Thelema Demystified perhaps?
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Ha, I read Conversations with God! I think I actually bothered to read the first three of the series (back when I had money to burn!). I think what the author wrote is what people want to hear and what people want to hear has been the promise of many religions over time. That's part of NDW's whole shtick, of course, that God kept giving the same instructions and people kept messing it up! Yes, I think there is plenty of Thelema in those books; as much as Taoism or Buddhism. In a nutshell: do what you want, but don't hurt anyone. The thing about Thelema that no other religion really has is the simple fact that the main focus is Knowledge & Conversation with your Holy Guardian Angel and finding your True Will. I think NDW wrote about following your conscience and probably meditating/listening to your inner voice. I don't know if that is so different (it seems to me True Will is a revelatory experience of Purified Will resulting from a definitive contact with an inner beacon of light, aka the HGA), but it seems it must be unless Thelemites and Abramelin really like/d to exaggerate.
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93,
Thanks for the reply Redd. My sentiments are similar to the points you made in your post. The comment you made about Thelema's main focus being K&C is something that tends to escape me at times, or, more accurately, I tend to lose focus of that main premise. Hmmm once again thank you for your reply, it most definately led to an "Aha!" moment'
93/93
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I totally disagree that Thelema's main focus is the K&C. No place in the entirety of The Book of the Law is there a single direct reference to that.
I do agree, on the other hand, that the main purpose of the Great Work in general is, as it has always been, the attainment of the Knowledge & Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel. This isn't new to the present Aeon nor specifically Thelemic.
I would also agree that - years before embracing Liber Legis - Crowley understood his own work as teaching the Next Step specifically defined as attaining to the K&C of the HGA, and that the A.'.A.'. was crafted with that goal in mind.
But that's all quite a ways from saying that it's the main focus of Thelema.
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What I meant by that was that the point for the initiate, immediately, is to discover his True Will. In order to do so, he must have K&Cw/HGA and all the steps that lead up to this accomplishment. After which, that part is over, so, no, that isn't the main focus of Thelema after this is accomplished. I would think the main focus of Thelema is to do your Will and to advance yourself, but both of these concepts hinge on K&Cw/HGA. However, since I don't know/haven't heard of many people who have had <i>either</i> experience after many years, I worded it in the way that apparently seemed most realistic/accurate to me at the time. How many here can say they've accomplished either goal? How many years have you been working toward that goal?
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@Redd Fezz said
"What I meant by that was that the point for the initiate, immediately, is to discover his True Will."
Yes. But that shouldn't be confused (as it often is!) with the K&C.
"In order to do so, he must have K&Cw/HGA and all the steps that lead up to this accomplishment."
Wrong!
Yes, a few do go about it that way - not having conscious knowledge of the True Will until after the K&C.
But generally is is a much earlier result. I've seen it most often clarify in A.'.A.'. 2=9, maybe earlier. For most, the conscious knowledge and doing of the True Will is one of the most significant "practices" that actually draws one deeper toward the K&C, in my experience.
As one (of many) comparisons, in the same fashion that the "magick power" of the A.'.A.'. 5=6 Grade is the Knowledge & Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel, a "magick power" of the 5° of Temple of Thelema - a "lower octave" of that grade - is conscious knowledge of one's True Will.
"However, since I don't know/haven't heard of many people who have had <i>either</i> experience after many years, I worded it in the way that apparently seemed most realistic/accurate to me at the time. How many here can say they've accomplished either goal? How many years have you been working toward that goal?"
I had the synthetic breakthrough of full conscious awareness of my True Will 6 years after I entered the A.'.A.'. as a Probationer, and attained the K&C of the HGA 8 years after that.
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Very interesting! Good to know.
What would you say is the main focus of Thelema, if there is one? I was just reading about the Buddhist "emptiness" and was thinking to myself: "harmonious balance of bliss = 'nothing,' it seems to me." Is Thelemic enlightenment different from Buddhist/Taoist ideas? The whole "doing nothing, going nowhere" concept seems escapist, unless that is only half of the idea; if the other half is action-related (ie. "When we realize we are doing nothing, going nowhere, we can do anything or go anywhere we want").
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Hi Redd Fezz!
Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law
@Redd Fezz said
"... I was just reading about the Buddhist "emptiness" and was thinking to myself: "harmonious balance of bliss = 'nothing,' it seems to me." ... The whole "doing nothing, going nowhere" concept seems escapist, unless that is only half of the idea;"
Since the concept of Buddhist enlightenment can only be experienced and cannot adequately be described in words the use of existing English words to describe Buddhist technical ideas can be very misleading. (How does one verbally describe something beyond the concepts of subject / object when our whole language has a basis of subject / object?) Buddhist dialectics take on two forms. The earliest form was to describe the experience of enlightenment in negative terms. The use of English terms such as "nothingness" is an example of the words selected when the experience of enlightenment is described in negative terms. As Buddhism started to spread into China around 500 C.E. the Chinese Buddhist philosophers started using positive terms to describe enlightenment. Descriptions of various states of consciousness as the different heavens, etc... is a good example of this change.
