Victor Neuberg's & Crowley's initiations
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Excerpts from my commentary on "The Cry of the 10th Aethyr" - the events of that day. (For the record, Copyright College of Thelema, All Rights Reserved.)
Victor's oath of the operation:
"I, Omnia Vincam, a Probationer of A.'.A.'. [he was at least 1=10 at the time, though], hereby solemnly promise upon my magical honour, and swear by Adonai the angel that guardeth me, that I will defend this magic circle of Art with thoughts and words and deeds. I promise to threaten with the Dagger and command back into the triangle the spirit incontinent, if he should strive to escape from it; and to strike with a Dagger at anything that may seek to enter this Circle, were it in appearance the body of the Seer himself. And I will be exceeding wary, armed against force and cunning; and I will preserve with my life the inviolability of this Circle, Amen.
And I summon mine Holy Guardian Angel to witness this mine oath, the which if I break, may I perish, forsaken of Him. Amen and Amen."
For the most part, we do not have a record of Aleister Crowley’s encounter with Choronzon, and the final stage of his crossing of the Abyss. That isn’t what this text records. Almost entirely, it is, the text of Victor Neuburg’s experience of these two hours. Other than the first two lines, and the actions observed in the last, there is virtually nothing of Crowley in it at all. Nor is there a real articulated “vision and voice” of the Æthyr.
Still, this record is our best account of one of the most extraordinary magical events in modern times.
What actually happened? A magical circle was cast, and a triangle of evocation placed outside of it, all very similar to what is recommended in The Goetia. Neuburg was safely placed within the circle to keep watch, and to serve as scribe. Three pigeons were slain, and their blood spilled in the corners of the triangle to serve as an etheric basic for the attraction and manifestation of the demon Choronzon.
But there is one detail the text does not give – which, in fact, Crowley went out of his way to obscure. It is virtually certain that Crowley placed himself in the triangle to serve as the living basis for the manifestation of Choronzon. That is, he invoked Choronzon into himself. His battle with Choronzon was within. His weapons in this battle were concentration and silence. When the text says that he was to “retire to a secret place, where is neither sight nor hearing,” this did not refer to a physical place, but to the depths of meditation.
It makes no difference that the man sitting in the triangle didn’t appear very concentrated or silent. The essence of Crowley was withdrawn, in meditation impenetrable. What was left behind was the shell of his personality, devoid of a guiding central principle. It was in this that Choronzon manifested fully.
What is truly extraordinary, though, is that Neuburg, even late in life, insisted to his intimates that this is not what happened – that he literally fought a demon in the desert that day. There is no reason to believe he thought anything different. The explanation is that Neuburg was a powerful psychic sensitive. He naturally responded to and absorbed nearly any strong psychic impressions. It would seem that the psychic intensity of Crowley’s invocation and inner process was so intense as to impress itself on Neuburg’s mind with the reality of physical sensory conviction.
It was this tremendous psychic sensitivity that required the exceptional precautions Crowley employed. At first, these seem little more than the medieval classic evocation formulæ. They were, in fact much more. An examination of the preliminary details reveals that Neuburg was especially placed in a magical environment attuned to the element Air, and fortified with the tools of Air and the intellect. If “crossing the Abyss” involves the abdication of the particular formulations that constitute the intellect (as it does), then Neuburg’s instructions certainly would ensure that he wouldn’t make such a crossing, wouldn’t get sucked into the vortex of consciousness created by the vacuum of Crowley’s dissolution. Crowley’s preliminaries fixed Neuburg in the Domain of Air, and kept his intellect busy.
[...]
[One] clue that this record is not of Crowley’s actual experience – only of Neuburg’s experience – is in the symbolism of the name of the Æthyr. ZAX = Leo, Taurus, Earth = Teth, Vav, Tav = 9 + 6 + 400 = 415. To make the point more poignantly, lay out the three Tarot trumps corresponding, Atus XI (Lust), V (The Hierophant), and XXI (The Universe). Meditate on these for several minutes. Feel the energies which originate in the bright, passionate solar ferocity, the white heat of Bhakti taken to its highest peak of fervor of Teth – then the concentration of this solar-phallic force in the essence of his Inmost Teacher, the Holy Guardian Angel – then the dissolution of that into the infinite dark of space, the void of Saturn. This does not at all match what appears in the recorded text of the vision – but we’d bet that it runs pretty close to Crowley’s actual journey!
