Parenting and Will
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Greetings!
I was wondering if any forum members had any insights on parenting with regards to Thelemic philosophy. It seems that one should not interfere with the Will of another yet at the same time are we to assume that children / toddlers / infants are not doing there True Will? How could we know? (Newborn's are certainly far more an expression of the unconscious or subconscious than adults and have not formed ego at this point.)
And yet rules are rules and children must be guided - we cannot allow them to fall into the pool and drown - our protective parenting instinct also kicks in which is a natural part of the Natural order of things.
My wife and I have adopted an approach where we try to inspire open and honest communication with our kids (at age 5 my youngest already knows about sex because he started getting erections and thought his penis was "sick" and going to explode so we explained the whole lot to him). We allow them to express anger towards us, to question us - none of that "respect your parents" nonsense - at least not in a dictatorial sort of way, though it does creep in I'll admit when we're feeling stressed.
This can be trying at times because they will often abuse the freedom or manipulate us. My youngest of course would play video games all day long if we did not enforce a 1 hour rule and while I can appreciate that by the simple alchemical processes of life will bring one to a state of balance I find that it is my duty to instill a sense of balance and discipline.
Any thoughts?
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law,
You ask some good questions. I had a tough time with this one too. Here's a excerpt from Frater Achads "The Anatomy of the Body of God" That might help, though I believe your on the right track.
"Man's teachers have been largely responsible for distorting his mental vision, and they must cease from restricting his natural actions and impeding his natural growth, which would be normally proportioned if the Holy Spirit within were allowed to expand in the proper manner. Man's natural tendency is towards health of body and soul under the action of Spirit. Most of the present systems have led him to believe otherwise from his earliest childhood, thus handicapping him from the start.
The child is, in one sense, the best example of the perfect man or woman, and if the child were allowed to develop Intelligence unhampered by false notions from outside, it would grow to be the true example of the God-Man or Man-God in the majority of cases. We have ruined our children before they have had a chance to come to maturity; our well-meaning, though ignorant, parents and childhood teachers have instilled into our subconscious minds most of the "complexes" which in after life we can only eradicate by bitter toil and bloody sweat."
Love is the Law, Love under Will
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93
My experience has been that children are in a natural state of conflict. This isn't a bad thing, as it is the process by which they learn, grow, and learn all about consequences to actions. Almost by definition, however, if there is conflict, then they are not doing their True Will. This is evident in a very early concept for most children: "I want..." - i.e. children are primarily motivated by desire, not Will. Interfering with a child's (often obsessive) activities violates no rule of nature. They have not learned to become masters of themselves (how many of us have?), nor to a lesser degree, learned to live in a way that their immediate desires do not rule their behavior.
As parents, it is our responsibility to nurture them through conflict and the trials of growing up, hopefully supplying them with tools along the way so that if it is their will to discover their True Will, they are capable and free to do so.
I have two sons. One is nine, the other a year old. With the one year old, everything is nurture, provide, care for... with the nine year old, we try always to: allow him to make mistakes so that he can learn from them, provide ample opportunity for him to act on his own initiative and take responsibility for his actions, encourage him to take no action without being mindful of it and when he acts without thinking and some undesirable consequence follows - to think about it... of course, he's nine, so these ideas are a work in progress, and not absolutely enforced.
Must let kids be kids, but can't let them fly off bridges because in their imagination they can fly.
The corollary is, that as parents, we have to be careful so as not to take away their ability to fly in the process.
There should be no question of authority. It isn't that a parent should be a dictator, but that a child should be respectful of they who provide love, shelter, food, and knowledge. If that respect exists, then parental authority is implicit. I have told my nine year old a few times that if he doesn't respect me or the rules of my house, he is free to go elsewhere. He actually took me up on the offer and left for several hours... stayed out until well after dark... and then showed up at the house when it got cold and he got hungry. "Sorry Dad..." If I had been restricting his True Will, and it had been his Will to leave my house and care, who could have stopped him? Instead, he just didn't want to do what I asked of him, and he didn't want to be cold and hungry either.
