LBRP
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@Redd Fezz said
"I guess what I thought of was that you use your left finger for silence whilest never dropping your blade for the main reason of NOT breaking the circle."
But what if you're left-handed and doing the ritual all with the left hand?
And I definitely don't think there's any need not to break the circle. It's necessarily broken (or, rather, interrupted) several times, e.g., when you draw each successive pentagram. As long as it is continuous by the time you're finished, all is well.
"For the crossing arms bit, it made me feel less Christian than the arms outstretched bit of the LBRP where you name the archangels... I thought of the crossing arms more like the center of the Unicursal Hexagram, which is more like an X and the Mark of the Beast, perfectly located over the Tiphereth center, no?"
Sure (except I don't see it as Unicursal Hexagram since that would require formulating a hexagram on the whole body, and that's definitely contrary to the formula of all standard forms of the ritual). More to the point, it's emulative of the sign traditionally called Osiris Slain. And it's the way that Aurum Solis teaches their LBR-like ritual. Nothing wrong with it per se, I was just making the point that I've seen several people with Catholic training mildly freak at "crossing themselves" in a way reminiscent of their Catholic upbringing.
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"They aren't on the wrong sides at all, though I like your word "seems.""Seems was a key word there. They seem to be suddenly on the wrong sides until, by Cornelius explanation, you realize that you went from backing into the tree to facing the tree, which recalls the "crossed arms" bit earlier."
Oh, that's what he meant by "standing on the back of A.Q." We just call that "backing into the Tree."
Yes, "backing into the Tree" is part of the standard discussion / explanation of this." -
@Redd Fezz said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"But what if you're left-handed and doing the ritual all with the left hand?"That would just be a simple switcheroo, wouldn't it? "
Not necessarily. Some Orders, descended from or influenced by the Golden Dawn tradition, are quite precise about whether a left or right finger is used for that sign, and the one chosen has specific doctrinal meaning within that system. Changing the finger isn't an issue. So, whether you're in a "use the right hand" group and are right-handed, or in a "use the left hand" group and are left-handed, there would be issue to address.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"And I definitely don't think there's any need not to break the circle. It's necessarily broken (or, rather, interrupted) several times, e.g., when you draw each successive pentagram. As long as it is continuous by the time you're finished, all is well."
Drawing the pentagrams doesn't seem to me to interrupt or break the circle; more like they are incorporated in the unbroken line, knotted and secured, no?"The ritual very specifically has four quarters drawn individually, and seemlessly connected.
"Bringing the 'drawing hand" to your lips for Silence and then pointing it at the floor and then drawing a pentagram perpendicular to the floor seem much less fluid somehow."
Whatever.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Sure (except I don't see it as Unicursal Hexagram since that would require formulating a hexagram on the whole body, and that's definitely contrary to the formula of all standard forms of the ritual). "Huh? It is?! I thought the macro/microcosm was clearly represented in teh 0=2 formula of the Unicursal Hexagram."
There are three primary standard variants of the hexagram's placement in the Pentagram Ritual. One version (the G.D. original, reflected in the A.'.A.'. 0=0 robe) has the pentagram "before" one and the hexagram "behind" one. The second variation has the hexagram "in the column," usually visualized as one above the head and one beneath the feet. The third variant has it "within me," or "in the center," where it is centered interiorly as the heart center. My statement is that none of these is consistent with overlaying a hexagram (of any kind) on the (interior or, expecially, exterior) human body overall.
"The way I see it, it works perfectly as the first part of the formula is sort of an inversion of the second as the magician initially faces one way (Geburah on the right = "backing into the Tree") and then faces the other (or both at the same time) finally facing the influence of the Sun;on the "intersection of the paths of Samekh and Pé, you are facing Tiphareth, thus on your right hand is Netzach, on your left hand Hod, and behind you Yesod."
You're welcome to make up anything you want
- but there is no inversion - one is facing the Sun from the first moment, since the floor-plan - standing at the intersection of Samekh and Peh - is Tiphereth before, Yesod behind, Netzach to the left, and Hod to the right. -
@Redd Fezz said
"Okay, so during the QC you are not facing the Sun. I guess this is not part of the LBRP, really."
The Tree of Life exists in two dimensions, actually. You are facing the Sun before you - standing at the intersection of S & P, facing Tiphereth. You are also backed into the Tree, so that Tiphereth is at your heart.
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So, this is what I've got:
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e33/rolocoaster/tree.jpg
The Unicursal Hex centers around the Abyss, which makes sense with regards to the 0=2 formula and the regular Hex centers around Tiphareth, which makes sense regarding the Soul and the Personality.
The dangling Yesod and Malkuth behind the Magician standing at Samekh and Peh just represents a shift in consciousness, yes?
