The Magical Battle of Britain
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@Her said
"Maybe the Nazi connection to Crowley is connected to all the stuff about Martha Kuntzel and her claim that she tried to get Hitler to accept the Book of the Law."
That's it! Only, I think I remembered it (probably wrongly) that Hitler found inspiration/evidence for his ideas in Liber AL. Which is not all that surprising or unbelievable to me since many different types of people with clashing outlooks on life identify with that book. I wonder if they're opinion of the book changes as they grow and change. I know this is true for me.
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Redd Fezz: The supposedly best biography of Crowley is Perdurabo by Richard Kaczynski. I've got about 100 pp left in it and I think it's awesomely well informed. According to an unconfirmed source Kaczynski also practises magick so there's no meaningless scepticism in it. It's in any case an entertaining story and Crowley was a genuine genius imo. To accomplish so much! To be The Best mountain climber, The Best chess player and The Magician überlord AND poet and writer... man... Well, he wasn't the world champion in chess, but that was probably only because he didn't want to when he saw what goofy people outdid that category.
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"*Martha Kuntzel had been overjoyed when Adolph Hitler became Fuhrer on August 19, 1933. She had considered Hitler her Magical Son, and intended to convert him to Thelema because The Book of the Law claimed that the first nation to accept it would rule the world. Although she attempted to get a copy of The Book of the Law to Hitler in the 1920s - and Crowley heavily annotated a copy of Hitler Speaks(1939), claiming references to Thelema were interspersed throughout its pages - this was certainly not the case. Hitler's ideology was formed long before Kuntzel entered the picture. The Nazis began gunning for magicians in 1933, first banning fortune-telling, next confiscating occult books and outlawing secret societies, and finally high-ranking occultists from Freemasonry to the Fraternitas Saturni. Eventually, Kuntzel's own papers - including the stock of Crowley paintings stored with her after the Berlin exhibit - were seized and destroyed. Although A.C. initially supported the idea of converting a political leader to Thelema, his support of Hitler quickly dissipated when the Chancellor showed his true colors. *
PERDURABO ~ Richard Kaczynski Ph.D"
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@Her said
"
"Although she attempted to get a copy of The Book of the Law to Hitler in the 1920s - and Crowley heavily annotated a copy of Hitler Speaks(1939), claiming references to Thelema were interspersed throughout its pages - this was certainly not the case.PERDURABO ~ Richard Kaczynski Ph.D"
"Wow, so Crowley himself wrote notes to one of Hitler's writings ("Hitler Speaks"), claiming references to Thelema? He was connected with everything, wasn't he? Jeezola. I guess he was probably just trying to play to Hitler's ego and get him to accept Thelema. I guess he also didn't know what a creep he was trying to convert.
"Perdurabo" was the one I was leaning toward, so I guess that's the one I'll get.
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Crowley's connection with the Third Reich is very slight. The same can't be said for other people that Crowley knew.
Major General J.F.C. Fuller a one time close friend of Crowley's and editor of The Equinox, until the time of the Jones versus the Looking Glass trial, was the only Englishman to be invited to Hitler's 50th birthday party and he was one of the key men behind the development of the stratergy called "Blitzkrieg".
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"Malaclypse wrote:
According to an unconfirmed source Kaczynski also practises magick so there's no meaningless scepticism in it."Dr. Kaczynski is a Thelemite. If you are interested in hearing some interviews of Dr. Kaczynski checkout -
Thelema Coast to Coast #03: May 7, 2005,
Thelema Coast to Coast #19, January 22, 2006, and
Thelema Coast to Coast #23: April 5, 2006 -
@Malaclypse said
"I just stumbled upon the book on the web but couldn't find anything extensive about it. Does anyone here know what effects it had on the war?"
Yes, if you judge success based on a desired result coinciding with a magical act intending it, then the work was one of the most successful magical workings on record.
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@Redd Fezz said
"Who had the V? The Americans or the Germans?"
The British. Crowley was conscripted to provide them with a magical symbol.
He related it to Victory, but he privately wrote that it was meant to establish the name V.V.V.V.V and the horns of The Beast as the magical power protecting and otherwise aiding Britain.
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@Redd Fezz said
"Only, I think I remembered it (probably wrongly) that Hitler found inspiration/evidence for his ideas in Liber AL."
Probably not wrongly. Crowley clearly believed Hitler was building the Third Reich using Liber Legis as his reference book. It had been placed in his hands by Martha Kuntzel, 8=3 A.'.A.'. and Hitler's magical mentor at one point, based on her belief that the nation which first adopted Liber L. as the foundation of its government and society would rule the world.
However, his understanding of it broke down in some crucial points - and, at about the same time, his empire started showing its flaws and weaknesses more openly.
