Victor Neuberg's & Crowley's initiations
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Thanks for the thoughtful responses, Jim.
Just want to respond to a couple questions you raised and then I guess there's probably not much more to say based on your responses.
• "Shattered" was the author's description. I can't remember at this point if he was quoting people "who knew them" or if that was his own word choice. So, where I was "getting 'shattered' from" is the article I linked.
• Psychedelics: Bennett instructed Crowley in magical use of drugs prior to his first pupil enlistee, therefore I take it certain mind-altering experiences had occured in AC's mind, if he was not using psychedelics as part of Neuberg's initiation. The guy I was talking about, Martin, wasn't on any other substances (we did a lot of mushrooms, and mescaline/microdots about 3 times, but LSD was always available). True, AC wasn't using LSD, but natural psychedelics can be just as mind-warping. It all depends on what is in your head to begin with. Crowley had some issues, clearly, whether from past lives or whatever; simlar seeming issues that were immediately brought out in my friend Martin, who was prior to psychedelic use just a rebellious kid like Crowley with complete disdain for authority, very much a juvenile delinquent who simply enjoyed being bad. My first 180 trips or so were pure heaven, the last 20 or so were "the suck." Toward the end of my drug years, increasingly more of my friends had spent a lot of time with Martin and were now nervous wrecks, which kind of made tripping a bad experience in general for me, since everyone around me was having bad trips and I was always having to nursemaid them.
• "Whatever." I've gotten this response from you 3 times now. That's disappointing. I feel almost certain that if I scrapped through your various communications with people, there would be some mention of Crowley's definition of magick. The point I was making regarding his very definition of magick vs. his characterization of "black magick" was certainly logical enough for legitimate consideration... and the response of "whatever" doesn't really accomplish anything.
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@Redd Fezz said
""Whatever." I've gotten this response from you 3 times now. That's disappointing. I feel almost certain that if I scrapped through your various communications with people, there would be some mention of Crowley's definition of magick. The point I was making regarding his very definition of magick vs. his characterization of "black magick" was certainly logical enough for legitimate consideration... and the response of "whatever" doesn't really accomplish anything."
Sorry if I offended. After 30 years I'm simply weary of the umpteenth thousandth question of "Which of several kinds of nasty person was he, since everyone knows he was."
I've known several people who knew Crowley personally. None of them (not one!) felt he was anything of the kind.
OK, you've convinced me of a new policy for myself: I'll simply stop responding to anything at all (from anyone) concerning Crowley's character. If you're interested in the work itself, that's of course a different matter - and really the only thing that matters.
In fact, I'll go back now and delete anything from my posts above pertaining to the personality issue.
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I'm not offended. "Whatever" is just a non-response, really, so better to simply not respond. Writing "whatever" gives the impression that a topic was addressed when it wasn't. I understand that you may feel you've been over this a million times, but not with me! And I have no idea about the particulars of your previous discussions.
From his own diaries and his own self-promoting books, it's clear that he was "cranky" as his "nephews" like to call "Uncle Al." He also claims to have performed magickal attack. These are the issues I'm addressing.
Neither of these points has anything to do with what someone told you who knew the guy personally. That is irrelevant, in my opinion. Most of my friends would tell you I'm a great guy, but ask my enemies what they think.
Also, if "compassion is the vice of kings," where does "honking your own horn" and "crankiness" fit in the picture?
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@Redd Fezz said
"With regards to the later stuff, I was thinking about drawing a circle in the desert sand, Crowley getting in the triangle, and Choronzon getting out, blowing away the sand-circle and attacking Neuberg!"
The magical technique was sound, and very well executed.
"If the article is at all accurate, it sounds like they both put some serious stress on themselves during this whole process."
Yes, I'm sure they did. That is often a part of advanced magick work.
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@Redd Fezz said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The magical technique was sound, and very well executed."Is it common safety precautions for one guy to go stand in the triangle while a relative novice operates inside a circle made of sand blowing in the breeze?"
It isn't common for a magician to offer himself as the sacrifice within the triangle, no. That was what was unusual.
