Definition of a Thelemite
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"I would submit that most Thelemites in the world call themselves all sorts of other things and rarely, if ever, call themselves Thelemites."
True enough...I generally just call myself, Rey. But, I was working from the tread of this discussion in my defining the label of what is a Thelemite?
Personally, those who call us thelemites can do no wrong.
So, Do what THOU wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
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"And yet - to repeat my initial position above just to rattle some cages Twisted Evil - if Liber L. is consulted on the matter, "Thelemite" only appears as a lable that other people call us. The one thing this seems to exclude is self-labelling. "
I sincerely believe that there is a reason for this choice in self or Self-labeling as the case may be. The choice is inherent to us as 'thelemites' to call ourselves whatever is in alignment with our Truth...our true will. I suspect that calling our self a thelemite is most appropriate if we understand what the label means to us and why we use it.
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@Froclown said
"even one's ego ends must submit to WILL, thus it's not egoism.
It's a trans-egoist WILL."
Your choice of pronouns in your original comments belies this sentiment.
You sure put a large number of restrictions on what it is to be a Thelemite. Since you don't have the slightest inkling of my purpose in life, you have no idea whether it's necessary for me to, for instance, maintain good standing in the public eye, or offer assistance without expecting anything in return, two things which you apparently find anathema to the work.
@Froclown said
"Thelema = be unique and conquer the universe."
Thelema does not equal anything of the sort. You're going to have to get past the soundbites if you want to succeed at this.
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To me there are two definitions, a general and a specific:
General: On who seeks to discover their true will and do it in conjunction with the universe.
Specific: One who does the above while following the system and methods set forth by The Prophet.
Sorryfor more "sound bytes" but it'sall I have energy for right now!
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@DavidH said
"To me there are two definitions, a general and a specific:
General: On who seeks to discover their true will and do it in conjunction with the universe.
Specific: One who does the above while following the system and methods set forth by The Prophet."
I wouldn't argue with the fence-sitting approach. That's also the most rational of the specific definitions I've seen, I think.
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If you do that which appeases others, then you are allowing them to use you for their WILL, thus in this situation they are the Thelemite and you are the slave.
It may be at times that you want to take the roll of a slave, however this is an illusion and you are more than willing and capable to back-bite when the situation turns to your favor. I do not mean whenever you can achieve whatever little pleasures cross your mind, but when it comes time to rise up from your obscurity as a peasant in disguise and take on the robe of a king in order to facilitate your TRUE WILL.
This also means that a thelemite does not pity and coddle others, let the chips fall where the may and let each man solve his problems for himself. Strike him "low and hard" and if he falls, then oh well that is his busisness, if he is strong and worthy he will find away to survive your blows.
A thelemite is concerned with his own business and leaves all others to concern themselves with their business.
For Thelema each individual's own inner genius or HGA is GOD of his own universe, is the highest on only justified authority, no one bows before any one else.
Thus, the HGA is master of all, he submits himself and his own desires, wants, needs, etc to the HGA, which is the TRUE WILL.
Thus if a thelemite engages in a wild sex orgy, it is in service of higher mystical principles, it is not a mere joy ride for personal pleasure, (as he will have transcended these bodily interests with yoga) but a scientific investigation into the nature of his own being, and his act is fully an act of devotion to NUIT.
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@Froclown said
"If you do that which appeases others, then you are allowing them to use you for their WILL, thus in this situation they are the Thelemite and you are the slave. "
This seems to me to be only half the story - as if only Chapter 2 existed in Liber L. It's the Hadit perspective - "myself singled out as an individual, a point-consciousness, independent and unique." It seems to me that it entirely excludes the Nuit perspective of Chapter 1, which is equally and concurrently true, the "part of everything, no separation among us, global consciousness, unity" etc.
Theory aside, from observation I have long thought that a telltale mark of someone who actually had the experience of "infinitesimal self differentiated and distinguished in its uniqueness" - the Hadit consciousness - was that they were concurrently and equally aware of the Nuit perspective. I don't think you can truly "get" one of these points of view in anything approaching its fullness without concurrently experiencing the opposite - can't get the Nuit experience without a simultaneous awareness of Hadit, nor get the Hadit experience without a simultaneous awareness of Nuit. Can't understand how we are all separate without concurrently understanding how there is no separation between us at all. The Infinite and the Infinitesimal are the context for each other.