Perhaps a better description of the condition of Buddhist enlightenment is one of no preconceptions, open to all possibilities, no thoughts of things being good or bad. In other words, total potentiality, no preconception or conceptualization of this or that, subject / object, me / you, living in the moment. You can sort of see if you always lived in this manner you would never be disappointed, because you don't have any preconceived concepts about something being good or bad for you. As a matter of fact the concept of 'you' goes away if truly living in the moment. There is also a transcendent experience that is to go hand-in-hand with the experience of enlightenment that carries with it attainment of becoming omniscient, omnipotent, etc... If you are interested in studying the Buddhist philosophical system that attempts to describe the experience of enlightenment look for books written about Madhyamika philosophy. The Buddhist "Saint" who is credited for developing this form of argument is Nagarjuna. Any of his works with commentaries will get you in real deep real fast. Reading his works will set your mind on end.
Love is the law, love under will.
Nick
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Thanks, Nick! (BTW, I bought "The Tara Box"-- pretty cool.)
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Redd Fezz, 93,
"What would you say is the main focus of Thelema, if there is one?"
My guess would be "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."
93 93/93,
Edward
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Ah, so I got that part right. I'd be interested in seeing any more in-depth thoughts Jim (or you or anyone) might have on it, though. If this road travels back to the previous threads about "True Will," then I suppose it's not necessary.
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@Redd Fezz said
"Very interesting! Good to know.
What would you say is the main focus of Thelema, if there is one? I was just reading about the Buddhist "emptiness" and was thinking to myself: "harmonious balance of bliss = 'nothing,' it seems to me." Is Thelemic enlightenment different from Buddhist/Taoist ideas? The whole "doing nothing, going nowhere" concept seems escapist, unless that is only half of the idea; if the other half is action-related (ie. "When we realize we are doing nothing, going nowhere, we can do anything or go anywhere we want")."
"Except Adonai build the house, they labor in vain that build it: except Adonai keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain."
-- Psalms 127:1
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Great post, Zeph! And, as far as the Bible goes, there are Job and Solomon, who enjoyed great abundance.
I wonder why Buddhist monks are so ascetic if they don't have to be. I know they try to find just as much joy in a grain of sand as anything else, but variety is the spice of life, is it not?
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@Redd Fezz said
"but variety is the spice of life, is it not?"
Ignoring the ascetic point on which you directly queried - the above quote fragment is probably the thing that misleads more generally stable and serious occultists than anything else.
That is, I've seen far, far greater success of occult work (in spiritual work of all kinds) from prolonger, persistent, regularity on a very few things than with trying all sorts of things willy-nilly. And yet so many students behave as if "finding 11 more cool things to know and do and think about" is the key. "This didn't work right away, so I'll try this other thing instead."
It is entirely natural and reasonable, though, that most students would take this approach because, of the three primary stages of the Lesser Mysteries, exploring the widest diversity of things is a fundamental characteristic of the first stage - the Seeker - and that's where the vast maority of occult students are. Very few have gotten to the Server stage yet.
Just an aside, I suppose... but one that got triggered by your remark. FWIW.
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That's a thing I take into consideration quite a bit, Jim. That's why I don't tend to commit to something until I've researched it a bit. It took me years before I signed up to a group or started doing the LBRP, MPR regularly.
What I'm finding in the Seeker stage is that all the pieces fit together more and more. Having been prompted by BOTA to build an altar made me reinvestigate what Deity means to me, which meant revisiting all the important ideas that have stuck in my mind. Returning to Buddhism, particularly one amazing book I never bothered to read just before I basically gave up on it, I see there is much (if not most) that coincides with what I've learned from everywhere else. I opened right up to what interested me most: "practicing renunciation" and see that the focus is about ridding yourself of materialism and building faith. Some brilliant stuff in there which ties right into the Tarot Keys and the Hindu stuff the Golden Dawn used.
I understand your point, but this stuff really is a melting pot, as illustrated pretty clearly in the G.'.D.'. and A.'.A.'. texts (Hebrew + Hindu + Egyptian + Taoism/Buddhism + Greek...). For myself, it is mostly about clarifying certain ideas (the verification process, which is exactly where I am in BOTA), not just learning to do "11 more cool new things" if the last stuff didn't work.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
I concur Jim, because I myself am guilty of "finding 11 more cool things know and do and think about" at my present stage in development. But how does one get passed that stage with so many paths to choose from? Me myself, I have a thing for ancient Egypt, so I am drawn towards Kemetic customs and mysticism. However, I am also drawn towards Thelema, and it's customs. And though I am confused as all shit (excuse my language), I am finding myself becoming more and more intrigued and engulfed in Thelema. So where does one draw the line?
