Victor Neuberg's & Crowley's initiations
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@Redd Fezz said
"Sounds to me like he was standing there with a knife on the lookout. That's all. Especially since he messed up in his duties."
Sigh.
He didn't "mess up" his duties. He performed admirably, and adhered to the terms of his oath."I mean, really, that's how I feel when I'm doing the LBRP. If Crowley was my mentor and I was in that ceremony, I would laugh my butt off if people wrote about me as you've just written about this experience."
Then, apparently, you've never really been involved in magick - the kind you can reach out and touch.
"The guy was there; he had simple instructions; and he didn't know what he was doing, obviously."
Completely unclear where you are getting this statement that you keep repeating, in one or another form.
"Really, the operation seems so simple and your description of it sounds like more than anyone could actually concentrate on during such a moment."
Again: You apparently have never been involved in this sort of thing.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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Sigh. He didn't "mess up" his duties. He performed admirably, and adhered to the terms of his oath."He talked to Choronzon. He was told not to. He was tricked. The circle was broken. He was attacked.
@Jim Eshelman said
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Then, apparently, you've never really been involved in magick - the kind you can reach out and touch."Maybe! Or maybe my experience differs from yours. I've had "demons" in my head for hours on end with no ceremonial training whatsoever. I got through it. I've also had objects thrown across my room with other witnesses to attest to that fact (broke my Turbonegro "Apocalypse Dudes" cd, as a matter of fact, which was weirdly insignificant) ... and I've been "touched" plenty. Lots of weird stuff happened to me before I ever touched drugs, in fact, having grown up in a Jehovah's Witness family, which are prone to demonic activity, as you might be aware. Google their origins and you will see a Catholic priest came up with their basic philosophy while listening to 2 young boys possessed by one spirit named "Celsior."
Good times.... And maybe, also, you're piecing together a mystery which was never fully committed to paper and filling in the missing pieces in a way that most appeals to you.
@Jim Eshelman said
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"The guy was there; he had simple instructions; and he didn't know what he was doing, obviously."Completely unclear where you are getting this statement that you keep repeating, in one or another form."
He talked to Choronzon. He was tricked. He got attacked.
@Jim Eshelman said
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Again: You apparently have never been involved in this sort of thing."Apparently not "this" sort of thing, no.
As for Victor's role in the ceremony, is there written verification for all that you've said about the specifics of this amazing feat he pulled off or are you extrapolating based on your own experience of Air and daggers and whatnot? It seems that his diary entry was pretty small.
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@Redd Fezz said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Sigh. He didn't "mess up" his duties. He performed admirably, and adhered to the terms of his oath."He talked to Choronzon. He was told not to."
I agree that it wasn't the best idea, but... where does it say he was told not to? It certainly wasn't in his oath.
"... And maybe, also, you're piecing together a mystery which was never fully committed to paper and filling in the missing pieces in a way that most appeals to you."
Just describing what happened.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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"The guy was there; he had simple instructions; and he didn't know what he was doing, obviously."Completely unclear where you are getting this statement that you keep repeating, in one or another form."
He talked to Choronzon. He was tricked. He got attacked."
Vide supra. PS - Of course he got attacked. It was to be expected that something like that would happen.
"As for Victor's role in the ceremony, is there written verification for all that you've said about the specifics of this amazing feat he pulled off or are you extrapolating based on your own experience of Air and daggers and whatnot? It seems that his diary entry was pretty small."
What factor that I've said isn't documented in what's given right here in this thread?
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@Jim Eshelman said
"What factor that I've said isn't documented in what's given right here in this thread?"
Did you not go off about what Victor was actually doing, based on your own experience, rather than anything else? Someone who's thought long and hard about the word "dagger" for the last 30 years could probably extrapolate on that all day long. But, I don't see that this proves what Victor was doing or feeling during the process. What do his diaries actually say?
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@Redd Fezz said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"What factor that I've said isn't documented in what's given right here in this thread?"Did you not go off about what Victor was actually doing, based on your own experience, rather than anything else? Someone who's thought long and hard about the word "dagger" for the last 30 years could probably extrapolate on that all day long. But, I don't see that this proves what Victor was doing or feeling during the process. What do his diaries actually say?"
I relaly don't have time to reread this thread. I'm stealing brief moments here and there to give you answers you are requesting.
So, I repeat: What factor (daggerish or otherwise) that I've said isn't documented in what's given right here in this thread?
PS - By virtue of the search function, I see I've said exactly two things about a dagger in this thread.
