true love
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well, hmm good question jim, one girl, who i wasnt in love with and who wasnt a thelemite, kinda shrugged and i think might have took it as a insult.
but generally thelemites that i have dated at least told me that that was a really cool idea, and thought it may help my attain knowledge & conversation with my HGA. i think (of course i am very very low on the path to when i attain this) that it would best help myself attain this, by trying to connect all with my HGA, this might not be good, but sorta like the oath of the abyss "i will interpete every event as an interaction with god and my soul." so i kinda try to see alot of events, not every, as an interaction with me and my HGA, is in my HGA is communicating with me trying to teach me something, or make me feel his/her love.93s
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@bethata418 said
"well, hmm good question jim, one girl, who i wasnt in love with and who wasnt a thelemite, kinda shrugged and i think might have took it as a insult.
"Brother, as devil's advocate and a stimulation to discussion, I ask: How could you NOT be in love with her if what you previously said is true:
"I have told lovers before this, that my holy guardian angel has chose them to be a vessel of my angels love to me. that the emotions i feel towards them, is really on a plane that can not really completely be understood, is emotions that me and my angel are exchanging and my lover is only a medium of this exchange."
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yeah i mean though i can not fully comprehend this, i believe that all experience is a one on one relationship with god, and if she is the vessel of my god, then in fact she is my god.
but i mean these are things i think it is hard for the mind to grasp, and maybe some may disagree, but i totally feel that the more we can associate our mind to our HGA the better our relatioship with our HGA will become until we finally attain K & C w/ our HGA.any opinions??
93s
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@bethata418 said
"yeah i mean though i can not fully comprehend this, i believe that all experience is a one on one relationship with god, and if she is the vessel of my god, then in fact she is my god."
I offer the following propositions for your consideration:
While agreeing with the above statement, it is also true that, unless you grasp her distinctive, actual humanness, and its participation in the event, you are actually missing the event - on all planes.
You cannot unite Heaven and Earth (so to speak) unless you are as fully in Earth as you are in Heaven.
This is true regardless of the fact that, on a certain plane, she doesn't exist except as your projection. The nature of the human condition requires that you act and feel as if she exists.
I offer the above propositions for your consideration.
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no i totally agree, i mean a react with her in her humanness, her human mistakes just as mine, and all that. its just i know though i do not understand, that she is also a vessel of my god. but i can not see this, the only time i even normally get a glimpse of this, or at least so i can say with my present lover, is during sex, and sexual involvement. my joy is in her joy, and i see this as satisfying not only her but also my god, as my god satisfies me. but all other times, truthful i can almost never see my god in her.
is this kinda what u are saying, or am i missing your point jim????
thanks
93s
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hey Gunner 93,
I agree with you that there is an interaction between you and your HGA when your with your lover, but I also think the fact that you are still interacting with another human being; another star, must be taken into consideration. "Every man and every woman is a star." Your lovers do serve as a vessel for your HGA to communicate with you, however, they are their own entities, with their own wills & HGA's, etc. And while you are expressing love for your HGA through sexual intimacy with your lover or any other way that you interact with your lover, you are expressing your love for that individual at the same time. This is just my opinion though.
93 93/93
Reef
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@Ra-Imhotep said
"hey Gunner 93,
I agree with you that there is an interaction between you and your HGA when your with your lover, but I also think the fact that you are still interacting with another human being; another star, must be taken into consideration. "
Very good point! At one level your HGA is interacting with you through the other person, but your partner does not cease to be their own unique star with thier own free will. Your HGA can't decide they don't want anything to do with you (only you can do that), but your partner with free will can do as they will, which can include saying $#@ off! and leaving.
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i definetly definetly totally know and love and respect my lover for the star that they are, but i also kinda see what is happening as hints from my HGA. only hints i respect her as a person and an individual star, but all is under the control of my angel for the purpose of my greaterment, or at least i believe that. if she leaves me it is cause my HGA needs to teach me something, or take me another way, or her use of my betterment is over.
i mean with all this said this is in the very very back of my mind, most of the time, but for me it makes all make perfect sense. i could be wrong though. maybe its just a way for me to cope as well?93s
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93 Bethata418,
You said: "if she leaves me it is cause my HGA needs to teach me something."
I'd like to suggest another POV to ponder. If she leaves then it is HER that did it, not the HGA. She has free will. However, the HGA can take any event in your life and teach you with it if you're open. To say she left BECAUSE the HGA needed to teach you something implys that she did not have free will. In my alternative pov she used her free will and left but then the HGA took that situation and taught you something. Just as she loves you with her own free will (otherwise it is not love without free will) but the HGA can work through that love.
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well yeah of course, but i try to see my HGA with in every event in my life, though i fail miserably most of the time (LOL). i think the more we can think about our HGA, and find connections in life to our HGA, the closer we come to our HGA. but i mean these are just things i sometimes try to analyse in the back of my mind, to make events make since in the long run on the middle path.
but thats for your opinion bro
93s
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Be ever mindful of obsession. It it ever present and tends to sneak up on you.