It's possible that you and I would understand the word "appease" differently and, since you're the one who used it, ultimately I yield to you on what it means in your sentence. The point I want to make, though, is that there is rarely any real understanding of, or even clear instinct for, one's own True Will except in a context of the True Wills of others. Mindfulness of the stellar nature of each other, and of the necessary interconnection among all of us, is one of the main tools for knowing that one is on track with oneself.
You are describing a highly polarized "one is master, one is slave" reality which is, at best, an immature understanding of Thelema. A better understanding is that we all exist and move in continuous service to each other. There is no separation. We are, after all, a single being.
"A thelemite is concerned with his own business and leaves all others to concern themselves with their business."
But there are no "others."
"no one bows before any one else."
I bow before others all the time, in adoration and admiration. It seems a natural and spontaneous response to recognizing and discovering something about another's miracle. Does this make me not a Thelemite?
"Thus, the HGA is master of all, he submits himself and his own desires, wants, needs, etc to the HGA, which is the TRUE WILL."
You're really caught up in this master-slave thing, aren't you. As an expression of erotic tastes among consenting adults, that's one thing; as a model for society at large it kind of gets in the way in the New Aeon, don't you think?
"Thus if a thelemite engages in a wild sex orgy, it is in service of higher mystical principles, it is not a mere joy ride for personal pleasure"
That's what Thelema teaches as the best approach, agreed. But if you're making a statement of what, in fact, is the usual state of affairs, I'd have to question whether that is always the case. (PS - I almost missed the further dualistic either-or here. Those "higher mystical principles" aren't incompatible with a "joy ride for personal pleasure." Reread CCXX 1:13 for the method.)
"(as he will have transcended these bodily interests with yoga)"
No, not really. That would be very Klingsor of you.
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Froclown, yours is an interesting perspective. Mine differs.
Appeasing is different than offering assistance, which is what was mentioned. Offering assistance, if it is not rejected, is more likely to be an act of True Will, on the part of the servant, than eschewing his or her fellows.
Conflict is an illusion which occurs at the personality level, not at the level of True Will. Therefore, hiding as a slave until the situation allows a "back-bite" seems not at all to me to be evidence of True Will.
I agree that pity and coddle are best avoided. One can help move the chips into proper channels, however, without pitying and coddling those on whom the chips are falling. That man who fell by your side is you.
A Thelemite ought indeed concern him or herself with their own business. One wouldn't expect a Thelemite, for instance, to make long lists of Do's and Don'ts, but rather would allow each individual the freedom to determine their own ethic.
There is only one universe. Everyone bows before everyone else.
There is nothing to submit. The personality is a tool developed for the use of the HGA which is refined in order to be of fit use.
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Interestingly enough, I asked this very same question on another board a while back. Unfortunately, it did not generate the thoughtful discussion that I was hoping for, and that it has here--I'm so glad you posed it.
Here's the link, if anyone is interested--although I warn you, some of the depth (including my own) leaves much to be desired...
helema.tribe.net/thread/9f9afccd-a910-48cc-bb22-c11fef220d29
(Thank you, Jim, for heruraha.net, where thoughtful conversation takes place much more often than many other websites!)
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@Andie said
"(Thank you, Jim, for heruraha.net, where thoughtful conversation takes place much more often than many other websites!)"
You're welcome, Andie
Sometimes all it takes, though, is my setting off a firecracker then shutting up long enough for everyone to run out into the street and start talking to each other.I will, however, save you from my new Qabalistic understanding of "Yada yada," which came from looking through some old Hebrew roots and defunct plural structures over dinner...
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I don't think I am missing the Nuit perspective at all, as the individual (hadit) is condensed out of Nuit and thus the individual WILL is a node of the general WILL.
Thus to do one's own WILL means to get in touch with one's inner connection to Nuit and thus to fulfill one's personal niche in the cosmos, however if one allows any other authority to replace that inner light or to veer it off course from it's mark (a True WILL hit's it mark and is unswerving) then one fails in adhering to the LAW, and the status of being a Thelemite means to atleast accept the law and strive to fulfill it.