The first is simply to quote his oath: "I promise to threaten with the Dagger and command back into the triangle the spirit incontinent, if he should strive to escape from it; and to strike with a Dagger at anything that may seek to enter this Circle, were it in appearance the body of the Seer himself."
My other statement was: "Not only was Neuburg’s magick circle charged with Air names, but he was armed not only with the quill of the scribe, but with the magick dagger, the chief Air implement. Observe, also the terms of his oath: He is to employ the power of the dagger – the power of intellect – fortified by wariness and cunning. In other words – and adding this to his primary duty of transcribing each thing he heard – his mind is being kept terribly busy while all of this is going on!"
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@Jim Eshelman said
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I relaly don't have time to reread this thread. I'm stealing brief moments here and there to give you answers you are requesting.So, I repeat: What factor (daggerish or otherwise) that I've said isn't documented in what's given right here in this thread?"
I'm confused because, if you've already typed it, why wouldn't it be documented right here in this thread? That's not the issue I was raising. The issue I was raising was whether or not what you typed was YOUR impression/opinion or straight from Victor's diary. Based on the structure of your previous posts, it was YOUR impression/opinion... unless you were quoting someone ELSE who was NOT Victor. Which was it?
@Jim Eshelman said
"PS - By virtue of the search function, I see I've said exactly two things about a dagger in this thread.
The first is simply to quote his oath: "I promise to threaten with the Dagger and command back into the triangle the spirit incontinent, if he should strive to escape from it; and to strike with a Dagger at anything that may seek to enter this Circle, were it in appearance the body of the Seer himself."
My other statement was: "Not only was Neuburg’s magick circle charged with Air names, but he was armed not only with the quill of the scribe, but with the magick dagger, the chief Air implement. Observe, also the terms of his oath: He is to employ the power of the dagger – the power of intellect – fortified by wariness and cunning. In other words – and adding this to his primary duty of transcribing each thing he heard – his mind is being kept terribly busy while all of this is going on!""
Right. That last statement was what I was referring to as a "for instance" regarding your commentary on the ritual in general. Who knows what he was doing? You've elaborated here on the dagger, meanwhile, he might just have been standing there like a retard for all you know, mesmerized, scared, crapping his pants, etc.
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@Redd Fezz said
"I'm confused because, if you've already typed it, why wouldn't it be documented right here in this thread? That's not the issue I was raising. The issue I was raising was whether or not what you typed was YOUR impression/opinion or straight from Victor's diary. Based on the structure of your previous posts, it was YOUR impression/opinion... unless you were quoting someone ELSE who was NOT Victor. Which was it?"
Again:
Which **specific passages **are you talking about?
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@Redd Fezz said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"My other statement was: "Not only was Neuburg’s magick circle charged with Air names, but he was armed not only with the quill of the scribe, but with the magick dagger, the chief Air implement. Observe, also the terms of his oath: He is to employ the power of the dagger – the power of intellect – fortified by wariness and cunning. In other words – and adding this to his primary duty of transcribing each thing he heard – his mind is being kept terribly busy while all of this is going on!""Right. That last statement was what I was referring to as a "for instance" regarding your commentary on the ritual in general. Who knows what he was doing? You've elaborated here on the dagger, meanwhile, he might just have been standing there like a retard for all you know, mesmerized, scared, crapping his pants, etc."
I haven't elaborated a thing. It's all right there in the record.
Until you specify the exact information that you believe I forged, I'm done here.
Are you questioning my statement that his mind was kept terribly busy? I suppose that's an extrapolation, based on the fact that he was recording every word, wielding a dagger, charged with monitoring everything going on, etc. etc. But all of those component parts are in the record.
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Maybe the problem is that I'm confused on what "the record" is.
Who wrote all the stuff you posted on page one which described every bit of the ritual and quoted Victor? Who wrote it? Who made that "record?" I am talking about the post that begins: "Excerpts from my commentary on "The Cry of the 10th Aethyr" - the events of that day. (For the record, Copyright College of Thelema, All Rights Reserved.) "
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@Redd Fezz said
"Maybe the problem is that I'm confused on what "the record" is.
Who wrote all the stuff you posted on page one which described every bit of the ritual and quoted Victor? Who wrote it? Who made that "record?""
Ah, so you don't know how The Vision & the Voice was produced, is that it? Sorry, I thought you'd been reading about it.
While Crowley was on each vision, Victor was taking down a verbatim transcript of everything he said and of whatever happened. Victor and AC then, soon after each vision, reviewed this and Crowley wrote a copy off of Victor's notes. With minor editing, Crowley's copy became The Vision & the Voice. (During the 10th Aethyr - which is the one we're discussing here - there was a lot more physical stuff happening, so more was required than simply taking dictation!)