But the precautions for the circumstance were sound. In particular, Victor was well-equipped with precisely what to do.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Redd Fezz said
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@Jim Eshelman said
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The magical technique was sound, and very well executed."Is it common safety precautions for one guy to go stand in the triangle while a relative novice operates inside a circle made of sand blowing in the breeze?"
It isn't common for a magician to offer himself as the sacrifice within the triangle, no. That was what was unusual.
But the precautions for the circumstance were sound. In particular, Victor was well-equipped with precisely what to do."
I guess he just messed up, then. Or just maybe he was in over his head? Maybe they both were? What is the logic with sacrificing oneself in the triangle, anyway? Isn't that, like, sacrificing yourself to the demon Choronzon, rather than the most high Lord of the Universe?
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@Redd Fezz said
"I guess he just messed up, then. Or just maybe he was in over his head? Maybe they both were?"
Mesed up? You've lost me. This is one of the most successful magical workings in the documented history of magick.
Certainly Victor wasn't prepared to handle Babe of the Abyss (7=4 Major) issues himself - but, as a 2=9, he was more than able to handle the specific duties which he had been assigned, and he did those.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Redd Fezz said
"I guess he just messed up, then. Or just maybe he was in over his head? Maybe they both were?"Mesed up? You've lost me. This is one of the most successful magical workings in the documented history of magick. "
Neuberg talked to Choronzon which Crowley told him not to. While he was talking to Choronzon, the demon sneakily erased the circle and attacked him. That's a mess up, right? What was so successful about it? What did they actually accomplish? All the article says is Crowley scratched "Babalon" in the sand after having "defeated" Choronzon and "crossing the Abyss."
EDIT: This Wikipedia entry seems to tell me what I need to know. I just need to decide whether or not to believe it.
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Oops.
I am guilty of what I hate most about celebrity gossip. People hold celebrities up to things they said years ago and, at the same time, use their past as a way to discredit their present. Jim, thanks for pointing out the timeline here. It took a while for it to sink in, but yes, while he was performing "magickal attacks," he wasn't at his highest grade and he did mellow with age, although he always seemed a bit cranky, I think. However, I'll take compassion and humility over ego and crankiness any day. If the former is a vice of kings, the latter is a vice of just any old bitch, really. And I still believe that if every act is magickal, then manipulative or domineering acts are black magick.
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@Redd Fezz said
"Neuberg talked to Choronzon which Crowley told him not to."
That was a slip but not fatal. It caused him more troubles - which he had to deal with.
"While he was talking to Choronzon, the demon sneakily erased the circle and attacked him. That's a mess up, right?"
It was a war - that's why he was armed. There were going to be tricks and deceits. That's why his vigilance was required.
"What was so successful about it? What did they actually accomplish?"
Crowley crossed the Abyss and was received into the 8=3 Grade. He also directly experienced the 10th Aethyr. That was the whole purpose.
"All the article says is Crowley scratched "Babalon" in the sand after having "defeated" Choronzon and "crossing the Abyss.""
Precisely. Babalon banishes Choronzon.
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Excerpts from my commentary on "The Cry of the 10th Aethyr" - the events of that day. (For the record, Copyright College of Thelema, All Rights Reserved.)
Victor's oath of the operation:
"I, Omnia Vincam, a Probationer of A.'.A.'. [he was at least 1=10 at the time, though], hereby solemnly promise upon my magical honour, and swear by Adonai the angel that guardeth me, that I will defend this magic circle of Art with thoughts and words and deeds. I promise to threaten with the Dagger and command back into the triangle the spirit incontinent, if he should strive to escape from it; and to strike with a Dagger at anything that may seek to enter this Circle, were it in appearance the body of the Seer himself. And I will be exceeding wary, armed against force and cunning; and I will preserve with my life the inviolability of this Circle, Amen.
And I summon mine Holy Guardian Angel to witness this mine oath, the which if I break, may I perish, forsaken of Him. Amen and Amen."
For the most part, we do not have a record of Aleister Crowley’s encounter with Choronzon, and the final stage of his crossing of the Abyss. That isn’t what this text records. Almost entirely, it is, the text of Victor Neuburg’s experience of these two hours. Other than the first two lines, and the actions observed in the last, there is virtually nothing of Crowley in it at all. Nor is there a real articulated “vision and voice” of the Æthyr.