Not only does submitting one's WILL to others hold the potential for that WILL to be driven off course (either out of the other's stronger WILL to use you for His WILL or your weakness of WILL to pull away) but also one's own passions can lead one to veer off course. This means one may seek the easy way out, one may cheat on his diet, or give into addiction, and even be swayed by pity and compassion.
It is no secret that cuteness appeal to people and is the basis for survival for weaker beings such as kittens etc. So much as one would rebuke oneself for being so foolish to be deceived by malitous con artists, or his fear of the highwayman's threats, so do should he rebuke himself of his softness of heart when dealing with that which is cute or sickly in some way.
likewise his patriotism may lead him astray, as much as his piety or his loyalty to friends, or his pacts with lovers, etc.
All of these pacts are made and broken as to the utility of the WILL in use for the great work, and at it is upon the unbreakable Rock of the WILL that all other "authorities" derive their power.
There is no power on earth or in the heavens that does not first derive it's power over my from my WILLingness to accept it's power, and thus these powers must not be so arrogant as to think I am theirs, when in Truth they are mine.
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@Froclown said
"Thus to do one's own WILL means to get in touch with one's inner connection to Nuit and thus to fulfill one's personal niche in the cosmos, however if one allows any other authority to replace that inner light or to veer it off course from it's mark (a True WILL hit's it mark and is unswerving) then one fails in adhering to the LAW, and the status of being a Thelemite means to atleast accept the law and strive to fulfill it. "
But, using your definitions, the "inner light" is also manifest in the outer, right? Therefore, impressions that are (arbitrarily?) perceived as coming from outside of ourselves are as strong a part of the essential mix as impressions that are (arbitrarily?) perceived as coming from inside of ourselves.
"Not only does submitting one's WILL to others hold the potential for that WILL to be driven off course (either out of the other's stronger WILL to use you for His WILL or your weakness of WILL to pull away) but also one's own passions can lead one to veer off course. This means one may seek the easy way out, one may cheat on his diet, or give into addiction, and even be swayed by pity and compassion. "
You keep using power-struggle language, master-slave language, etc. Is this actually how you live your life? As a continuous struggle against dominating would-be masters? Life, understood, is really a great deal more serene and simple than that IMVHO.
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For the most part I don't use other people to achieve my ends, and certainly if it's feasible to act without them it is better, it's more efficient to lift a rock than use a lever or crane, if strength permits, however there are times when we must use others skills.
The way I live my life is to do things for myself if possible and to live and let live until such time as circumstance demands I impose my WILL over others.
However, it seem apparent to me that a great deal of people and institutions are there to use men up constantly, they do not allow people to live and let live. The seek to shape us, to mold us, to make us in the image of their slaves.
Which is all well and good, but I for one refuse to used for purposes that do not in some way contribute to my betterment, to my WILL.
Though I reserve that thelema says we can treat people harshly without fear that they are too noble for such treatment, it is not to imply that this is generally the best route to encourage others to aid us.
However, the Thelemite must be constantly on gaurd against becoming usurped by the group, of allowing the beat of his own drummer to be drowned out by this or that pied piper.
Being civil and treating other's kindly is not un-thelemic to be sure. However, allowing social expectations that one is supposed to be civil or kind when it is one's WILL to do other wise is not thelemic.
I am not saying people should act like rat -bastards as Satanist often does as it espouses it's brand of total egoism.
What I am saying is that a Thelemite isn ever fully of this world even while he may participate in it, and the beat of his WILL may be more or less in step with the marching band leader from time to time.
However, the Thelemite is one whose ears are plugged to the siren songs of the world and tunned perfectly on his own drummer.
So I guess I live my life not in a power-struggle so to speak, but constantly weary of sirens whose song may be sweet or bitter, but each seeking to bash my ship against unseen rocks.
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@Froclown said
"However, the Thelemite is one whose ears are plugged to the siren songs of the world and tunned perfectly on his own drummer."
Do you really think Thelema condones shutting out the outside world? Plugging the ears is a weak gesture. If you really have the power of Will you will not need to stoop to such a feeble measure.
