
Love is the law, love under will.