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Although such definitions are constructs in support of understanding, it would be more accurate to say that Tiphareth is the circumference, the dot is Da'ath and Kether is their sum dissolution. What I find interesting is the nature of Da'ath. It really is Binah conferred as a weapon.
P.S. Crowley would have noted a degree to that stance. Short of knowing the intended symbolism, if one occupies Samekh and Peh, then they entered what I like to call the 'Wheel of Conscious Splendor', which is a psychic condition where the personality begins to understand the continuum of consciousness.
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@Redd Fezz said
"The Unicursal Hex centers around the Abyss, which makes sense with regards to the 0=2 formula and the regular Hex centers around Tiphareth, which makes sense regarding the Soul and the Personality."
Well, no, the Unicursal Hexagram fits on the Tree of Life in exactly the same places as the Star of David variety.
The rest looks mostly correct, though, except that your way of drawing it doesn't sustain the "backing into the Tree" alignment of the pillars. Mikhael, as Archangel of Hod, is on one's right, and you are still showing Hod on the left.
"The dangling Yesod and Malkuth behind the Magician standing at Samekh and Peh just represents a shift in consciousness, yes?"
I suppose. But actually, all you're saying is that hind brain (Yesod) is behind one and forebrain (Tiphereth) is before one, right?
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@Jim Eshelman said
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Well, no, the Unicursal Hexagram fits on the Tree of Life in exactly the same places as the Star of David variety."Huh, I read differently elsewhere. And it fits so well with all the ideas I had written about archetypes, Kether and Tiphareth.
@Jim Eshelman said
"The rest looks mostly correct, though, except that your way of drawing it doesn't sustain the "backing into the Tree" alignment of the pillars. Mikhael, as Archangel of Hod, is on one's right, and you are still showing Hod on the left."
I was imagining one backed into the standing tree and facing the tree on the ground. As he is backed in, Hod would be on his right. I guess you're saying the one on the ground should be flipped. I thought it was supposed to be the backside of Adam Kadmon, since you "can't see the face of God."
@Jim Eshelman said
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"The dangling Yesod and Malkuth behind the Magician standing at Samekh and Peh just represents a shift in consciousness, yes?"I suppose. But actually, all you're saying is that hind brain (Yesod) is behind one and forebrain (Tiphereth) is before one, right?"
Yeah, I guess so, but I never thought of Tiphereth as the forebrain before. I thought the forebrain was self-consciousness or Malkuth. -
@Virgil said
"Although such definitions are constructs in support of understanding, it would be more accurate to say that Tiphareth is the circumference, the dot is Da'ath and Kether is their sum dissolution. What I find interesting is the nature of Da'ath. It really is Binah conferred as a weapon.
P.S. Crowley would have noted a degree to that stance. Short of knowing the intended symbolism, if one occupies Samekh and Peh, then they entered what I like to call the 'Wheel of Conscious Splendor', which is a psychic condition where the personality begins to understand the continuum of consciousness."
I am sad to say, I don't know what any of this really means.
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@Redd Fezz said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The rest looks mostly correct, though, except that your way of drawing it doesn't sustain the "backing into the Tree" alignment of the pillars. Mikhael, as Archangel of Hod, is on one's right, and you are still showing Hod on the left."I was imagining one backed into the standing tree and facing the tree on the ground."
Yes. But their pillars align. And, in reality, they are the same Tree, just simultaneously existing extended in two different dimensions. And in either case the Pillars are aligned.
"As he is backed in, Hod would be on his right. I guess you're saying the one on the ground should be flipped. I thought it was supposed to be the backside of Adam Kadmon, since you "can't see the face of God.""
You mentioned you read that somewhere recently, but it's not part of any source instruction or original intention of the Pentagram Ritual. Everyone is entitled to their own interpretations, of course.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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"The dangling Yesod and Malkuth behind the Magician standing at Samekh and Peh just represents a shift in consciousness, yes?"I suppose. But actually, all you're saying is that hind brain (Yesod) is behind one and forebrain (Tiphereth) is before one, right?"
Yeah, I guess so, but I never thought of Tiphereth as the forebrain before."
Solar, self-conscious, Ruach-themed (cf. Resh, The Sun, as "face" and front of head) vs. lunar, subconscious, Nephesh-themed (cf. Qoph, The Moon, as back of head).
"I thought the forebrain was self-consciousness or Malkuth."
Malkuth isn't self-conscious when it comes to brain consciousness. It's simple neural sensation, all of the nerve endings from the body that eventuate to the spine and rise up together into the brain.
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Is the TOL really like a sphere that wraps all the way around so that any place you choose to bisect it would be the 2-dimensional "ground" you are talking about? I can draw another illustration if that doesn't make sense, but I think it is what maybe you're really saying because when I consider why you'd project a TOL on the ground, it seems almost arbitrary. But, if you're encapsulated in it, then it makes a sort of sense to look at it in layers like that (to me, anyway).
