LLLL and the 4 elements...

Jim Eshelman

"from this part i bolded i would see it as:

Y=bull,life,fire
H=man,liberty,water
V=lion,light,air
H=serpent,love,earth"

In the model he was using, he intended Man to mean Aquarius = Air and Serpent to mean Scorpio = Water.

Draco Magnus

93

"Microcosmic order based on ADNI as Divine Name of Malkuth:
East Air (A), South Fire (D), West Water (N), North Earth (Y).

Macrocosmic order based on YHVH as Divine Name of Tiphereth:
East Fire (Y), North Water (H), West Air (V), South Earth (H).

There is a third sequence never mentioned, but visible on inspection even in the earliest of the Golden Dawn rituals. It is a Supernal pattern based on AHYH as Divine Name of Kether:
East Air (A), West Earth (H), South Fire (Y), North Water (H). "

Oooh, I have new found respect for the system. Very interesting, I had thought that the directions and attributes were static.

93, 93/93

HPK

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Maybe this questions sounds stupid, but what is the souce for Light, Life, Love and Liberty? I mean, historically, who used this before Crowley?

Love is the law, love under will.

B.

Jim Eshelman

"Light, Life, Love" was fairly common. For example, it was the (alleged) name of the central European temple from which the Golden Dawn claimed descent.

I believe adding "Liberty" was Crowley's invitation.

Jim Eshelman

@Fra.'. SPQR said

"
@Jim Eshelman said
""Light, Life, Love" was fairly common. For example, it was the (alleged) name of the central European temple from which the Golden Dawn claimed descent.

I believe adding "Liberty" was Crowley's invitation."

The Order in question was named Gold und Rosenkreutz (Gold and Rose Cross), not "Light, Life, Love.""

I said the temple - not the order. (And G. und R. was from the 18th C. and may not have had a direct connection.)

In the (alleged) correspondence from G.H. Sor. S.D.A., the order was identified as "Die Goldene Dämmerung." The last paragraph of the first letter, from November 1887, reads: "Please write to me again and kindly seal the letter you send addressed to me, enclosing it in an envelope which is addressed to the Lodge of Light, Love, and Life (Licht Liebe Leben), the address of which you know."

HPK

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

In fact, my question was motivated with following:

First Golden Dawn Temple was Licht Liebe Leben, as Mister Eshelman said. Second (about whom I don't know anything also) was Hermanubis and
just the third was Isis-Urania. Anna Sprengel atrributed original manuscripts to the Eliphas Levy, I really can't know as a owner or as author. That is funny, just because in this case Aleister Crowley in one incarnation is responsible for creating of the Golden Dawn, and in next incarnation for the destroying of the Golden Dawn.
OK, I googled a little. It seems that these phrase comes from John's Gospel. That opens another question. Is Thelema rejection of Christianity, or Thelema is redefining and just different valorisation of Christianity?
Old truth new understanding? In this sense Thelema wouldn't be anti but post Christian with redefinning of some of Christians postulats, not rejecting them? I also have some ideas/questions about the dove Star of Babalon in the light of christian simbology and possible connection with the
Holy Spirit, but I don;t want to bother you too much

Love is the law, love under will.

B.

Jim Eshelman

@HPK said

"OK, I googled a little. It seems that these phrase comes from John's Gospel."

Can you give a citation? I can't find it from a search of John's gospel.

"That opens another question. Is Thelema rejection of Christianity, or Thelema is redefining and just different valorisation of Christianity?
Old truth new understanding?
"
Big question, worthy of thought and discussion. I don't have time today to give a thoughtful answer, and others may want to join in. I'd suggest you start a new thread just on that subject and see where the discussion goes.

Chris Hanlon

www.a1books.com/cgi-bin/mktSearch?act=showDesc&code=gbase&rel=1&ITEM_CODE=B0006CAM6E

There's a book by that name, but also could it be John of the Cross?
In L.V.X.,
chrys333

HPK

@Jim Eshelman said

"
@HPK said
"OK, I googled a little. It seems that these phrase comes from John's Gospel."

Can you give a citation? I can't find it from a search of John's gospel."

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

I apologize, not the Gospel but First Epistle of John. Here is the description from the Theopedia:

Author and Date

The apostle John wrote this letter probably between 85 A.D. and 90 A.D. from the city of Ephesus in Asia Minor.
[edit]
Blueprint

The first epistle of John is generally divided up into three parts:

* God is light (1:1 - 2:27)
* God is love (2:28 - 4:21)
* God is life (5:1-21)

John wrote about the most vital aspects of faith so that readers would know Christian truth from error. He emphasizes the basics of faith so that we can be confident in our faith. In our dark world, God is light. In our cold world, God brings the warmth of love. In our dying world, God brings life. When we lack confidence, these truths bring us certainty.

source: www.theopedia.com/First_Epistle_of_John

"That opens another question. Is Thelema rejection of Christianity, or Thelema is redefining and just different valorisation of Christianity?
Old truth new understanding?
"
Big question, worthy of thought and discussion. I don't have time today to give a thoughtful answer, and others may want to join in. I'd suggest you start a new thread just on that subject and see where the discussion goes."
"

It seems we will have great discussion about this. Now I am tired and have to do some other things, but tomorrow I am going to start this new thread.

Jim Eshelman

@evolver said

"One problem i've been considering as i work this morning, is that from my understanding, the paths describe upward moving energy, as opposed to the Fire Flash from kether to malkuth. So the path of Gimel is a flaw here ... as that energy wouldn't descend by it."

The traditional (initiatic) model is not so much that the Paths describe upward-moving energy but that, in simple terms, our perception is that we are moving up the Paths.

I think the best model for understanding this is that the Paths portray consciousness always stream downward - into manifestation - but that, as we open our denser faculties to subtler levels, permitting this in-streaming, we appear to move upward (i.e., inward).

Thus, the Path of Tav wouldn't be undestood so much as "the way to move up from Malkuth to Yesod," but, rather, as "Malkuth opening to admit the instreaming of Yesod." Either modelling ends in a "moving" from the experience of only Malkuth to the experience of Yesod. This way of modelling language has the advantage that it correctly portrays the progressive awakening of new faculties and channels, a growing.