In Crowley's personal copy of Hitler Speaks - a book written by one of Hitler's inner circle members, recording his actual conversations (in contrast to his public persona), Crowley wrote voluminous marginalia. Much of it was line-for-line tracking of Hitler's soliloquies against Crowley's writings (same ideas in the same sequence, sometimes nearly verbatim even after dual translating). Eventually he tracked the Liber L. references, found a direct reference to a woman in Hitler's inner circle that he believed he recognized as Kuntzel, and sited points where Hitler's understanding of Thelema faltered and he started going down the wrong track.
It's also in these marginalia that he describes his role in establishing some of the primary magical symbols of the war. For example, Ludendorf came to him a few years after WW I and said they were working with a promising young politician who was looking for a magical symbol of great power that had Norse mythological associations. Crowley suggested he use an Aryan (i.e., northern India) symbol called the Svastika which was sometimes called "the hammer of Thor" - something generally not known outside of the Golden Dawn. The rest was - literally - history!
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@Redd Fezz said
"Wow, so Crowley himself wrote notes to one of Hitler's writings ("Hitler Speaks")"
Ah, hadn't seen this when I wrote my last answer. (In fact, I didn't think anyone else knew about it!)
BTW, having read Crowley's original copy front-to-back a couple of times, I disagree with the biographer's assessment.
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@Her said
"Crowley's connection with the Third Reich is very slight. The same can't be said for other people that Crowley knew.
Major General J.F.C. Fuller a one time close friend of Crowley's and editor of The Equinox, until the time of the Jones versus the Looking Glass trial, was the only Englishman to be invited to Hitler's 50th birthday party and he was one of the key men behind the development of the stratergy called "Blitzkrieg"."
Yes - and you left out that he was the original Cancellarius of the A.'.A.'..
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So... Nobody associated with Thelema thought the Nazi party was a good idea once things started getting underway, I hope? I seriously hope Crowley wasn't writing in the margins anything about race or war.
Yikes, I guess no such luck. This link seems to suggest Fuller knew what he was getting into:
rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2006/02/jfc-fullers-army.htmlThe replies (especially the first reply by the professor) are interesting, too.
See, it's crap like this...
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Uh boy...
John Symmonds has Crowley remarking:
"I never met... someone so demonic as Herr Hitler. Why do you think I spend so much time with him? And come when he bids me? I tell you only the universe can prevail against Hitler. But the universe for the present doesn’t seem to be interested; though Hitler is the enemy of the universe, that is to say of God; for the universe is only God’s instrument. It is as if God said, “Let mankind learn a lesson; they need to open their eyes a little wider. Hitler will do that for them. Just wait. They will see things that men have never seen or heard before—such horrors that there will be no word in the German or any other language to describe them.’ That is what the demonic is when it appears in a very ordinary person, a man of the people, someone the intellectuals are contemptuous of but not the masses. With an uncanny instinct, they know who he is.”
...
Hitler: “And are you an angel of darkness?”
Crowley: “You’ll find out in good time all about me. For the present, I’ll say this: if I were an angel of light, you wouldn’t want to know me.” -
@Redd Fezz said
"So... Nobody associated with Thelema thought the Nazi party was a good idea once things started getting underway, I hope? I seriously hope Crowley wasn't writing in the margins anything about race or war."
Nothing about race. Could well have been about war. (It's been too long for me to remember, and I'd have to dig to find my copy.)
"Yikes, I guess no such luck. This link seems to suggest Fuller knew what he was getting into:
rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2006/02/jfc-fullers-army.html"FUller was a military man, expert in tank warfare. I always thought he knew what he was getting into, but that was only a guestimate.
"See, it's crap like this..."
...that what?
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@Redd Fezz said
"Uh boy...
John Symmonds has Crowley remarking:
"I never met... someone so demonic as Herr Hitler. Why do you think I spend so much time with him? And come when he bids me? I tell you only the universe can prevail against Hitler. But the universe for the present doesn’t seem to be interested; though Hitler is the enemy of the universe, that is to say of God; for the universe is only God’s instrument. It is as if God said, “Let mankind learn a lesson; they need to open their eyes a little wider. Hitler will do that for them. Just wait. They will see things that men have never seen or heard before—such horrors that there will be no word in the German or any other language to describe them.’ That is what the demonic is when it appears in a very ordinary person, a man of the people, someone the intellectuals are contemptuous of but not the masses. With an uncanny instinct, they know who he is.”"
I don't under stand the "Uh boy" part.
I don't trust Symmonds on anything he writes about Crowley unless I can confirm it elsewhere - but the above quote sounds representative.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I don't trust Symmonds on anything he writes about Crowley unless I can confirm it elsewhere - but the above quote sounds representative."