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93 and Thankyou for sharing your thoughts on loving scarlet women. I've never explained anything like that to any of my lovers, but there's thoughts that run along similar lines somewhat. I remind myself of this: "Love is the law, love under will. Nor let fools mistake love; for there are love and love. There is the dove and there is the serpent. Choose ye well!" When I am attracted sexually to a woman or man, I ask myself if this love will be received by me through dove or serpent. Then I will ask myself how will I give my love-by dove or serpent. Whatever choice I make, the winged-serpent of Hadit is what I will achieve, but when loving either I have different methods in gaining this union. One that is easy to explain and which serves in both cases relates to the House of Tum (or Atum)-Atum's fellatio with himself created the cosmos; so this sexual act is felt by me as though it is auto-fellatio also, and in particular worship of Hadit because it is two to one, reverting from the creative act of one to two-knowledge of death and of devouring- and there be nothing fertile about it. By their very nature, a dove will always give you this. If I am the dove to their serpent, I will be the one to give. However, I am often most in my sexual element in bdsm practices where serpentine energy is generally always powerful within everyone involved- so the caduceus; and bdsm is a communication, it is very mercurial in varying in so many controlled degrees, and is both healing and harmful; although I wouldnt express it as that literally, but to mean pleasure and pain. Now you may see why I would never begin to explain certain things to my lovers (less talk, more action!); besides I feel there is no reason for them to know.
Re: Holy whores. No wonder the nun fetish is popular in our times.
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93,
"By their very nature, a dove will always give you this. If I am the dove to their serpent, I will be the one to give."
Would you mind elaborating on this? I am clueless to significance of the sexual application of this principal, and I was also under the impression that the serpent love is more material based i:e "I just want to do this person for my own sexual gratification" as opposed to the dove, which I felt was more in line with "Well, I love this person and I will allow them to be themselves even if I do not agree with them all of the time"...then again, this is a reflection of my limited, juvenille and very trivial perception of love
I am very eager to learn more about this serpent and dove business 
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There are, of course, different way to understand the dove-serpent symbolism; but the initiated interpretation Soror Meral gave me is exactly the opposite of my initial instinct.
My instinct was to regard the dove as spiritualized and the serpent as carnal. She taught me that the dove is that which descends - Hadit dropping down his head - and the serpent is that which ascends - the rising, spiritualized kundalini, Hadit lifting up his head to Nuit.
Again, I admit that different people can look at this differently, just thought I'd pass along the teaching.
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93,
Thanks for that interp Jim. It seems a similar to what you were saying El, but now I have another question (and I apologize if I am being pesty or even beating a dead horse) but now it seems that the roles have been reversed. If I'm permitted to ask (or, if I am permitted to recieve an answer rather) does the dove have something to do with Nuit?93 93/93
Shariyf -
"" She taught me that the dove is that which descends - Hadit dropping down his head - and the serpent is that which ascends - the rising, spiritualized kundalini, Hadit lifting up his head to Nuit.""
Thanks, Jim. Very beautiful image. Love.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
@Ra-Imhotep said
"does the dove have something to do with Nuit?"
The dove is the traditional bird of Venus/Aprhrodite, and the descending dove is a Christian symbol of the Holy Ghost - which often (but not universally) is regarded as feminine (probably from a Christian residuum of the Jewish doctrine of the Shekinah).
But Crowley was equally taken with Catullus' poetic equation of the dove with the phallus.
If we take the simple up-down sequence - Hadit "lifting up his head" unto Nuit in the raising of kundalini, and "dropping down his head and shooting forth venom" in physical sexual orgasm, then the dove, as "that which drops down," becomes the sybol not of the rarified spiritual aspect but, rather, of the most physical expression. And, in fact, in the Vision & the Voice and the Gnostic Mass, the moment of orgasm is singled by the onomatapoetic sound of a dove, hriliu.
A dove arguably represents sexual fertility in other contexts that often are interpreted more astractly but, in fact, seem to be quite physical and actual. One is the moment of Jesus' conception within Mary. Another is the symbol of new life and promise of prosperity of the dove returning to Noah with a sign of new growth.
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Thanks a lot Jim. I felt something there but just couldn't get a handle on it.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"She taught me that the dove is that which descends - Hadit dropping down his head - and the serpent is that which ascends - the rising, spiritualized kundalini, Hadit lifting up his head to Nuit."
Let me add my voice of thanks to the chorus for this, too. A neat insight. In some ways, does this reflect in the difference in symbolism between the OTO and the TOT lamens? (A scarab is not a snake, of course, but it's still ascending...)
It also brings to mind that infamous chapter of The Book of Lies...
"This is the Holy Hexagram.
Plunge from the height, O God, and interlock with Man!
Plunge from the height, O Man, and interlock with Beast!
The Red Triangle is the descending tongue of grace; the Blue Triangle is the ascending tongue of prayer"It's a chicken-and-the-egg problem, isn't it? (no pun intended!) You need both!
Finally, T. S. Eliot's Four Quartets is just chock full of descending doves, tongues of flame, tons of sentiment-free Agape... and the darn thing ends with
" And all shall be well and
All manner of things shall be well
When the tongues of flame are infolded
Into the crowned knot of fire
And the fire and the rose are one."I apologize if I've strayed too far from the main topic of this thread. I hope it's interesting to see how these ideas crop up elsewhere.
Steve
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@Jim Eshelman said
"What consequences did this have (if any) on the long-term progress of your relationship(s)?"
I was thinking the same
About 10 yrs ago one of my fellow Travelers said the same to his lover, and she demanded that when they have sex, he must think only of her, otherwise they don't do it