In the post you cite, the blue text is straight from the published version of the record.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Redd Fezz said
"Maybe the problem is that I'm confused on what "the record" is.Who wrote all the stuff you posted on page one which described every bit of the ritual and quoted Victor? Who wrote it? Who made that "record?""
Ah, so you don't know how The Vision & the Voice was produced, is that it? Sorry, I thought you'd been reading about it.
While Crowley was on each vision, Victor was taking down a verbatim transcript of everything he said and of whatever happened. Victor and AC then, soon after each vision, reviewed this and Crowley wrote a copy off of Victor's notes. With minor editing, Crowley's copy became The Vision & the Voice. (DCuring the 10th Aethyr - which is the one we're discussing here - there was a lot more physical stuff happening, so more was required than simply taking dictation!)"
Oh please! Like I have anything memorized.
Here are some of the highlights (quotes) of your previous posts:
• For the most part, we do not have a record of Aleister Crowley’s encounter with Choronzon
• But there is one detail the text does not give – which, in fact, Crowley went out of his way to obscure. It is virtually certain that Crowley placed himself in the triangle to serve as the living basis for the manifestation of Choronzon. That is, he invoked Choronzon into himself.
• What is truly extraordinary, though, is that Neuburg, even late in life, insisted to his intimates that this is not what happened – that he literally fought a demon in the desert that day.
Who is writing all this? And who cares what this person thinks? Not me! He was not there! Unless.. this is all the writing of Victor? If so, he needs to get one sense of authorship.
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Thank you. Now I have something to answer.
"Here are some of the highlights (quotes) of your previous posts:
• For the most part, we do not have a record of Aleister Crowley’s encounter with Choronzon"
Correct. Crowley wasn't saying anything. Read the Cry of the 10th Aethyr in The Vision & the Voice - unlike all 29 other chapters, this is not Crowley reciting the events that were occurring. He's deep in meditation, oblivious to everything going on. Victor is just continuing to take down what happened (which includes words coming out of Crowley's mouth as the voice of Choronzon). Read the actual record! It's one of the most widely available occult works ever.
"• But there is one detail the text does not give – which, in fact, Crowley went out of his way to obscure. It is virtually certain that Crowley placed himself in the triangle to serve as the living basis for the manifestation of Choronzon. That is, he invoked Choronzon into himself."
Technically a conclusion - although FWIW one that you started with also. The evidence is in the record, between the lines.
"• What is truly extraordinary, though, is that Neuburg, even late in life, insisted to his intimates that this is not what happened – that he literally fought a demon in the desert that day. "
From interviews with him by Jean Overton FUller in her seminal biography of Victor.
"Who is writing all this? And who cares what this person thinks? Not me! He was not there!"
OK. If you don't care what I think, I'll stop answering your questions. In fact, I'll take a few minutes and go back and delete other answers I've given you, which obviously are just a waste of space to you here.
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Oh, sorry Jim. I thought you were quoting something else. But, it is at least nice to know that this was your writing, which I initially understood to be the case, anyway. I don't mean to imply that your impressions are worthless, just that-- well, like I said-- you weren't there. Can't you see that? I'm sure all your ideas are very poignant and meaninful, with Qabalistic merit and everything, but you can't know what the hell was going on there in Victor's head or how "well" he did, can you?
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@Redd Fezz said
"Oh, sorry Jim. I thought you were quoting something else. But, it is at least nice to know that this was your writing, which I initially understood to be the case, anyway."
That probably would explain why I began the post saying, "Excerpts from my commentary on The Cry of the 10th Aethyr," right?
"I don't mean to imply that your impressions are worthless,"
You didn't imply that at all. Instead, you explicitly stated that you do not care what I think.
"just that-- well, like I said-- you weren't there. Can't you see that?"
Neither were you. Neither was the person you originally quoted. There were only two people there. My remarks are based entirely on the written record that they prepared together and an interview that one of them gave to his primary biographer.
Nonetheless, I'll now get out of your way and go back to deleting answers I've given you in other threads. (I got about a dozen of them deleted before you posted the above.)
"but you can't know what the hell was going on there in Victor's head or how "well" he did, can you?"
Of course I can tell how well he did! We have a record! We know, minute by minute, what he did. We...
...Erp. Excuse me. I slipped and started answering you again. Sorry. Won't happen again.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Redd Fezz said
"Oh, sorry Jim. I thought you were quoting something else. But, it is at least nice to know that this was your writing, which I initially understood to be the case, anyway."That probably would explain why I began the post saying, "Excerpts from my commentary on The Cry of the 10th Aethyr," right?