I love both of my kids and will encourage them in whatever they pursue in the world... I will not tolerate them pursuing things which cause hatred, strife, violence, or destruction. Just because "there is no God but man" does not mean the concept of morality is dead.
Good luck, from one parent to another.
93/93
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I agree with Perigrinus' answer. Along these lines, Liber Aleph has a discussion of True Will and children, as well as surrounding discussion of True Will in a broader context.
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Thanks for the responses so far.
Slightly conflicting ideas in the two posts but I guess they could be reconciled in some way - perhaps in that ego development gives rise to conflict yet newborns possess no ego or very little sense of ego. I think by the time kids are toddlers I would have to agree that there is much conflict.
My wife and I did a course recently which we found quite enlightening in terms of human relationships and a conscious approach to living - I would say mostly based on Jungian concepts. the course is not just theoretical but relies on cognitive processes that include ritual. I found many of the precepts in the course to fall in line with Thelemic principles even though the creator is not that familiar with Thelema (He is familiar with Crowley and the GD but I think he abhors the idea of a self-proclaimed prophet and probably looked no further). This in turn gives rise to the idea that Thelemic concepts are indeed in line with some form of universal / solar law. (I have encountered them in other teachings too - as divulged in my other post on the forum here).
Anyway, he gives some "pointers on parenting" as follows:
Some thoughts on Parenting.
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Be very clear as to why you are having children. It is a 20 year one sided commitment. They owe you nothing. -
Do some study about who and what you are. That way you can be the guide and mentor you have undertaken to be. -
Treat them as you would like to be treated. Would you like a 4m tall giant yelling at you? -
Be fair – both in the fact as well as the perception. Their standards are not the same as yours. -
Keep your word. Be VERY careful what to say to them. They have a disconcerting habit of taking you literally. -
Be present 24/7. This not easy – sorry about that! -
Your task is to create a space where they can become who they are, not whom you want them to be. -
Watch out for the transmission of your fears. -
Be prepared to work hard. -
Have fun.
You can view the original on his site here:
www.foundationsa.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=44&Itemid=62
I think points 2 and 7 would resound specifically with Thelemic philosophy. Point 8 as well since by instilling our fears into our children we effectively create complexes which they need to overcome later in life. I suppose this is akin to the Biblical "sins of the fathers" that perpetuate for seven generations.
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93,
"Slightly conflicting ideas in the two posts but I guess they could be reconciled in some way"
Welcome to the study of Thelema
'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law'
'Every man and ever woman is a star'
Each person has their own course or path, point-of-view if you will and some times they don't agree. That's the beauty of Thelema. No one is nessassarily 'wrong' per se it just may be wrong for another.
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93,
Crowley wrote a short piece On the Education of Children in 1921... Here are some excerpts:
- Each child must develop its own Individuality, and Will, disregarding alien Ideals.
- Nothing is taught except How to think for oneself.
- It is treated as a responsible and independent being, encouraged in self-reliance, and respected for self-assertion.
- Respect its individuality! Submit all life for its inspection, without comment.
- Truth teaches understanding, freedom develops will, experience con fers resourcefulness, independence inspires self-confidence. Thereby success becomes certain.
- Every child is God of its own Universe. Education develops control thereof.
- Let them witness birth, marriage, death; let them hear poetry, philos ophy, history; compel apprehension but not its articulate expression. Make them face cliffs, billows animals, finding their own formula of con quest.
- Let children educate themselves to be themselves. Those who train them to standards cripple and deform them. Alien ideals impose parasitic per versions.
- Education must accustom the mind to meet all eventualities, inter preting, judging, and reacting as its individual necessity demands.
- Evolution demands exceptional individuals, fitter to heir environment than their fellows. Species prosper by imitating efficient eccentrics.
etc. etc. etc.
IAO131
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93 Aum,
"* Nothing is taught except How to think for oneself"
Are we to assume that a child can teach them selves the sciences? calculus? I see where AC is goinig here but the basics need to be taught only in a free and non-bias atmosphere.