I agree. I read a copy of Symonds, "The Great Beast" a few years ago. It seems that every bit of gossip, rumour, and hearsay that he could get his hands on he printed as if it were incontrovertable fact. Plus it is clear that he doesn't like Crowley at all, so he's hardly unbiased.
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I have always thought that the magical battle was the one where the witches created a storm that sank the Armada during Elixabeth the Great's reign.
That's the theme that has come up in many a book I have read.
In L.VX.,
chrys333 -
Sorry Jim, the "crap like this..." comment of mine was meant to indicate that reading stuff like this for me is like taking a step back. I'm at the point now where it's not two steps back, but it is frustrating to consider that Crowley was rooting for Hitler, when here I am thinking he's a great, spiritual man. It doesn't sound like he was trying to trick Hitler the same way he was trying to trick Americans regarding Germany during WWI.
@Jim Eshelman said
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@Redd Fezz said
"Uh boy...John Symmonds has Crowley remarking:
"I never met... someone so demonic as Herr Hitler. Why do you think I spend so much time with him? And come when he bids me? I tell you only the universe can prevail against Hitler. But the universe for the present doesn’t seem to be interested; though Hitler is the enemy of the universe, that is to say of God; for the universe is only God’s instrument. It is as if God said, “Let mankind learn a lesson; they need to open their eyes a little wider. Hitler will do that for them. Just wait. They will see things that men have never seen or heard before—such horrors that there will be no word in the German or any other language to describe them.’ That is what the demonic is when it appears in a very ordinary person, a man of the people, someone the intellectuals are contemptuous of but not the masses. With an uncanny instinct, they know who he is.”"
I don't under stand the "Uh boy" part.
I don't trust Symmonds on anything he writes about Crowley unless I can confirm it elsewhere - but the above quote sounds representative."
Crowley talking about God? Hitler as the "enemy of
God?" When has he ever before been so "black and white" about God and God's enemies? And if he believes so, why is he so delighted to be
with Hitler and write notes on Liber AL in the margins of "Hitler
Speaks?" I mean, huh? Maybe you can explain it to me in ways that don't seem so bizarre.It's also strange because he gave the V sign to Britain as a
double-meaning for the horns of the Beast and V.V.V.V.V. Until the
end, he just loved the symbolism of Revelations, so him being The
Beast and Hitler being the "enemy of God" would align everything quite
appropriately for Hitler to be "The Antichrist," which has me
wondering... didn't Crowley ever read how the Bible ends? He liked to
play both sides of the wars so he'd always have a place in peace
regardless of which side won, but that's not how Revelations turns out
at all. All of his Beastliness would surely put him on the wrong side,
right next to "the enemy of God," as he said himself. -
Chris,
A lot of this comes from the writings of Gerald Gardiner, the rediscoverer or re-inventor if Wicca in mid-20th Crentury Britain. Evidence for organised covens turning back the Armada doesn't really exist, because witches in 16th Century England, patriotic or not, were burned.
Gardiner said the covens had convened in southern England in summer 1940 to raise the Cone of Power and turn back the Nazi forces, and the flagellations had been so fierce one or two people died. Gerald liked fladge.
At the same time, various Nazi groups were trying something similar in Germany - I don't know if anyone died from flogging there or not, but the Nazis offered plenty of other ways for people to get killed if they didn't.
There's also a heretical section of opinion that holds the magical oratory of Hitler and Churchill, plus their marshalling the hosts of their aircraft, were more significant in the outcome than SS seances or Wiccan flagellations.
In L.V.X.,
Edward
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Redd Fezz wrote:
I'm at the point now where it's not two steps back, but it is frustrating to consider that Crowley was rooting for Hitler, when here I am thinking he's a great, spiritual man.
If you do some historical digging, you will find very many people were pro-fascist or pro-Nazi. We look at it all know from the viewpoint of knowing about the Holocaust, whereas at the time a lot was denied or buried or excused. The 1930s were a frightening time, with the world economy in shanbles and communism profiting from this. People thought only an extreme stance would get them out of the mess, so they turned to extreme politics. W.B. Yeats became a fan of Mussolini, for example.
Also, Hitler talked a very good game. If you want to believe someone is a good guy, with your best interests at heart, then you do believe him. He signed a non-agression pact with Britain in late 1938, stating that he wanted no more territory in Europe. Nine or ten monthds later, he invaded Poland, and the War was on.
Crowley is also, clearly, making a philosophical point more than a political one. The great conquerors - the Romans, the early Muslims, Napoleon - may have been very nasty characters, but they do shake things up.
History isn't comfortable, it's simply what happened, according to what made sense at the time. Hindsight is a different animal.
And what is 'a great, spiritual man'? Isn't it someone who has looked right into the darkness?
Edward