[...]
The circle is surrounded with the Divine Name ruling Air, and that of Yesod – the two names traditionally employed to open the Temple of Yesod and of Air. ARARITA is a notariqon expressing the Unity of God...
Not only was Neuburg’s magick circle charged with Air names, but he was armed not only with the quill of the scribe, but with the magick dagger, the chief Air implement. Observe, also the terms of his oath: He is to employ the power of the dagger – the power of intellect – fortified by wariness and cunning. In other words – and adding this to his primary duty of transcribing each thing he heard – his mind is being kept terribly busy while all of this is going on!
"There is no being in the outermost Abyss, but constant forms come forth from the nothingness of it." This preliminary line appears to describe Crowley’s perception of the Abyss as he started to descend, within himself, into that “secret place, where is neither sight nor hearing.”
"(Here the Spirit simulated the voice of Frater P., which also appeared to come from his station and not from the triangle.)" Choronzon was Frater P. – Crowley – and came from within the triangle where he was seated. The simulation was rather easy, we imagine!
"They have called me the God of laughter, &c. ... Is not thy mercy infinite?" Crowley-as-Choronzon continues speaking. Note that most of what he says during this two-hour period cannot be trusted. He is the God of Lies. As tempting as it may be to derive doctrine from much of this text, it should all be viewed with the greatest suspicion – or, at least, prudence! But it is a great example of how a spirit, during even a fairly benign evocation, can toy with one’s mind and emotions while to wrest the upper hand away from the magician.
"Sprinkle water upon my head. I can hardly go on. (This last was spoken from the triangle in the natural voice of the Frater, which Choronzon again simulated. But he did not succeed in taking the Frater’s form – which was absurd!..." Why would it be absurd that Choronzon, in the triangle, not have Crowley’s form, unless . . . ?
"(Then the demon tried to make the Scribe laugh at Magick, and to think that it was all rubbish, that he might deny the names of God that he had invoked to protect him; which, if he had doubted but for an instant, he had leapt upon him, and gnawed through his spine at the neck. Choronzon succeeded not in his design.)" He is trying every trick to get Neuburg to abandon his oath and compromise his will. It shows in nearly every paragraph... Hopefully there is no need to say that failing to adhere in full to his oath would have been deadly.
"The horror of it will be given in another place and time, and through another Seer, and that Seer shall be slain as a result of his revealing. But the present Seer, who is not P...., seeth not the horror, because he is shut up, and hath no name." Confirmation that Crowley did not partake of this vision as of the others. He was “shut up,” deep within meditation; and he “hath no name,” *i.e., *he was Nemo, “No Man,” a Master of the Temple who had abdicated all within him that would say, “I am I.”
"Then the Seer took the Holy Ring, and wrote the name BABALON, that is victory over Choronzon, and he was no more manifest.)" Crowley emerged from his samadhi. Using his magick ring, he wrote the name BABALON in the sand as a banishment. Babalon is “victory [7 letters = Netzach, “Victory”] over Choronzon.” Upon Crowley’s taking this step, Choronzon was no more present.
The “Note by Scribe” was written after the fact, and therefore is not the words of Choronzon. In these notes are exact instructions for confronting and defeating Choronzon. First... we learn that the demon “is much terrified by silence. And by silence can he be brought to bay.” [A later paragraph] similarly advises that “concentration and silence” defeat him. Finally, [a later paragraph] says that he so fears concentration that he will do almost anything to avoid it. His nature is dispersion!
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Thank you very much for the detailed effort in explaining what went on there. I think it will probably help other people more than it helps me at this point, but I still very much appreciate having been able to read it. And I hope it stays up so that I/we can refer back to it as I/we progress further in our understanding.
I really only have a couple of comments, which at this point I'm just saying to keep in line with the whole thread of honesty I got going here. I understand if I seem like a pain in the butt at this point and if you don't feel like responding.
