LBRP
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@zeph said
"What's the link to Uriel that apparently has Uriel standing in for Hanial during the LBRP?"
It's just a traditional statement - no real explanation given, and mostly linked to the Pentagram Ritual - that Uriel is in the place of Haniel.
I suppose (depending on the color scale) that there is that green thing. I think they're both Irish angels
Besides, Haniel isn't an angel attributable to Earth so wouldn't have been appropriate there. -
@zeph said
"When at the intersection of Samekh and Peh, before you is Tiphareth (Sphere of the Sun, and of Raphael), behind you is Yesod (Sphere of the Moon, and of Gabriel), at your right hand is Hod (Sphere of Mercury, and of Michael), and at your left hand is Netzach (Sphere of Venus, and of Haniel).
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Further, and aside from the archangels and their drinking habits, note that this is an elemental ritual."
If you see the LRP in these ways, then how do reconcile the two? Which sephira serves as earth?
It seems so much easier and more elegant to me to see it as all taking place within Malkuth. You don't have to swap archangel positions or make any substitutions between Uriel and Haniel. You can also keep the elemental focus if you want, but a focus on the elements within Malkuth, rather than the "greater" elements associated with the four lower sephiroth.
Does it even matter?
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@sasha said
"If you see the LRP in these ways, then how do reconcile the two? Which sephira serves as earth?"
It's really not an either/or choice. The two ideas coexist. There are multiple paradoxes from this since, for example, Mikhael that is Archangel of Fire is not the same as Mikhael that is Archangel of Mercury and Hod, even though the two schemas both put Mikhael in the same place.
"It seems so much easier and more elegant to me to see it as all taking place within Malkuth."
I don't think that's a conflict, either. Remember, this ritual was a Golden Dawn invention. In the Golden Dawn, the entirety of the First Order (below Portal) consisted of sub-Sephirah in Malkuth. Therefore, saying that it is laid out on the tree just below Parokheth, and saying that it is "all in Malkuth" are - in the scheme for which it was created - pretty much the same thing. (One gets into trouble when one starts trying to interpret this ritual outside of the context for which it was custom-created.)
"You don't have to swap archangel positions or make any substitutions between Uriel and Haniel. You can also keep the elemental focus if you want, but a focus on the elements within Malkuth, rather than the "greater" elements associated with the four lower sephiroth."
Well, you have the problem that three of the four archangels are in the wrong place if you do it as the Elements as arranged within Malkuth.
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@Bastkity said
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I don't think that's a conflict, either. Remember, this ritual was a Golden Dawn invention. In the Golden Dawn, the entirety of the First Order (below Portal) consisted of sub-Sephirah in Malkuth."Fair enough. But Crowley included Tiphareth and not Malkuth, so he refers to a different set of Sephiroth.
@Bastkity said
"Well, you have the problem that three of the four archangels are in the wrong place if you do it as the Elements as arranged within Malkuth."
But it does follow the "outer order" (and, therefore, all in Malkuth in terms of grades and consciousness) elemental atributions of the Golden Dawn.
I have a suspicion that the writers of this ritual either didn't intend for any sephirothic (except maybe all in Malkuth) or elemental attributions or else just didn't think through all of the possible implications of the ritual.
Does anyone know when the earliest mention of elemental attributions for this ritual came into print? Regardie says it in The Tree of Life in, I think, 1932. But he doesn't say it explicitly in The Middle Pillar (1938), where he only clearly associates the elements with the archangels.
Funny... Probably more people do this ritual than any other and, as far as I know, nobody knows who wrote it in its modern form and people disagree substantially on its purpose and meaning.
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@sasha said
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@Bastkity said
"I don't think that's a conflict, either. Remember, this ritual was a Golden Dawn invention. In the Golden Dawn, the entirety of the First Order (below Portal) consisted of sub-Sephirah in Malkuth."Fair enough. But Crowley included Tiphareth and not Malkuth, so he refers to a different set of Sephiroth."