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@Virgil said
""Her amino-acids - Lucy's amino-acids are not in the right sequence!"
"So, how do we get Lucy's amino-acids in the right sequence?"
"We get her a sequencer..."- Creator with Peter O'Toole"
Sounds like Lucy's in the Sky with Diamonds to me.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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Well, no, the Unicursal Hexagram fits on the Tree of Life in exactly the same places as the Star of David variety."Oddly enough, it was your comment that the Unicursal Hexagram doesn't fit "over the whole body" that led me to believe I had it wrong. Prior to this, I had it centered over Tiphareth just like the regular hexagram. Perhaps your comment was due to a misunderstanding of my fumbling ideas... just as I have been repeatedly misunderstanding your comments.
I hope!So, I'll just try again, then. Facing Tiphareth, you are facing Hadit. The Unicursal Hexagram represents the push-pull of the Universe, the 0=2 formula. Since Hadit is the internal burning solar flame, it is located at Tiphareth, the Soul. Since Nuit are the extremes of interaction, the points of the Unicursal Hexagram point to the archetypes of knowledge in Da'ath and all the incorporating spheres of this knowledge to the personality of man, Yesod, the foundation of the ultimate grounded Malkuthian reality. Malkuth dangles as the result and the Supernal Triad remain beyond the "reach" of Hadit. Revised diagram:
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e33/rolocoaster/tree2.jpg -
RF, 93,
I have a suspicion JAE may not be close to a computer for a day or two.
You wrote:
"So, I'll just try again, then. Facing Tiphareth, you are facing Hadit. The Unicursal Hexagram represents the push-pull of the Universe, the 0=2 formula. Since Hadit is the internal burning solar flame, it is located at Tiphareth, the Soul. Since Nuit are the extremes of interaction, the points of the Unicursal Hexagram point to the archetypes of knowledge in Da'ath and all the incorporating spheres of this knowledge to the personality of man, Yesod, the foundation of the ultimate grounded Malkuthian reality. Malkuth dangles as the result and the Supernal Triad remain beyond the "reach" of Hadit"
I agree with Virgil that the purest or simplest place to 'put' Hadit is Kether. But Hadit is 'the ubiquitous point-of-view". Somebody operating from Yesod (in a ritual, say, or writing an on-line post or maybe involved in sexual activity) is experiencing things through Hadit as much as somebody having a vision of Beauty in Tiphereth is experiencing Hadit there. The Supernal triad is "beyond the reach" of Hadit only in the sense that the practitioner has not yet opened him/herself to awareness ("Hadit-ifying" ?) of the Supernals. As for defining Nuit as 'extremes of interaction', that strikes me as a bit like defining the flatness of part of a sphere. Nuit is all the Hadits in the Cosmos and their interconections, the extreme and the intimate ... though even that statement is just another definition of a form of flatness.
I think you may be confusing the Ruach (self-conscious awareness) with Hadit..? Tiphereth is the centre or home base of the Ruach, even though the Ruach conventionally encompasses all the sephiroth from Yesod through Chesed.
Tiphereth is the point of contact for the greater consciousness lying above/beyond, as well as for a deeper or broader comprehension of those below it. The East is sunrise, the Coming-up-into-Consciousness direction. Only the Ruach centred in Tiphereth can comprehend the Neshamah, the Supernal soul. Yesod, which in the LBRP represents sunset and a merging into twilight, is a contact point between the Nephesh, the animal soul or instinctual consciousness, and the Ruach, which is 'conscious consciousness'.
So facing East sets up an internal hierarchy within us: the illuminated Ruach in Tiphereth shines through the magician into the more dreamy or compulsive or (my preferred word) tidal consciousness in Yesod. This literally enlightens the Nephesh (according to its natural limits), and aligns it properly with, and under, the Ruach.
A personal prejudice here: bringing any hexagram concept into a pentagram ritual tends to muddle the cleanness and simplicity of something like the LBRP. The pentagram and the hexagram handle different things in different ways.
93 93/93,
Edward
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My understanding is that from the darkness (Nuit) comes the Black Flame (Hadit / Soul) which travels through Nuit. That is, Hadit is ever becoming and Nuit is ever expanding-- Nuit is all space (which includes "matter"), Hadit is the experience itself of the Soul intersecting/experiencing space. So Malkuth, the body, is Nuit. Nuit is all-encompassing space through which Hadit, the flame, travels, so Nuit would also be Kether.
By this understanding, Hadit would come from Kether and return to Kether while always being within Kether, since Malkuth is in Kether and Kether is in Malkuth after a different manner. So, Hadit is also in Kether.
