Thelema without ceremonial magick?
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93
There was (and is) a thread about wether or not is it possible to obtain K&C of the HGA without ceremonial magick. the question was "is it possible to acheive K&C of the HGA without magick?", I do see a difference between magick and ceremonial magick, it's a more restricted area. In a sense, all a thelemite does is magick, any willed act is a magickal act, so it wouldn't be possible.BUT, this leads me to wonder on a broader sense, can there be Thelema without ceremonial magick? Seems to me that thelema is just to live by the Law, there are people who live by the law without having read Crowley or using a robe, cup, wands, etc.
It is in the question of what is your Will that ceremonial magick comes into play. Am I right on this?
But it is possible to know your Will without a robe, an altar, a wand, etc., without the whole apparatus of complicated symbolisms and so on. Or isn't it?
I don't know, it left me wondering. What do you think?
93 93/93
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@asclepi said
"93
There was (and is) a thread about wether or not is it possible to obtain K&C of the HGA without ceremonial magick. the question was "is it possible to acheive K&C of the HGA without magick?", I do see a difference between magick and ceremonial magick, it's a more restricted area. In a sense, all a thelemite does is magick, any willed act is a magical act, so it wouldn't be possible.BUT, this leads me to wonder on a broader sense, can there be Thelema without ceremonial magick? Seems to me that thelema is just to live by the Law, there are people who live by the law without having read Crowley or using a robe, cup, wands, etc.
It is in the question of what is your Will that ceremonial magick comes into play. Am I right on this?
But it is possible to know your Will without a robe, an altar, a wand, etc., without the whole apparatus of complicated symbolisms and so on. Or isn't it?
I don't know, it left me wondering. What do you think?
93 93/93"
93 asclepio,
How are you doing? Good to see you.
Another way to look at it is this way: how many people throughout history have attained without ceremonial magick? How many people attained before the large rise of ceremonial magick in the Victoria/Rennaissance era? The thousands and thousands of Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists... (it seems absurd to say none of these attained to the level of K&C of HGA which Crowley makes analogous to Union with God/Adi-Buddha, and union of Microcosm w/ Macrocosm, etc.)
My point is that I think: Yes - one can attain K&C of HGA w/o ceremonial magick. I think Crowley emphasized this aspect because it balances with the work of Yoga quite well. The internalizing, detached, silence of Yoga is balanced by the externalizing, involved, sound of Magick. Yogis often tend towards undervaluing those things the Magician values (self-sufficiency, Will, strength, conquering) and Magicians often tend to undervalue those things the Yogi values (ego disintegration, surrender, etc.) The truth is that both this Yogi and this Magician would be missing half of the picture.
Yes, K&C of HGA is possible without ceremonial magick, but I think Crowley emphasized Magick because (a) it enabled HIM to attain and (b) it helps balance the common work of Yoga/meditation.
IAO131
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In the broadest sense of the word, magick is life. You could not have Thelema without magick (or anything for that matter) but I do not see ceremonial magick as being a requirement or even yoga. Consider Nietzsche, who is listed as a Gnostic Saint. Although (as far as I know) he did neither ceremonical magick or yoga, he could easily have been said to have discovered his True Will.
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93
Aum418,
Exactly, the K&C of the HGA is a label or symbol a phenomenon that existed before Crowley, so it's not like christian salvation, that only through this historical event and only in a certain way. Thelema seems to be more free, each individual has their own individual path.@Uni_Verse said
"In the broadest sense of the word, magick is life. You could not have Thelema without magick (or anything for that matter) but I do not see ceremonial magick as being a requirement or even yoga. Consider Nietzsche, who is listed as a Gnostic Saint. Although (as far as I know) he did neither ceremonical magick or yoga, he could easily have been said to have discovered his True Will."
Uni_Verse,
You read my mind! ....
It's actually scary.... I agree fully, Magick is life, or better yet, Magick are the only moments when you are trully alive. And yes, Nietzsche did come to mind as a perfect example.It's just that I sense a leap in magick, one moment is just the art and science of causing change to ocurr in conformity with the will, and the theorems that really break it down simply and with common sense, and the next moment
Out of the blue we find ourselves discussing technicalities of complex rituals filled with magical weapons, robes, altars, incence, etc.I feel it's a leap, from very simple to very complex without proper explanation. That always calls my attention when I read Liber ABA, from simplicity to evocating barbarous names while in a black robe with crazy symbols everywhere, not to mention the hours of studying correspondences with the cabala, the tarot, astrology, etc. I don't know, that's my impression anyway.
93 93/93
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Muahaha ! Your mind is an open book to me!
On a more serious note...
@asclepi said
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Magick are the only moments when you are trully alive
"That, I would certainly agree with as a better definition. Yet, here we are already going from "Magick is Life" to something more 'complicated.'
At their base, all the symbols, theorems etcetera are very simple. The 'problem,' in my opinion arises in the discussion of them.
A cup, is a receptacle. Do you really need to know more than that about it? However, were you to say just that, people often take it as you 'not knowing much.' The confusion, in part, is a conflict of egos. There is more to it than that, as each person comes to create their own symbolism of what the cup represents to them.
Ceremonial magick seems to be about overloading the consciousness.
All those symbols, correspondences etcetera make things appear complex, but the beauty lies in the simplicity of what 'actually' is occurring. -
@asclepi said
" It's just that I sense a leap in magick, one moment is just the art and science of causing change to ocurr in conformity with the will, and the theorems that really break it down simply and with common sense, and the next moment Out of the blue we find ourselves discussing technicalities of complex rituals filled with magical weapons, robes, altars, incence, etc.
I feel it's a leap, from very simple to very complex without proper explanation. That always calls my attention when I read Liber ABA, from simplicity to evocating barbarous names while in a black robe with crazy symbols everywhere, not to mention the hours of studying correspondences with the cabala, the tarot, astrology, etc. I don't know, that's my impression anyway."I think the main problem here may be that it has to be admitted that communicating with or teaching at the level of the beginner was never A.C.'s long suit.
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@Aum418 said
"Another way to look at it is this way: how many people throughout history have attained without ceremonial magick? How many people attained before the large rise of ceremonial magick in the Victoria/Rennaissance era? The thousands and thousands of Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists... (it seems absurd to say none of these attained to the level of K&C of HGA which Crowley makes analogous to Union with God/Adi-Buddha, and union of Microcosm w/ Macrocosm, etc.)"
I agree with this entirely. One can go further, and say that many thousands of people have attained over a diversity of cultures and spiritual traditions without having heard of the Cup of Babalon, or the sexual Gnosis, or the Babe of the Abyss, or the City of Pyramids, etc. I don't think that Thelema can be taken out of context, which is its place in a diversity of spiritual disciplines and methods of attainment.
Staying with the Thelemic discipline for a moment, no I don't think that ceremonial magic(k) is a necessity for attaining the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel. It's one amongst a variety of methods which might facilitate the experience or level of initiation, but the most crucial factor is a state of readiness or adhikara.
There's also the further question of what we mean by ceremonial magic(k) anyway. I have rarely dressed in a robe and utilised the weapons. For me, the gestures, the invocations and more crucially the visualisations (including the corollaries across the other senses) are the essence of ritual magic.