...Just as the First Order temple floorplan, though encompassed in Malkuth for the most part, included Tiphereth as the dais in the east, i.e., incorporated the idea of that which exceeded the rest of the framework.
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@Bastkity said
"Well, you have the problem that three of the four archangels are in the wrong place if you do it as the Elements as arranged within Malkuth."But it does follow the "outer order" (and, therefore, all in Malkuth in terms of grades and consciousness) elemental atributions of the Golden Dawn."
Not sure what you mean by this. Can you elaborate, please?
"Does anyone know when the earliest mention of elemental attributions for this ritual came into print?"
"Print" may not be the word, since the earliest manuscripts were only circulated privately under obligation. The elemental attributions date to the earliest use of the ritual, i.e., 1887-88 in Golden Dawn Neophyte papers, and the elemental attributions to the directions are present throughout the whole model of the rituals contained in the original cipher manuscrips.
"Funny... Probably more people do this ritual than any other and, as far as I know, nobody knows who wrote it in its modern form and people disagree substantially on its purpose and meaning."
There's no significant mystery who wrote it. Fragments of it (but not a completed ritual) appear in Eliphas Levi's writings. The ritual itself is not in the cipher manuscripts, although the form of drawing the elemental pentagrams are there. There is every indication, therefore, that the ritual was written either by Mathers, or (less likely) possibly by Westcott (possibly by Mathers with Westcott input) based on Levi's public writings.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Sasha said
"But it does follow the "outer order" (and, therefore, all in Malkuth in terms of grades and consciousness) elemental atributions of the Golden Dawn."
Not sure what you mean by this. Can you elaborate, please?"
The outer order rituals put air in the east, fire in the south, water in the west, and earth in the north. As opposed to the zodiacal attributions, with fire in the east, etc, like with the hexagram ritual.
@Jim Eshelman said
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"Print" may not be the word, since the earliest manuscripts were only circulated privately under obligation. The elemental attributions date to the earliest use of the ritual, i.e., 1887-88 in Golden Dawn Neophyte papers, and the elemental attributions to the directions are present throughout the whole model of the rituals contained in the original cipher manuscrips."I meant the first mention of attributing the elements to the LBRP. I assume you refer to the grade rituals.
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@sasha said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"@Sasha said
"But it does follow the "outer order" (and, therefore, all in Malkuth in terms of grades and consciousness) elemental atributions of the Golden Dawn."
Not sure what you mean by this. Can you elaborate, please?"
The outer order rituals put air in the east, fire in the south, water in the west, and earth in the north. As opposed to the zodiacal attributions, with fire in the east, etc, like with the hexagram ritual."
Right. I think the point was that if you use the Malkuth arrangement, then you'd expect Air in the East, Water in the South, Earth in the West, and Fire in the North.
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@Jim Eshelman said
""Print" may not be the word, since the earliest manuscripts were only circulated privately under obligation. The elemental attributions date to the earliest use of the ritual, i.e., 1887-88 in Golden Dawn Neophyte papers, and the elemental attributions to the directions are present throughout the whole model of the rituals contained in the original cipher manuscrips."I meant the first mention of attributing the elements to the LBRP. I assume you refer to the grade rituals."
I'd have to look at the source documents, but all of these emerged together concurrently (through 4=7) in 1887 and, actually, were already established in the cipher manuscripts from some time earlier.
Additionally, the attributions of the archangels to the Elements is at least centuries old, and the distribution of them - the exact language, "Before me, Raphael; behind me, Gabriel," etc. is from a Jewish children's prayer that is at least a couple of thousand years old.
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There are probably several - I can't think of any offhand, but you could Google it.
But the particular form of these may vary with the exact tradition you're part of. If you're part of a specific training system, you should check with your teachers for the exact forms to use.
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The key features are classic winged angelic images, with appropriately colored robes - yellow, red, blue, and black.
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On the issue of the Sephirothic attributions from the "standing at the intersection of Samekh and Peh," I had completely forgotten - until I reread it tonight - how much I had played this up in my poem "Locked in Love" which describes the Pentagram Ritual.