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@phoinix93 said
"93 Aum,
"* Nothing is taught except How to think for oneself"
Are we to assume that a child can teach them selves the sciences? calculus? I see where AC is goinig here but the basics need to be taught only in a free and non-bias atmosphere."
No but I think it could be a warning to not force say an overtly artistically inclined child to learn calculus. If the child has some passion for math then calculus will naturally follow.
Sad thing is that I don't think there is an education system in the world that would cater for this. We send our kids to the Montesorri school which does encourage a free learning environment to a degree. I've heard good things about the Rudolf Steiner school or it could have been the Waldorf school. The problem is not so much with the schools available but rather the educational systems at a national level with which they need to comply.
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@phoinix93 said
"93 Aum,
"* Nothing is taught except How to think for oneself"
Are we to assume that a child can teach them selves the sciences? calculus? I see where AC is goinig here but the basics need to be taught only in a free and non-bias atmosphere."
93,
Crowley constantly talks about teaching things to people who show an aptitude for it (this includes, importantly, occultism/ceremonial magick). Although many skills are useful for everyone (basic arithmetic, critical thinking, reading skills) there are many that are only useful for specialists (I learned calculus back in high school and have yet to use it... but it was an interesting mental exercise). I would think Crowley would expose children to all the greats in literature and science and humanities and allow the child to guide their direction...
IAO131
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@Aum418 said
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@phoinix93 said
"93 Aum,"* Nothing is taught except How to think for oneself"
Are we to assume that a child can teach them selves the sciences? calculus? I see where AC is goinig here but the basics need to be taught only in a free and non-bias atmosphere."
93,
Crowley constantly talks about teaching things to people who show an aptitude for it (this includes, importantly, occultism/ceremonial magick). Although many skills are useful for everyone (basic arithmetic, critical thinking, reading skills) there are many that are only useful for specialists (I learned calculus back in high school and have yet to use it... but it was an interesting mental exercise). I would think Crowley would expose children to all the greats in literature and science and humanities and allow the child to guide their direction...
IAO131"
Agreed!
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In Book 4 on page 84 Aliester Crowley says "This capacity for storing away facts is compatible with actual imbecility.This is the great fault of modern education-a child is stuffed with facts, and no attempt is made to explain their connection and bearing. The result is that even the facts themselves are soon forgotten"
Sending ure child to a slave training facility, a sheeple programming center is what the masses do because they are slaves, surely a Thelemite should know better as tons of hidden information in books about how K-12 was designed to dumb down the herd to keep them bewildered ,answering to Bells, smart enuf to do a job but not smart enuf to see how the States is really run, how our shadow govt rules, with lies, brainwashing and indoctrination.
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A child that is homeschooled and reading almost 5 books a week has a better chance of finding their true will and not being a slave.
Surely sending ure child into a slave training facility with the herd to answer to Bells and forced memorization is obviously against what Crowley would have believed
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I sent my children to our local public school. I live in a niche community, and our schools have less then twenty students per grade average, ninety percent of the teachers, staff and administrators live in the community, and almost one hundred percent of the parents were Involved in the PTA and BOE.
Yet, my I saw such a one eighty in my childrens self image, confidence, personal security, and inquiry level in just two years of education, that we decided I would not open my holistic healthcare organization, but take responsibility for the lives that I brought into this world.
I knew that the beautiful, capable, strong, independent spirits I had brought forth, and were taking care of, would be transformed into mere shells, shadows if I kept them in school.
I tried for two years to work with in the system, at the schools, with the teachers as a volunteer and aid to bring about positive changes, for all the students. But it was too much for me alone. And my children were heavily succeeding.
I will fully admit that because of my personalty, my beliefs and world view, my children felt torn. I would read the assignments, for example, that Columbus Discovered America, and would with out batting an eye let my kids know that was wrong, and even if it was in print, or that an adult said it....doesn't mean that it is true and should not be questioned.
Sometimes, for a brief moment, I think I should teach. Give them spelling lists, and geography quizes, make them learn some patriotic songs or do a million times tables.
But, it's only a brief moment, a moment that I slip into the past, or project into the future. When I am present, with my kids and we are exploring our world, living our lives, enjoying each other, I know I am right.