Still, this record is our best account of one of the most extraordinary magical events in modern times.
What actually happened? A magical circle was cast, and a triangle of evocation placed outside of it, all very similar to what is recommended in The Goetia. Neuburg was safely placed within the circle to keep watch, and to serve as scribe. Three pigeons were slain, and their blood spilled in the corners of the triangle to serve as an etheric basic for the attraction and manifestation of the demon Choronzon.
But there is one detail the text does not give – which, in fact, Crowley went out of his way to obscure. It is virtually certain that Crowley placed himself in the triangle to serve as the living basis for the manifestation of Choronzon. That is, he invoked Choronzon into himself. His battle with Choronzon was within. His weapons in this battle were concentration and silence. When the text says that he was to “retire to a secret place, where is neither sight nor hearing,” this did not refer to a physical place, but to the depths of meditation.
It makes no difference that the man sitting in the triangle didn’t appear very concentrated or silent. The essence of Crowley was withdrawn, in meditation impenetrable. What was left behind was the shell of his personality, devoid of a guiding central principle. It was in this that Choronzon manifested fully.
What is truly extraordinary, though, is that Neuburg, even late in life, insisted to his intimates that this is not what happened – that he literally fought a demon in the desert that day. There is no reason to believe he thought anything different. The explanation is that Neuburg was a powerful psychic sensitive. He naturally responded to and absorbed nearly any strong psychic impressions. It would seem that the psychic intensity of Crowley’s invocation and inner process was so intense as to impress itself on Neuburg’s mind with the reality of physical sensory conviction.
It was this tremendous psychic sensitivity that required the exceptional precautions Crowley employed. At first, these seem little more than the medieval classic evocation formulæ. They were, in fact much more. An examination of the preliminary details reveals that Neuburg was especially placed in a magical environment attuned to the element Air, and fortified with the tools of Air and the intellect. If “crossing the Abyss” involves the abdication of the particular formulations that constitute the intellect (as it does), then Neuburg’s instructions certainly would ensure that he wouldn’t make such a crossing, wouldn’t get sucked into the vortex of consciousness created by the vacuum of Crowley’s dissolution. Crowley’s preliminaries fixed Neuburg in the Domain of Air, and kept his intellect busy.
[...]
[One] clue that this record is not of Crowley’s actual experience – only of Neuburg’s experience – is in the symbolism of the name of the Æthyr. ZAX = Leo, Taurus, Earth = Teth, Vav, Tav = 9 + 6 + 400 = 415. To make the point more poignantly, lay out the three Tarot trumps corresponding, Atus XI (Lust), V (The Hierophant), and XXI (The Universe). Meditate on these for several minutes. Feel the energies which originate in the bright, passionate solar ferocity, the white heat of Bhakti taken to its highest peak of fervor of Teth – then the concentration of this solar-phallic force in the essence of his Inmost Teacher, the Holy Guardian Angel – then the dissolution of that into the infinite dark of space, the void of Saturn. This does not at all match what appears in the recorded text of the vision – but we’d bet that it runs pretty close to Crowley’s actual journey!
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The circle is surrounded with the Divine Name ruling Air, and that of Yesod – the two names traditionally employed to open the Temple of Yesod and of Air. ARARITA is a notariqon expressing the Unity of God...
Not only was Neuburg’s magick circle charged with Air names, but he was armed not only with the quill of the scribe, but with the magick dagger, the chief Air implement. Observe, also the terms of his oath: He is to employ the power of the dagger – the power of intellect – fortified by wariness and cunning. In other words – and adding this to his primary duty of transcribing each thing he heard – his mind is being kept terribly busy while all of this is going on!
"There is no being in the outermost Abyss, but constant forms come forth from the nothingness of it." This preliminary line appears to describe Crowley’s perception of the Abyss as he started to descend, within himself, into that “secret place, where is neither sight nor hearing.”
"(Here the Spirit simulated the voice of Frater P., which also appeared to come from his station and not from the triangle.)" Choronzon was Frater P. – Crowley – and came from within the triangle where he was seated. The simulation was rather easy, we imagine!