In addition to the names of the Archangels, the attributions of the elements and directions, etc., note how the ideas of Tiphereth, Yesod, Hod, and Netzach (respectively) are worked into these four couplets:
Now, before me the healing dawn light Wears the rose of the rising sun’s beauty, While behind me the Foundation’s might Bears the grail and the tale of life’s duty. God’s ambassador flames on my right, Scintillation elating the mind, While the backlit and boreal night On my left is the passion that binds me.``` -
@Jim Eshelman said
"But Aiwass is of universal value. Aiwass is 93=418 - the direct messenger of HPK, the bearer of The Book of the Law to humanity. He falls not only in the category of Crowley's HGA, but of a high-ranking "secret Chief" with a specific purpose of communicating the current dispensation to humanity.
As such, vibrating the name aligns one with the ideas of 93 and 418 (among others) and with the Thelemic dispensation in general."
From the above I take it that you agree with the practice of vibrating Aiwass at the Tiphareth centre during the QC. I like the idea of aligning the ritual to the Thelemic dispensation but the thought of using the name of anothers HGA instead of my own (which I don't know) makes me feel a little uncomfortable.
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Understood - which is the reason most of the above discussion has taken place thus far.
But you've already quoted my response to that.
I might add that all holy Names are simply formulae - concatenations of letters and sounds with a specific vibratory pattern. Vibrating Aiwass is no more limited to Aleister Crowley than vibrating the Tetragrammaton is limited to the high priests of the old Hebrew religion.
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@Redd Fezz said
"1.) the author instructs to step forward with the right foot for the Enterer and puts his right forefinger to his lips for Harpocrates. In Duquette's "Magick of Aleister Crowley," he has these listed as left foot and left finger. Most places I've read say not to drop the right arm which has just created and pierced the pentagram, so it seems natural that the finger should be of the left hand, but..."
These details (and in particular the left-right details) vary with specific traditions - for example, specific schools - or, outside of formal training environments, they differ with individuals. They are completely inconsequential except to the extent that they have distinctive meaning within a particular school, Order, etc., to which one has committed.
"2.) Cornelius says to point the dagger at the floor, following the sign of Harpocrates, and draw a burning circle (not white light, flames) from quarter to quarter. So, unlike most LBRP instructions I've read, he is not saying to connect the center of the pentagrams with white light, he is creating a circle on the ground. "
These are probably just his personal recommendations and, again, are minor compared to the main points. If he's actually saying to draw the circle on the ground, then that does vary one very critical point sufficiently that I would no longer call it the LBRP but, rather, "a variation of," "derived from," etc. It's not a bad variation for particular purposes, btw (though I'd accomplish the same thing a bit differently) - I'm just noting that it's definitely nonstandard but also definitely makes sense. In fact, if he's doing some form of evocation, one usually would want to draw just such a hard circle on the floor, though (as I mentioned a moment ago) I'd go about it differently. (The "enforced, accentuated duality" of an absolute boundary - inside the circle vs. outside - is part of the psychological and magical technique of evocation, a rather critical part of the method I think.)
"3.) During the Qabalistic Cross, he says to touch the right shoulder with the left hand when vibrating ve-Geburah and the left shoulder with the right hand when vibrating ve-Gedulah."
Again, personal, stylization. Ultimately of no great consequence, though this would be especially attractive to ex-Catholics trying to go out of their way not to remind themselves of Catholic training.
"This is the Micro/Macrocosmic part of the LBRP related to the 2nd half where Netzach and Hod seem to be on the wrong sides."
They aren't on the wrong sides at all, though I like your word "seems."
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@Redd Fezz said
"I guess what I thought of was that you use your left finger for silence whilest never dropping your blade for the main reason of NOT breaking the circle."
But what if you're left-handed and doing the ritual all with the left hand?
And I definitely don't think there's any need not to break the circle. It's necessarily broken (or, rather, interrupted) several times, e.g., when you draw each successive pentagram. As long as it is continuous by the time you're finished, all is well.