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I do not mean to withdraw from the world.
What I am saying is that I do not admire the lemming as a source of inspiration. Just because everyone else it jumping off a bridge, or because the king says to jump off the bridge, or the law books say it is a felony not to jump, or the Catholic Pope declares that it is a sin not to jump, or even if it is proclaimed by the (GODS) themselves that men must jump from the bridge, Unless it is my WILL to jump I will not jump.
Just because I am not the property of man, state, church, or GOD, does not means that I do not interact with all of these as equals. They use me and I use them, when there is mutual benefit and they use my talents and skills according to the law of fitness, then I comply.
When they try to push me against my proper place and niche, to use me in a way that is not complementary to my WILL, then I resist them. And in some cases try to teach them the law of using things in they way they are fit to be used.
An ox may be a tool for man to use, however if you set the ox to work in a way that is not suitable to the nature of an ox, then you will have consequences. A dog can not be compelled to plow the fields and an ox can not be compelled to tree a raccoon.
In so far as I am part of the world, I associate myself with the earth, the trees, the fields of grass, the night sky, the orbits of planets, the gravitation of the moon, the seasons, the coolness of water, the taste of fresh berries and fruits, the warmth of the sun, the prickle of a static shock, even with the dynamic interrelation of the automobile the organic biology, and the chemical varieties of material substance.
What I do not integrate will with, are economics, religion, laws, politics, corporate bureaucracy, social cliques, consumerist lifestyle and other such abstractions that move away from the real actual material substance of the actual world and disguise the actual beneath a imposed layer of the artificial, of ephemeral projections of human fancy, at the expense of the natural world.
All those forces of the ephemeral world are lies, they are the siren songs I spoke of, which with opium like potency seek to lull us to sleep and join them in the dream.
It is my contention that a Thelemite is not caught up in that dream, that he takes his direction from, a deep secrete center of his material mind that is derived from the real solid earth not from the substance of dreams and abstraction. Thus the laws of men and the GODs of men have no sway over him. He has set his foundation on the HGA which is his one strong link to reality, the part of his mind/brain that does not consist of mere image and phenomenal phantasm. His link across the abyss from the world of mental imagery and psychic maps to that sanctuary which is clouded in dreams, but from which all dreams are derived.
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@Froclown said
"What I do not integrate will with, are economics, religion, laws, politics, corporate bureaucracy, social cliques, consumerist lifestyle and other such abstractions that move away from the real actual material substance of the actual world and disguise the actual beneath a imposed layer of the artificial, of ephemeral projections of human fancy, at the expense of the natural world. "
If you can see this distinction wouldn't you be better suited to integrate with society than someone who is under the illusion? Perhaps you see society as something to avoid, but I think that society is the 'self' of humankind. If a Thelemite infuses their own personality with their Will, then they may, by extension, also infuse society with its Will (i.e. the application of Yoga/Magick to humankind as a collective being). I guess I just don't see the point of existence if you elect not to integrate with society. A star without a galaxy?
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@jw said
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@Froclown said
"What I do not integrate will with, are economics, religion, laws, politics, corporate bureaucracy, social cliques, consumerist lifestyle and other such abstractions that move away from the real actual material substance of the actual world and disguise the actual beneath a imposed layer of the artificial, of ephemeral projections of human fancy, at the expense of the natural world. "If you can see this distinction wouldn't you be better suited to integrate with society than someone who is under the illusion? Perhaps you see society as something to avoid, but I think that society is the 'self' of humankind. If a Thelemite infuses their own personality with their Will, then they may, by extension, also infuse society with its Will (i.e. the application of Yoga/Magick to humankind as a collective being). I guess I just don't see the point of existence if you elect not to integrate with society. A star without a galaxy?
"I dont htink he is saying 'avoid society at all costs.' In fact, hes saying the same thing over and over and over and over: Avoid all forms of authority that is not your Will. And this doesnt mean move out of the city and into the forest, it means do not let the rules and restrictions of a soceiety, or a group, usurp the sovereignty of the Will.
I do not agree, though, with the list of things Froclown lists as evil 'ephemeral' apparitions trying to cover up reality. Your True Will and politics... your Will and social cliques, they can co-exist quite easily.