"Hey, so sue me for not noticing the word "my".
@Jim Eshelman said
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"I don't mean to imply that your impressions are worthless,"You didn't imply that at all. Instead, you explicitly stated that you do not care what I think. "
Yes, but that's different from implying your impressions are worthless, for I was making a specific comment relative to a specific experience.
@Jim Eshelman said
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"just that-- well, like I said-- you weren't there. Can't you see that?"Neither were you. Neither was the person you originally quoted. There were only two people there. My remarks are based entirely on the written record that they prepared together and an interview that one of them gave to his primary biographer."
Right. My remarks were based entirely on the record and my own imagination, too.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Nonetheless, I'll now get out of your way and go back to deleting answers I've given you in other threads. (I got about a dozen of them deleted before you posted the above.)"
Whatever you feel is the right thing to do.
@Jim Eshelman said
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"but you can't know what the hell was going on there in Victor's head or how "well" he did, can you?"Of course I can tell how well he did! We have a record! We know, minute by minute, what he did. We...
...Erp. Excuse me. I slipped and started answering you again. Sorry. Won't happen again."
No problem.
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Re-reading this whole mess in the light of day, I still don't see what the big deal was. I feel bad that I apparently seem to have hurt the feelings of a guy who's gone out of his way to help me and everyone understand Thelema. And since it's his forums, I guess I'll just be kind of backing off now. I"m not sure Crowley is a good fit for me, afterall, anyway.
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RF, 93,
How about just looking at all of this, and then quietly meditating on what the big deal was? Because obviously, it <b>was</b> a big deal, and therefore there's very valuable information in here for you - and about you. Don't post to the forum about it, or try to get conscious control over the data. Just let it stew just at the back of your consciousness for a few days.
One thing I do note is your reference to all the uncontrolled manifestations you mentioned in your J's Witnesses phase and in your occult work. That seems, to my eye, to relate somehow to your concern over such things happening in the Tunisian desert a century ago. I don't want to feed my own ideas in here, so I won't, other than saying I bet there's something of value to reflect on there.
93 93/93,
Edward
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@Edward Mason said
"RF, 93,
How about just looking at all of this, and then quietly meditating on what the big deal was? Because obviously, it <b>was</b> a big deal, and therefore there's very valuable information in here for you - and about you. Don't post to the forum about it, or try to get conscious control over the data. Just let it stew just at the back of your consciousness for a few days.
One thing I do note is your reference to all the uncontrolled manifestations you mentioned in your J's Witnesses phase and in your occult work. That seems, to my eye, to relate somehow to your concern over such things happening in the Tunisian desert a century ago. I don't want to feed my own ideas in here, so I won't, other than saying I bet there's something of value to reflect on there.
93 93/93,
Edward"
I really don't think it was a big deal. That was my whole point in trying to get down to the nitty gritty of this whole situation. It sounds like Crowley tried to take the "quick and dirty" road to enlightenment and came back with ideas nobody had ever heard of before.
How it ties in with my JW history is really simple: if something goes flying across the room, I wouldn't expect whatever threw it to enlighten me. Same thing with the "demons in my head" remark (I was referring to magical operations combined with different psychedelics at different times); after enduring hours of fear and insanity, including all sorts of visions (and I really thought my life and mind were over), in the end I got through it. It certainly doesn't mean I knew what I was doing.
In fact, to give you an idea how MUCH I didn't know what I was doing, one semi-recent pathworking of Yesod (no psychedelics, I don't do them anymore) ended with alligators leaping out of the water, much to my surprise, slipping under my feet and running me into the sunrise like a pair of water skiis, but I had no clue Horus had any relation to Diana or Yesod or that he was ever pictured standing on the back of crocodiles! I only discovered that after some Googling trying to figure out wtf happened. Once I realized a definite experience was there, I actually <i>did</i> do a psychedelic ritual for the first time in YEARS on April Fool's day of this year using baby hawaiian rosewood seeds. I certainly felt like I went to the Abyss and back! It was horrific, but by the end I felt "reborn." It was very hard to put into words-- so I stopped trying! I've basically forgotten about it at this point. I have a theory that anything you forget isn't worth remembering. The idea that someone lived through a frightening demonic experience does not mean much to me, in general! Except, maybe, that they played with the bull and got the horns. Maybe play with something more friendly next time. Certainly, I wouldn't trust anything that resulted from the experience.