@Jim Eshelman said
"[One] clue that this record is not of Crowley’s actual experience – only of Neuburg’s experience – is in the symbolism of the name of the Æthyr. ZAX = Leo, Taurus, Earth = Teth, Vav, Tav = 9 + 6 + 400 = 415. To make the point more poignantly, lay out the three Tarot trumps corresponding, Atus XI (Lust), V (The Hierophant), and XXI (The Universe). Meditate on these for several minutes. Feel the energies which originate in the bright, passionate solar ferocity, the white heat of Bhakti taken to its highest peak of fervor of Teth – then the concentration of this solar-phallic force in the essence of his Inmost Teacher, the Holy Guardian Angel – then the dissolution of that into the infinite dark of space, the void of Saturn. This does not at all match what appears in the recorded text of the vision – but we’d bet that it runs pretty close to Crowley’s actual journey!"
I don't really get this whole meditating on tarot thing just yet, but all of the above sounds both "leading the witness" and subjective to me at this point. I've followed your advice before to meditate on certain tarot cards (STN) and, honestly, I might as well have done just about anything else, perhaps some time on the john, since I turned up Jack Squat.
@Jim Eshelman said
"The circle is surrounded with the Divine Name ruling Air, and that of Yesod – the two names traditionally employed to open the Temple of Yesod and of Air. ARARITA is a notariqon expressing the Unity of God...
Not only was Neuburg’s magick circle charged with Air names, but he was armed not only with the quill of the scribe, but with the magick dagger, the chief Air implement. Observe, also the terms of his oath: He is to employ the power of the dagger – the power of intellect – fortified by wariness and cunning. In other words – and adding this to his primary duty of transcribing each thing he heard – his mind is being kept terribly busy while all of this is going on! "
Sounds to me like he was standing there with a knife on the lookout. That's all. Especially since he messed up in his duties. I mean, really, that's how I feel when I'm doing the LBRP. If Crowley was my mentor and I was in that ceremony, I would laugh my butt off if people wrote about me as you've just written about this experience. The guy was there; he had simple instructions; and he didn't know what he was doing, obviously. He just defended himself the best he could. I've had such terrifying psycho experiences on 6 hits of acid. I got through it-- does that make me a hero? "Experienced," maybe, in the words of Hendrix, but hardly knowing my butt from my elbow at such a time; just going by self-preservation instincts.
Really, the operation seems so simple and your description of it sounds like more than anyone could actually concentrate on during such a moment.
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@Redd Fezz said
"Sounds to me like he was standing there with a knife on the lookout. That's all. Especially since he messed up in his duties."
Sigh.
He didn't "mess up" his duties. He performed admirably, and adhered to the terms of his oath."I mean, really, that's how I feel when I'm doing the LBRP. If Crowley was my mentor and I was in that ceremony, I would laugh my butt off if people wrote about me as you've just written about this experience."
Then, apparently, you've never really been involved in magick - the kind you can reach out and touch.
"The guy was there; he had simple instructions; and he didn't know what he was doing, obviously."
Completely unclear where you are getting this statement that you keep repeating, in one or another form.
"Really, the operation seems so simple and your description of it sounds like more than anyone could actually concentrate on during such a moment."
Again: You apparently have never been involved in this sort of thing.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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Sigh. He didn't "mess up" his duties. He performed admirably, and adhered to the terms of his oath."He talked to Choronzon. He was told not to. He was tricked. The circle was broken. He was attacked.
@Jim Eshelman said
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Then, apparently, you've never really been involved in magick - the kind you can reach out and touch."Maybe! Or maybe my experience differs from yours. I've had "demons" in my head for hours on end with no ceremonial training whatsoever. I got through it. I've also had objects thrown across my room with other witnesses to attest to that fact (broke my Turbonegro "Apocalypse Dudes" cd, as a matter of fact, which was weirdly insignificant) ... and I've been "touched" plenty. Lots of weird stuff happened to me before I ever touched drugs, in fact, having grown up in a Jehovah's Witness family, which are prone to demonic activity, as you might be aware. Google their origins and you will see a Catholic priest came up with their basic philosophy while listening to 2 young boys possessed by one spirit named "Celsior."
Good times.... And maybe, also, you're piecing together a mystery which was never fully committed to paper and filling in the missing pieces in a way that most appeals to you.
@Jim Eshelman said
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"The guy was there; he had simple instructions; and he didn't know what he was doing, obviously."Completely unclear where you are getting this statement that you keep repeating, in one or another form."
He talked to Choronzon. He was tricked. He got attacked.
@Jim Eshelman said
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Again: You apparently have never been involved in this sort of thing."Apparently not "this" sort of thing, no.