It is my responsibility to myself that I have integrity in all that I do. Sending my kids away from me for hours a day, to memorize things, eat bad food, listen to gossip and need materialistic trappings is not who I am. My children are an extension of me after all, and I know that I despised most everything about the public school system.I have a list of things that I expect my children to do everyday, or to do their best at completing. I expect my children to become healthy adults, by modeling to them positive healthy behaviors myself. My children are required by me to spend an hour outside every day. They need to take care of their bodies and their property, cleaning themselves, their rooms, their toys. I instruct them in Physical education, hopefully soon they will want to do yoga with me. They cook, and have house hold chores that rotate.
I am also the ScoutMaster of the CubScouts, and Junior Girl Scouts so I use that program to bring socialiazation and iimportant ideals and morals to them, ideals such as being honest, having reverence, serving others, being cheerful, having a thrift nature, conservation.... Ideals that I feel are important to lead a happy, healthy successful life.
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@Veronica something happened to me recently and i almost felt like ,just giving up , i cant say what this was but when i read ure entry something about it had me sitting at the computer crying, there are so many people that raised me that were soulless and unloving and ure comment reminded me that there are really still people out there that think like me, and everything is gonna be ok. thank you , a million times over, Thanks.
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@ACwroteAzoetiaAt19 said
"@Veronica something happened to me recently and i almost felt like ,just giving up , i cant say what this was but when i read ure entry something about it had me sitting at the computer crying, there are so many people that raised me that were soulless and unloving and ure comment reminded me that there are really still people out there that think like me, and everything is gonna be ok. thank you , a million times over, Thanks."
You are very welcome, I am glad it resonated with you, and I hope your darkness has passed.
Do you know the song about Three Little Birds?
Every things gonna be alright... -
Thelema and raising kids? When I start a family, I would put them in the same sorts of inner city public schools I went to so that they can hang out with the neighborhood kids. They will basically go there to play hopscotch and join a clique. If they don't get along, we'll try different settings and maybe get a 'homeschooling certificate' so my mom can watch them from a distance while they run loose. My kids will go to an Asian 'Saturday school' to learn actual academics, since our school quality is abysmal. I'm going to be the cool mom who doesn't have rules or curfews, and encourages kids to play Ouija at sleepovers.
The purpose of parents is to act as a favorable interface between children, who are deprived of legal rights, and the adult world that judges them. Parents need to advocate for their kids before the law, teach them how not to get beat up, how to deconstruct the kyriarchy, and how to Take Care of Business in an often-hostile world. Parents must be willing to march down to the school and push the staff around a bit if there's any nonsense going on (like having to put one's bag through a scanner, cell phone and metal objects bans, being locked down between classes, staff hassling kids for carrying a Swiss army knife etc). Parents need to advocate against youth curfews, truancy officers etc, and bail the kid out of jail if necessary. Even social stuff, like getting into 21+ clubs when they're in HS. Otherwise, the kids are on their own. They do what they please except for disrespecting adults. They have to take responsibility if they're victimized by anyone, with the knowledge that parents will be on their side, with a good lawyer, when they beat up the bully. Similarly, they have to take responsibility if they're caught e.g. drinking outside the home when the 'world' considers them 'underage'. The material rights are access to a stipend, home office of whatever nature, legal defense, online bank account, eventual initiation sponsorship, and vehicle if applicable. A larger stipend will be given after they've proven capable of a full-time job. The responsibilities involve support, as much as practicable, of the extended family in the future. Not myself, but the ragtag low-income individuals that will invariably be connected to the child. My family, BF's family, nutty neighbors, etc. -
Will and Love. I have had this in my brain for along time. I always assume a respect for my children's will. And train them accordingly. Ask.questions that direct from both? If I see or detect selfish will, something not moving outward for the good of everybody they are in direct contact with, I ask.questions about that love that should have been there. Coaching along those lines get children that respect and love you. They will talk to you, when they become teenagers, if they don't feel that, they don't understand mentality. Because they know I will try to understand their will for.doing things, the intent for the.action versus the social morality of it.