Love is the Law. Love under Will.
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@Ra-Imhotep said
"Me myself, I have a thing for ancient Egypt, so I am drawn towards Kemetic customs and mysticism. However, I am also drawn towards Thelema, and it's customs. And though I am confused as all {fecal expression} (excuse my language), I am finding myself becoming more and more intrigued and engulfed in Thelema. So where does one draw the line?"
It gets even more confusing if you take up Liber Resh, as I did, based on a certain Thelemite's advice, to later find a post of his mentioning that he's not so thrilled with the pseudo-Egyptian terms Crowley employed, like "Hadit," for instance, which make up a crucial element of Liber Resh and basic understanding of Crowley's "cosmology."
I feel like the best way to understand Crowley is to familiarize yourself with the subjects he was familiar with and then read his opinions on these subjects afterwards.EDIT: Haha, this post makes #300 for me which has elevated my status to "Ultimate Spark of The Intimate Fire"... no way in heck am I on the same level as Jim!
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@Ra-Imhotep said
"I concur Jim, because I myself am guilty of "finding 11 more cool things know and do and think about" at my present stage in development. But how does one get passed that stage with so many paths to choose from?"
It's a matter of ripeness - of readiness - as distinctive and objective a developmental stage as, say, puberty. However (on the flip side), a common mistake is someone expecting fireworks and trumpets to signal readiness, and that's not necessarily the way it works for most people.
When you feel you are ready for sytemmatic training to your goal, pick something, commit, and stick with its program (whatever it is). You're the only one who can decide when you're ready for such a move.
Also, every credible system of which I know has a sort of "buffer zone," or preliminary stage (something numbered Zero, for example <g>) during which you are "deciding yourself in or out."
"So where does one draw the line?"
You gotta decide that, man.
Remember, though: The first word of our law is Do.
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93 Redd,
I do agree with you about the psuedo-Egyptian names...I've never heard of Hadit until I began to study Thelema. You know, I have a book by a man named Re-Un Nefer Amen, who created a system of mediation and attainment using the tree of life. He attributed various Egyptian deities to the sephiroth, which match up perfectly with the G.'.D.'. attributions. Ptah, the creator God, was attributed to Kether. Now I have a question. Where does Hadit fall on the tree of life? Cold there be a connection between Ptah and Hadit? In my mind, I always attributed Hadit to Kether and Nuit to the three negative veils.
93
93/93 -
@Ra-Imhotep said
"93 Redd,
I do agree with you about the psuedo-Egyptian names...I've never heard of Hadit until I began to study Thelema. You know, I have a book by a man named Re-Un Nefer Amen, who created a system of mediation and attainment using the tree of life. He attributed various Egyptian deities to the sephiroth, which match up perfectly with the G.'.D.'. attributions. Ptah, the creator God, was attributed to Kether. Now I have a question. Where does Hadit fall on the tree of life? Cold there be a connection between Ptah and Hadit? In my mind, I always attributed Hadit to Kether and Nuit to the three negative veils.
93
93/93"I have that book. I accidentally stirred up a bit of controversy on the PFC list by discussing the criss-crossing of the top pillars. You're talking about Tree of Life Meditation System, right? I am beginning to think that all of these ideas are "ways in" but they are not all exactly the same or completely equal (I don't mean to suggest that), but there is probably something that clicks for anyone in his particular stage of development that can really boost his progress if he really puts his heart into it. The T.O.L.M.S. doesn't seem so different from certain Tibetan meditation practices. And neither seems at odds with Qabalah. I really liked Ra Un Nefer Amen's placement of the deities on the Tree of Life, but that's not where Crowley put them. And other people put them different places as well. But, if you analyze Ra Un Nefer Amen's placement, it seems kind of hard to argue against his proposition that the Earth God belongs on Malkuth, etc. Ra Un Nefer Amen's system seems more of a straight transfer to the Tree, which makes perfect sense to me, unlike other versions I've seen.
To answer your question about Hadit, I really have no idea. I discussed it before on these forums, but I think the suggestions I got were too vague for me to grasp. Seems like Nuit would be the ultimate outer limits (negative veils, sure) and Hadit would come through Kether, through Malkuth and centered in Tiphareth, as well as everywhere else. Nuit and Hadit are everywhere in different ways, I guess; Nuit being the container and Hadit being the point of interaction within that container. (I think).
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@Ra-Imhotep said
"I do agree with you about the psuedo-Egyptian names...I've never heard of Hadit until I began to study Thelema."
Thelemic deity names shouldn't be confused at all with Egyptian deities of similar names, no matter how much superficial similarity. I'm not sure there was ever intended to be any identity or actual "Egyptian-ness" about them.
"Now I have a question. Where does Hadit fall on the tree of life? Cold there be a connection between Ptah and Hadit? In my mind, I always attributed Hadit to Kether and Nuit to the three negative veils."
See this thread: heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?t=435 - my 23 June post.