"For the crossing arms bit, it made me feel less Christian than the arms outstretched bit of the LBRP where you name the archangels... I thought of the crossing arms more like the center of the Unicursal Hexagram, which is more like an X and the Mark of the Beast, perfectly located over the Tiphereth center, no?"
Sure (except I don't see it as Unicursal Hexagram since that would require formulating a hexagram on the whole body, and that's definitely contrary to the formula of all standard forms of the ritual). More to the point, it's emulative of the sign traditionally called Osiris Slain. And it's the way that Aurum Solis teaches their LBR-like ritual. Nothing wrong with it per se, I was just making the point that I've seen several people with Catholic training mildly freak at "crossing themselves" in a way reminiscent of their Catholic upbringing.
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"They aren't on the wrong sides at all, though I like your word "seems.""Seems was a key word there. They seem to be suddenly on the wrong sides until, by Cornelius explanation, you realize that you went from backing into the tree to facing the tree, which recalls the "crossed arms" bit earlier."
Oh, that's what he meant by "standing on the back of A.Q." We just call that "backing into the Tree."
Yes, "backing into the Tree" is part of the standard discussion / explanation of this." -
@Redd Fezz said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"But what if you're left-handed and doing the ritual all with the left hand?"That would just be a simple switcheroo, wouldn't it? "
Not necessarily. Some Orders, descended from or influenced by the Golden Dawn tradition, are quite precise about whether a left or right finger is used for that sign, and the one chosen has specific doctrinal meaning within that system. Changing the finger isn't an issue. So, whether you're in a "use the right hand" group and are right-handed, or in a "use the left hand" group and are left-handed, there would be issue to address.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"And I definitely don't think there's any need not to break the circle. It's necessarily broken (or, rather, interrupted) several times, e.g., when you draw each successive pentagram. As long as it is continuous by the time you're finished, all is well."
Drawing the pentagrams doesn't seem to me to interrupt or break the circle; more like they are incorporated in the unbroken line, knotted and secured, no?"The ritual very specifically has four quarters drawn individually, and seemlessly connected.
"Bringing the 'drawing hand" to your lips for Silence and then pointing it at the floor and then drawing a pentagram perpendicular to the floor seem much less fluid somehow."
Whatever.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Sure (except I don't see it as Unicursal Hexagram since that would require formulating a hexagram on the whole body, and that's definitely contrary to the formula of all standard forms of the ritual). "Huh? It is?! I thought the macro/microcosm was clearly represented in teh 0=2 formula of the Unicursal Hexagram."
There are three primary standard variants of the hexagram's placement in the Pentagram Ritual. One version (the G.D. original, reflected in the A.'.A.'. 0=0 robe) has the pentagram "before" one and the hexagram "behind" one. The second variation has the hexagram "in the column," usually visualized as one above the head and one beneath the feet. The third variant has it "within me," or "in the center," where it is centered interiorly as the heart center. My statement is that none of these is consistent with overlaying a hexagram (of any kind) on the (interior or, expecially, exterior) human body overall.
"The way I see it, it works perfectly as the first part of the formula is sort of an inversion of the second as the magician initially faces one way (Geburah on the right = "backing into the Tree") and then faces the other (or both at the same time) finally facing the influence of the Sun;on the "intersection of the paths of Samekh and Pé, you are facing Tiphareth, thus on your right hand is Netzach, on your left hand Hod, and behind you Yesod."
You're welcome to make up anything you want
- but there is no inversion - one is facing the Sun from the first moment, since the floor-plan - standing at the intersection of Samekh and Peh - is Tiphereth before, Yesod behind, Netzach to the left, and Hod to the right. -
@Redd Fezz said
"Okay, so during the QC you are not facing the Sun. I guess this is not part of the LBRP, really."
The Tree of Life exists in two dimensions, actually. You are facing the Sun before you - standing at the intersection of S & P, facing Tiphereth. You are also backed into the Tree, so that Tiphereth is at your heart.