"They have called me the God of laughter, &c. ... Is not thy mercy infinite?" Crowley-as-Choronzon continues speaking. Note that most of what he says during this two-hour period cannot be trusted. He is the God of Lies. As tempting as it may be to derive doctrine from much of this text, it should all be viewed with the greatest suspicion – or, at least, prudence! But it is a great example of how a spirit, during even a fairly benign evocation, can toy with one’s mind and emotions while to wrest the upper hand away from the magician.
"Sprinkle water upon my head. I can hardly go on. (This last was spoken from the triangle in the natural voice of the Frater, which Choronzon again simulated. But he did not succeed in taking the Frater’s form – which was absurd!..." Why would it be absurd that Choronzon, in the triangle, not have Crowley’s form, unless . . . ?
"(Then the demon tried to make the Scribe laugh at Magick, and to think that it was all rubbish, that he might deny the names of God that he had invoked to protect him; which, if he had doubted but for an instant, he had leapt upon him, and gnawed through his spine at the neck. Choronzon succeeded not in his design.)" He is trying every trick to get Neuburg to abandon his oath and compromise his will. It shows in nearly every paragraph... Hopefully there is no need to say that failing to adhere in full to his oath would have been deadly.
"The horror of it will be given in another place and time, and through another Seer, and that Seer shall be slain as a result of his revealing. But the present Seer, who is not P...., seeth not the horror, because he is shut up, and hath no name." Confirmation that Crowley did not partake of this vision as of the others. He was “shut up,” deep within meditation; and he “hath no name,” *i.e., *he was Nemo, “No Man,” a Master of the Temple who had abdicated all within him that would say, “I am I.”
"Then the Seer took the Holy Ring, and wrote the name BABALON, that is victory over Choronzon, and he was no more manifest.)" Crowley emerged from his samadhi. Using his magick ring, he wrote the name BABALON in the sand as a banishment. Babalon is “victory [7 letters = Netzach, “Victory”] over Choronzon.” Upon Crowley’s taking this step, Choronzon was no more present.
The “Note by Scribe” was written after the fact, and therefore is not the words of Choronzon. In these notes are exact instructions for confronting and defeating Choronzon. First... we learn that the demon “is much terrified by silence. And by silence can he be brought to bay.” [A later paragraph] similarly advises that “concentration and silence” defeat him. Finally, [a later paragraph] says that he so fears concentration that he will do almost anything to avoid it. His nature is dispersion!
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Thank you very much for the detailed effort in explaining what went on there. I think it will probably help other people more than it helps me at this point, but I still very much appreciate having been able to read it. And I hope it stays up so that I/we can refer back to it as I/we progress further in our understanding.
I really only have a couple of comments, which at this point I'm just saying to keep in line with the whole thread of honesty I got going here. I understand if I seem like a pain in the butt at this point and if you don't feel like responding.
@Jim Eshelman said
"[One] clue that this record is not of Crowley’s actual experience – only of Neuburg’s experience – is in the symbolism of the name of the Æthyr. ZAX = Leo, Taurus, Earth = Teth, Vav, Tav = 9 + 6 + 400 = 415. To make the point more poignantly, lay out the three Tarot trumps corresponding, Atus XI (Lust), V (The Hierophant), and XXI (The Universe). Meditate on these for several minutes. Feel the energies which originate in the bright, passionate solar ferocity, the white heat of Bhakti taken to its highest peak of fervor of Teth – then the concentration of this solar-phallic force in the essence of his Inmost Teacher, the Holy Guardian Angel – then the dissolution of that into the infinite dark of space, the void of Saturn. This does not at all match what appears in the recorded text of the vision – but we’d bet that it runs pretty close to Crowley’s actual journey!"
I don't really get this whole meditating on tarot thing just yet, but all of the above sounds both "leading the witness" and subjective to me at this point. I've followed your advice before to meditate on certain tarot cards (STN) and, honestly, I might as well have done just about anything else, perhaps some time on the john, since I turned up Jack Squat.