Whether we exist in a Yesod or Malkuth state of mind seems irrelevant to the nature of Hadit, since the Soul (Hadit) is the real nature of a man. The True self is Hadit. So, if you were functioning in Yesod or Malkuth, it is still Hadit who is functioning in these realms, clothed in the ephemeral personality.
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RF, 93,
I like the imagery here. But I still think that if Hadit is perpetually striving to attain to Nuit, to achieve dissolution in Her, then that will happen as Kether into Ain Soph; and also as a Tipherethic experience/viewpoint dissolving into the Neshamah in Binah; as Yesodic consciousness entering into Tiphereth ... and so on.
I personally can't see restricting Hadit to Kether, unless we were to say that Hadit is the Kether of Malkuth, the Kether of Hod, the Kether of Geburah, etc. etc. That strikes me as unnecessarily nit-picky. Hadit's union with Nuit is ecstatic, and not something I'd want to analyze down to the Nth degree of Qablistic exactitude. Analyzed ecstasy, to me, is like congealed spaghetti. It's still food, but .... eewww.
Kether is in Malkuth and Malkuth in Kether - but, as you note, after a different manner. While not entirely forgetting that they are two sides of one cosmic coin, this side of attaining full Neshamic consciousness, I think it's more helpful to keep them separate in our work.
93 93/93,
Edward
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Hi Ed, thanks for chiming in here.
I wasn't restricting Hadit to Kether. I was saying, "Yeah, it seems like Hadit would be there, too, I think" as a response to Virgil's and your previous posts. Hadit is what eventually crosses the Abyss, right? So I would imagine it goes higher than Tiphareth at some point, anyway.
BTW, as to your previous comment about muddying up the LBRP with all this hexagram stuff, believe it or not, I'm trying to understand the LBRP. I really don't get it, so I'm trying to get the big picture to see what the hell is going on. You start out facing East, Tiphareth, and draw a pentagram. What does that represent, spirit over the 4 elements? Then you turn toward the South, which is where, Netzach? Then West is Yesod and North is Hod? So then Tiphareth represents Air, Netzach = fire, Yesod = water (okay, that makes sense), and Hod = earth? Seems like Malkuth would be earth, if you ask me.
Since you're at Samekh and Peh, you're not actually IN the center of the "solar system," but you wind up facing that center, Hadit, to receive its influence. Is that right? -
I'm not sure I'd say that it's Hadit that crosses the Abyss. The Abyssal experience would be an abandonment of Hadit into the Ocean of Binah, I'd have thought: individuality is saturated and dissolved into a vast Understanding. Ultimately, yes, it would be Hadit doing it (I think...) but recall Crowley's descriptions in the Confessions. He was not conscious, in the conventional sense, of a dividual self during that intense work with G.C. Jones.
I found getting to understand the LBRP came from practice, not from knowing all the 'stuff'. I've always found the Peh/Samekh info bothersome and distracting, to be honest.
I look at the LBRP as a way of parsing out or analyzing the personal self. I don't get too hung up on the elemental attributions of the sephiroth, I just allow the Names and Archangels to represent the elements of their Quarters, as they have done for centuries, well before the HOGD started up. We conventionally say Yesod is Air because it's on the Middle Pillar, but it's also watery. Netzach also does a kind of double duty, both as fire expressed on the personality level, and as an earth-related sephirah. It's green, after all, and being at the bottom of the Pillar of Fire, it's receptive to the sephiroth above it. It feeds 'information' to Malkuth through Qoph (subconsciousness - remember Qoph is the back of the head, and the cerebellum).
In my own work, I simply see Raphael as Air, and as therefore representing information or realization. Gabriel is Water, and is thus deep understanding. Mikhael is Fire and thus divine energy. Auriel presides over Earth, and is thus about formation and finalization. Gabe and Auri are receptive to their opposites, Raph and Mike. The Names set up the primary orientation of the temple, and the Archangels step down the energy or summarise it.
I re-center and balance myself through this, and that allows me to release whatever I'm hanging onto. There are levels to that process, and I wouldn't like to try and summarize it all in a few paragraphs. It would vary a bit from practitioner to practitioner, I'd say, but it should be an energized exercise, and not mumbled.
I do find it helpful to allow consciousness, or the centre of mental activity, to shift a little (or a lot) to the Archangels. The realer they are, the more I can release whatever's hanging me up.
The center, as I understand it, is not what's in front of me, but what's at the center of me. Hadit (in this exercise) is the absolute core of my own being, at the heart. To the extent I can become Hadit, or allow it to Be, and thus give up any effort at 'being in control', the ritual is effective. To the extent I try to force it to work ... it doesn't.
The pentagram is Spirit ruling over the four elements, yes. I also see it as an expression of the human form at its ideal best. Which is, I feel, what happens when Spirit is in charge.
In L.V.X.,
Edward