As for Victor's role in the ceremony, is there written verification for all that you've said about the specifics of this amazing feat he pulled off or are you extrapolating based on your own experience of Air and daggers and whatnot? It seems that his diary entry was pretty small.
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@Redd Fezz said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Sigh. He didn't "mess up" his duties. He performed admirably, and adhered to the terms of his oath."He talked to Choronzon. He was told not to."
I agree that it wasn't the best idea, but... where does it say he was told not to? It certainly wasn't in his oath.
"... And maybe, also, you're piecing together a mystery which was never fully committed to paper and filling in the missing pieces in a way that most appeals to you."
Just describing what happened.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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"The guy was there; he had simple instructions; and he didn't know what he was doing, obviously."Completely unclear where you are getting this statement that you keep repeating, in one or another form."
He talked to Choronzon. He was tricked. He got attacked."
Vide supra. PS - Of course he got attacked. It was to be expected that something like that would happen.
"As for Victor's role in the ceremony, is there written verification for all that you've said about the specifics of this amazing feat he pulled off or are you extrapolating based on your own experience of Air and daggers and whatnot? It seems that his diary entry was pretty small."
What factor that I've said isn't documented in what's given right here in this thread?
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@Jim Eshelman said
"What factor that I've said isn't documented in what's given right here in this thread?"
Did you not go off about what Victor was actually doing, based on your own experience, rather than anything else? Someone who's thought long and hard about the word "dagger" for the last 30 years could probably extrapolate on that all day long. But, I don't see that this proves what Victor was doing or feeling during the process. What do his diaries actually say?
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@Redd Fezz said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"What factor that I've said isn't documented in what's given right here in this thread?"Did you not go off about what Victor was actually doing, based on your own experience, rather than anything else? Someone who's thought long and hard about the word "dagger" for the last 30 years could probably extrapolate on that all day long. But, I don't see that this proves what Victor was doing or feeling during the process. What do his diaries actually say?"
I relaly don't have time to reread this thread. I'm stealing brief moments here and there to give you answers you are requesting.
So, I repeat: What factor (daggerish or otherwise) that I've said isn't documented in what's given right here in this thread?
PS - By virtue of the search function, I see I've said exactly two things about a dagger in this thread.
The first is simply to quote his oath: "I promise to threaten with the Dagger and command back into the triangle the spirit incontinent, if he should strive to escape from it; and to strike with a Dagger at anything that may seek to enter this Circle, were it in appearance the body of the Seer himself."
My other statement was: "Not only was Neuburg’s magick circle charged with Air names, but he was armed not only with the quill of the scribe, but with the magick dagger, the chief Air implement. Observe, also the terms of his oath: He is to employ the power of the dagger – the power of intellect – fortified by wariness and cunning. In other words – and adding this to his primary duty of transcribing each thing he heard – his mind is being kept terribly busy while all of this is going on!"
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@Jim Eshelman said
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I relaly don't have time to reread this thread. I'm stealing brief moments here and there to give you answers you are requesting.So, I repeat: What factor (daggerish or otherwise) that I've said isn't documented in what's given right here in this thread?"
I'm confused because, if you've already typed it, why wouldn't it be documented right here in this thread? That's not the issue I was raising. The issue I was raising was whether or not what you typed was YOUR impression/opinion or straight from Victor's diary. Based on the structure of your previous posts, it was YOUR impression/opinion... unless you were quoting someone ELSE who was NOT Victor. Which was it?
@Jim Eshelman said
"PS - By virtue of the search function, I see I've said exactly two things about a dagger in this thread.
The first is simply to quote his oath: "I promise to threaten with the Dagger and command back into the triangle the spirit incontinent, if he should strive to escape from it; and to strike with a Dagger at anything that may seek to enter this Circle, were it in appearance the body of the Seer himself."
My other statement was: "Not only was Neuburg’s magick circle charged with Air names, but he was armed not only with the quill of the scribe, but with the magick dagger, the chief Air implement. Observe, also the terms of his oath: He is to employ the power of the dagger – the power of intellect – fortified by wariness and cunning. In other words – and adding this to his primary duty of transcribing each thing he heard – his mind is being kept terribly busy while all of this is going on!""
Right. That last statement was what I was referring to as a "for instance" regarding your commentary on the ritual in general. Who knows what he was doing? You've elaborated here on the dagger, meanwhile, he might just have been standing there like a retard for all you know, mesmerized, scared, crapping his pants, etc.