@Jim Eshelman said
"The circle is surrounded with the Divine Name ruling Air, and that of Yesod – the two names traditionally employed to open the Temple of Yesod and of Air. ARARITA is a notariqon expressing the Unity of God...
Not only was Neuburg’s magick circle charged with Air names, but he was armed not only with the quill of the scribe, but with the magick dagger, the chief Air implement. Observe, also the terms of his oath: He is to employ the power of the dagger – the power of intellect – fortified by wariness and cunning. In other words – and adding this to his primary duty of transcribing each thing he heard – his mind is being kept terribly busy while all of this is going on! "
Sounds to me like he was standing there with a knife on the lookout. That's all. Especially since he messed up in his duties. I mean, really, that's how I feel when I'm doing the LBRP. If Crowley was my mentor and I was in that ceremony, I would laugh my butt off if people wrote about me as you've just written about this experience. The guy was there; he had simple instructions; and he didn't know what he was doing, obviously. He just defended himself the best he could. I've had such terrifying psycho experiences on 6 hits of acid. I got through it-- does that make me a hero? "Experienced," maybe, in the words of Hendrix, but hardly knowing my butt from my elbow at such a time; just going by self-preservation instincts.
Really, the operation seems so simple and your description of it sounds like more than anyone could actually concentrate on during such a moment.
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@Redd Fezz said
"Sounds to me like he was standing there with a knife on the lookout. That's all. Especially since he messed up in his duties."
Sigh.
He didn't "mess up" his duties. He performed admirably, and adhered to the terms of his oath."I mean, really, that's how I feel when I'm doing the LBRP. If Crowley was my mentor and I was in that ceremony, I would laugh my butt off if people wrote about me as you've just written about this experience."
Then, apparently, you've never really been involved in magick - the kind you can reach out and touch.
"The guy was there; he had simple instructions; and he didn't know what he was doing, obviously."
Completely unclear where you are getting this statement that you keep repeating, in one or another form.
"Really, the operation seems so simple and your description of it sounds like more than anyone could actually concentrate on during such a moment."
Again: You apparently have never been involved in this sort of thing.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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Sigh. He didn't "mess up" his duties. He performed admirably, and adhered to the terms of his oath."He talked to Choronzon. He was told not to. He was tricked. The circle was broken. He was attacked.
@Jim Eshelman said
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Then, apparently, you've never really been involved in magick - the kind you can reach out and touch."Maybe! Or maybe my experience differs from yours. I've had "demons" in my head for hours on end with no ceremonial training whatsoever. I got through it. I've also had objects thrown across my room with other witnesses to attest to that fact (broke my Turbonegro "Apocalypse Dudes" cd, as a matter of fact, which was weirdly insignificant) ... and I've been "touched" plenty. Lots of weird stuff happened to me before I ever touched drugs, in fact, having grown up in a Jehovah's Witness family, which are prone to demonic activity, as you might be aware. Google their origins and you will see a Catholic priest came up with their basic philosophy while listening to 2 young boys possessed by one spirit named "Celsior."
Good times.... And maybe, also, you're piecing together a mystery which was never fully committed to paper and filling in the missing pieces in a way that most appeals to you.
@Jim Eshelman said
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"The guy was there; he had simple instructions; and he didn't know what he was doing, obviously."Completely unclear where you are getting this statement that you keep repeating, in one or another form."
He talked to Choronzon. He was tricked. He got attacked.
@Jim Eshelman said
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Again: You apparently have never been involved in this sort of thing."Apparently not "this" sort of thing, no.
As for Victor's role in the ceremony, is there written verification for all that you've said about the specifics of this amazing feat he pulled off or are you extrapolating based on your own experience of Air and daggers and whatnot? It seems that his diary entry was pretty small.
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@Redd Fezz said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Sigh. He didn't "mess up" his duties. He performed admirably, and adhered to the terms of his oath."He talked to Choronzon. He was told not to."
I agree that it wasn't the best idea, but... where does it say he was told not to? It certainly wasn't in his oath.
"... And maybe, also, you're piecing together a mystery which was never fully committed to paper and filling in the missing pieces in a way that most appeals to you."
Just describing what happened.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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"The guy was there; he had simple instructions; and he didn't know what he was doing, obviously."Completely unclear where you are getting this statement that you keep repeating, in one or another form."
He talked to Choronzon. He was tricked. He got attacked."
Vide supra. PS - Of course he got attacked. It was to be expected that something like that would happen.
"As for Victor's role in the ceremony, is there written verification for all that you've said about the specifics of this amazing feat he pulled off or are you extrapolating based on your own experience of Air and daggers and whatnot? It seems that his diary entry was pretty small."
What factor that I've said isn't documented in what's given right here in this thread?
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@Jim Eshelman said
"What factor that I've said isn't documented in what's given right here in this thread?"
Did you not go off about what Victor was actually doing, based on your own experience, rather than anything else? Someone who's thought long and hard about the word "dagger" for the last 30 years could probably extrapolate on that all day long. But, I don't see that this proves what Victor was doing or feeling during the process. What do his diaries actually say?
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@Redd Fezz said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"What factor that I've said isn't documented in what's given right here in this thread?"Did you not go off about what Victor was actually doing, based on your own experience, rather than anything else? Someone who's thought long and hard about the word "dagger" for the last 30 years could probably extrapolate on that all day long. But, I don't see that this proves what Victor was doing or feeling during the process. What do his diaries actually say?"
I relaly don't have time to reread this thread. I'm stealing brief moments here and there to give you answers you are requesting.
So, I repeat: What factor (daggerish or otherwise) that I've said isn't documented in what's given right here in this thread?
PS - By virtue of the search function, I see I've said exactly two things about a dagger in this thread.
The first is simply to quote his oath: "I promise to threaten with the Dagger and command back into the triangle the spirit incontinent, if he should strive to escape from it; and to strike with a Dagger at anything that may seek to enter this Circle, were it in appearance the body of the Seer himself."
My other statement was: "Not only was Neuburg’s magick circle charged with Air names, but he was armed not only with the quill of the scribe, but with the magick dagger, the chief Air implement. Observe, also the terms of his oath: He is to employ the power of the dagger – the power of intellect – fortified by wariness and cunning. In other words – and adding this to his primary duty of transcribing each thing he heard – his mind is being kept terribly busy while all of this is going on!"
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@Jim Eshelman said
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I relaly don't have time to reread this thread. I'm stealing brief moments here and there to give you answers you are requesting.So, I repeat: What factor (daggerish or otherwise) that I've said isn't documented in what's given right here in this thread?"
I'm confused because, if you've already typed it, why wouldn't it be documented right here in this thread? That's not the issue I was raising. The issue I was raising was whether or not what you typed was YOUR impression/opinion or straight from Victor's diary. Based on the structure of your previous posts, it was YOUR impression/opinion... unless you were quoting someone ELSE who was NOT Victor. Which was it?
@Jim Eshelman said
"PS - By virtue of the search function, I see I've said exactly two things about a dagger in this thread.
The first is simply to quote his oath: "I promise to threaten with the Dagger and command back into the triangle the spirit incontinent, if he should strive to escape from it; and to strike with a Dagger at anything that may seek to enter this Circle, were it in appearance the body of the Seer himself."
My other statement was: "Not only was Neuburg’s magick circle charged with Air names, but he was armed not only with the quill of the scribe, but with the magick dagger, the chief Air implement. Observe, also the terms of his oath: He is to employ the power of the dagger – the power of intellect – fortified by wariness and cunning. In other words – and adding this to his primary duty of transcribing each thing he heard – his mind is being kept terribly busy while all of this is going on!""
Right. That last statement was what I was referring to as a "for instance" regarding your commentary on the ritual in general. Who knows what he was doing? You've elaborated here on the dagger, meanwhile, he might just have been standing there like a retard for all you know, mesmerized, scared, crapping his pants, etc.
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@Redd Fezz said
"I'm confused because, if you've already typed it, why wouldn't it be documented right here in this thread? That's not the issue I was raising. The issue I was raising was whether or not what you typed was YOUR impression/opinion or straight from Victor's diary. Based on the structure of your previous posts, it was YOUR impression/opinion... unless you were quoting someone ELSE who was NOT Victor. Which was it?"
Again:
Which **specific passages **are you talking about?