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@Redd Fezz said
"I'm confused because, if you've already typed it, why wouldn't it be documented right here in this thread? That's not the issue I was raising. The issue I was raising was whether or not what you typed was YOUR impression/opinion or straight from Victor's diary. Based on the structure of your previous posts, it was YOUR impression/opinion... unless you were quoting someone ELSE who was NOT Victor. Which was it?"
Again:
Which **specific passages **are you talking about?
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@Redd Fezz said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"My other statement was: "Not only was Neuburg’s magick circle charged with Air names, but he was armed not only with the quill of the scribe, but with the magick dagger, the chief Air implement. Observe, also the terms of his oath: He is to employ the power of the dagger – the power of intellect – fortified by wariness and cunning. In other words – and adding this to his primary duty of transcribing each thing he heard – his mind is being kept terribly busy while all of this is going on!""Right. That last statement was what I was referring to as a "for instance" regarding your commentary on the ritual in general. Who knows what he was doing? You've elaborated here on the dagger, meanwhile, he might just have been standing there like a retard for all you know, mesmerized, scared, crapping his pants, etc."
I haven't elaborated a thing. It's all right there in the record.
Until you specify the exact information that you believe I forged, I'm done here.
Are you questioning my statement that his mind was kept terribly busy? I suppose that's an extrapolation, based on the fact that he was recording every word, wielding a dagger, charged with monitoring everything going on, etc. etc. But all of those component parts are in the record.
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Maybe the problem is that I'm confused on what "the record" is.
Who wrote all the stuff you posted on page one which described every bit of the ritual and quoted Victor? Who wrote it? Who made that "record?" I am talking about the post that begins: "Excerpts from my commentary on "The Cry of the 10th Aethyr" - the events of that day. (For the record, Copyright College of Thelema, All Rights Reserved.) "
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@Redd Fezz said
"Maybe the problem is that I'm confused on what "the record" is.
Who wrote all the stuff you posted on page one which described every bit of the ritual and quoted Victor? Who wrote it? Who made that "record?""
Ah, so you don't know how The Vision & the Voice was produced, is that it? Sorry, I thought you'd been reading about it.
While Crowley was on each vision, Victor was taking down a verbatim transcript of everything he said and of whatever happened. Victor and AC then, soon after each vision, reviewed this and Crowley wrote a copy off of Victor's notes. With minor editing, Crowley's copy became The Vision & the Voice. (During the 10th Aethyr - which is the one we're discussing here - there was a lot more physical stuff happening, so more was required than simply taking dictation!)
In the post you cite, the blue text is straight from the published version of the record.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Redd Fezz said
"Maybe the problem is that I'm confused on what "the record" is.Who wrote all the stuff you posted on page one which described every bit of the ritual and quoted Victor? Who wrote it? Who made that "record?""
Ah, so you don't know how The Vision & the Voice was produced, is that it? Sorry, I thought you'd been reading about it.
While Crowley was on each vision, Victor was taking down a verbatim transcript of everything he said and of whatever happened. Victor and AC then, soon after each vision, reviewed this and Crowley wrote a copy off of Victor's notes. With minor editing, Crowley's copy became The Vision & the Voice. (DCuring the 10th Aethyr - which is the one we're discussing here - there was a lot more physical stuff happening, so more was required than simply taking dictation!)"
Oh please! Like I have anything memorized.
Here are some of the highlights (quotes) of your previous posts:
• For the most part, we do not have a record of Aleister Crowley’s encounter with Choronzon
• But there is one detail the text does not give – which, in fact, Crowley went out of his way to obscure. It is virtually certain that Crowley placed himself in the triangle to serve as the living basis for the manifestation of Choronzon. That is, he invoked Choronzon into himself.
• What is truly extraordinary, though, is that Neuburg, even late in life, insisted to his intimates that this is not what happened – that he literally fought a demon in the desert that day.
Who is writing all this? And who cares what this person thinks? Not me! He was not there! Unless.. this is all the writing of Victor? If so, he needs to get one sense of authorship.
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Thank you. Now I have something to answer.
"Here are some of the highlights (quotes) of your previous posts:
• For the most part, we do not have a record of Aleister Crowley’s encounter with Choronzon"
Correct. Crowley wasn't saying anything. Read the Cry of the 10th Aethyr in The Vision & the Voice - unlike all 29 other chapters, this is not Crowley reciting the events that were occurring. He's deep in meditation, oblivious to everything going on. Victor is just continuing to take down what happened (which includes words coming out of Crowley's mouth as the voice of Choronzon). Read the actual record! It's one of the most widely available occult works ever.
"• But there is one detail the text does not give – which, in fact, Crowley went out of his way to obscure. It is virtually certain that Crowley placed himself in the triangle to serve as the living basis for the manifestation of Choronzon. That is, he invoked Choronzon into himself."
Technically a conclusion - although FWIW one that you started with also. The evidence is in the record, between the lines.
"• What is truly extraordinary, though, is that Neuburg, even late in life, insisted to his intimates that this is not what happened – that he literally fought a demon in the desert that day. "
From interviews with him by Jean Overton FUller in her seminal biography of Victor.
"Who is writing all this? And who cares what this person thinks? Not me! He was not there!"
OK. If you don't care what I think, I'll stop answering your questions. In fact, I'll take a few minutes and go back and delete other answers I've given you, which obviously are just a waste of space to you here.
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Oh, sorry Jim. I thought you were quoting something else. But, it is at least nice to know that this was your writing, which I initially understood to be the case, anyway. I don't mean to imply that your impressions are worthless, just that-- well, like I said-- you weren't there. Can't you see that? I'm sure all your ideas are very poignant and meaninful, with Qabalistic merit and everything, but you can't know what the hell was going on there in Victor's head or how "well" he did, can you?
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@Redd Fezz said
"Oh, sorry Jim. I thought you were quoting something else. But, it is at least nice to know that this was your writing, which I initially understood to be the case, anyway."
That probably would explain why I began the post saying, "Excerpts from my commentary on The Cry of the 10th Aethyr," right?
"I don't mean to imply that your impressions are worthless,"
You didn't imply that at all. Instead, you explicitly stated that you do not care what I think.
"just that-- well, like I said-- you weren't there. Can't you see that?"
Neither were you. Neither was the person you originally quoted. There were only two people there. My remarks are based entirely on the written record that they prepared together and an interview that one of them gave to his primary biographer.
Nonetheless, I'll now get out of your way and go back to deleting answers I've given you in other threads. (I got about a dozen of them deleted before you posted the above.)
"but you can't know what the hell was going on there in Victor's head or how "well" he did, can you?"
Of course I can tell how well he did! We have a record! We know, minute by minute, what he did. We...
...Erp. Excuse me. I slipped and started answering you again. Sorry. Won't happen again.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Redd Fezz said
"Oh, sorry Jim. I thought you were quoting something else. But, it is at least nice to know that this was your writing, which I initially understood to be the case, anyway."That probably would explain why I began the post saying, "Excerpts from my commentary on The Cry of the 10th Aethyr," right?
"Hey, so sue me for not noticing the word "my".
@Jim Eshelman said
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"I don't mean to imply that your impressions are worthless,"You didn't imply that at all. Instead, you explicitly stated that you do not care what I think. "
Yes, but that's different from implying your impressions are worthless, for I was making a specific comment relative to a specific experience.
@Jim Eshelman said
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"just that-- well, like I said-- you weren't there. Can't you see that?"Neither were you. Neither was the person you originally quoted. There were only two people there. My remarks are based entirely on the written record that they prepared together and an interview that one of them gave to his primary biographer."
Right. My remarks were based entirely on the record and my own imagination, too.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Nonetheless, I'll now get out of your way and go back to deleting answers I've given you in other threads. (I got about a dozen of them deleted before you posted the above.)"
Whatever you feel is the right thing to do.
@Jim Eshelman said
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"but you can't know what the hell was going on there in Victor's head or how "well" he did, can you?"Of course I can tell how well he did! We have a record! We know, minute by minute, what he did. We...
...Erp. Excuse me. I slipped and started answering you again. Sorry. Won't happen again."
No problem.
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Re-reading this whole mess in the light of day, I still don't see what the big deal was. I feel bad that I apparently seem to have hurt the feelings of a guy who's gone out of his way to help me and everyone understand Thelema. And since it's his forums, I guess I'll just be kind of backing off now. I"m not sure Crowley is a good fit for me, afterall, anyway.
