Definition of a Thelemite
-
@Froclown said
"If you do that which appeases others, then you are allowing them to use you for their WILL, thus in this situation they are the Thelemite and you are the slave. "
This seems to me to be only half the story - as if only Chapter 2 existed in Liber L. It's the Hadit perspective - "myself singled out as an individual, a point-consciousness, independent and unique." It seems to me that it entirely excludes the Nuit perspective of Chapter 1, which is equally and concurrently true, the "part of everything, no separation among us, global consciousness, unity" etc.
Theory aside, from observation I have long thought that a telltale mark of someone who actually had the experience of "infinitesimal self differentiated and distinguished in its uniqueness" - the Hadit consciousness - was that they were concurrently and equally aware of the Nuit perspective. I don't think you can truly "get" one of these points of view in anything approaching its fullness without concurrently experiencing the opposite - can't get the Nuit experience without a simultaneous awareness of Hadit, nor get the Hadit experience without a simultaneous awareness of Nuit. Can't understand how we are all separate without concurrently understanding how there is no separation between us at all. The Infinite and the Infinitesimal are the context for each other.
It's possible that you and I would understand the word "appease" differently and, since you're the one who used it, ultimately I yield to you on what it means in your sentence. The point I want to make, though, is that there is rarely any real understanding of, or even clear instinct for, one's own True Will except in a context of the True Wills of others. Mindfulness of the stellar nature of each other, and of the necessary interconnection among all of us, is one of the main tools for knowing that one is on track with oneself.
You are describing a highly polarized "one is master, one is slave" reality which is, at best, an immature understanding of Thelema. A better understanding is that we all exist and move in continuous service to each other. There is no separation. We are, after all, a single being.
"A thelemite is concerned with his own business and leaves all others to concern themselves with their business."
But there are no "others."
"no one bows before any one else."
I bow before others all the time, in adoration and admiration. It seems a natural and spontaneous response to recognizing and discovering something about another's miracle. Does this make me not a Thelemite?
"Thus, the HGA is master of all, he submits himself and his own desires, wants, needs, etc to the HGA, which is the TRUE WILL."
You're really caught up in this master-slave thing, aren't you. As an expression of erotic tastes among consenting adults, that's one thing; as a model for society at large it kind of gets in the way in the New Aeon, don't you think?
"Thus if a thelemite engages in a wild sex orgy, it is in service of higher mystical principles, it is not a mere joy ride for personal pleasure"
That's what Thelema teaches as the best approach, agreed. But if you're making a statement of what, in fact, is the usual state of affairs, I'd have to question whether that is always the case. (PS - I almost missed the further dualistic either-or here. Those "higher mystical principles" aren't incompatible with a "joy ride for personal pleasure." Reread CCXX 1:13 for the method.)
"(as he will have transcended these bodily interests with yoga)"
No, not really. That would be very Klingsor of you.
-
Froclown, yours is an interesting perspective. Mine differs.
Appeasing is different than offering assistance, which is what was mentioned. Offering assistance, if it is not rejected, is more likely to be an act of True Will, on the part of the servant, than eschewing his or her fellows.
Conflict is an illusion which occurs at the personality level, not at the level of True Will. Therefore, hiding as a slave until the situation allows a "back-bite" seems not at all to me to be evidence of True Will.
I agree that pity and coddle are best avoided. One can help move the chips into proper channels, however, without pitying and coddling those on whom the chips are falling. That man who fell by your side is you.
A Thelemite ought indeed concern him or herself with their own business. One wouldn't expect a Thelemite, for instance, to make long lists of Do's and Don'ts, but rather would allow each individual the freedom to determine their own ethic.
There is only one universe. Everyone bows before everyone else.
There is nothing to submit. The personality is a tool developed for the use of the HGA which is refined in order to be of fit use.
-
Interestingly enough, I asked this very same question on another board a while back. Unfortunately, it did not generate the thoughtful discussion that I was hoping for, and that it has here--I'm so glad you posed it.
Here's the link, if anyone is interested--although I warn you, some of the depth (including my own) leaves much to be desired...
helema.tribe.net/thread/9f9afccd-a910-48cc-bb22-c11fef220d29
(Thank you, Jim, for heruraha.net, where thoughtful conversation takes place much more often than many other websites!)
-
@Andie said
"(Thank you, Jim, for heruraha.net, where thoughtful conversation takes place much more often than many other websites!)"
You're welcome, Andie
Sometimes all it takes, though, is my setting off a firecracker then shutting up long enough for everyone to run out into the street and start talking to each other.I will, however, save you from my new Qabalistic understanding of "Yada yada," which came from looking through some old Hebrew roots and defunct plural structures over dinner...
-
I don't think I am missing the Nuit perspective at all, as the individual (hadit) is condensed out of Nuit and thus the individual WILL is a node of the general WILL.
Thus to do one's own WILL means to get in touch with one's inner connection to Nuit and thus to fulfill one's personal niche in the cosmos, however if one allows any other authority to replace that inner light or to veer it off course from it's mark (a True WILL hit's it mark and is unswerving) then one fails in adhering to the LAW, and the status of being a Thelemite means to atleast accept the law and strive to fulfill it.
Not only does submitting one's WILL to others hold the potential for that WILL to be driven off course (either out of the other's stronger WILL to use you for His WILL or your weakness of WILL to pull away) but also one's own passions can lead one to veer off course. This means one may seek the easy way out, one may cheat on his diet, or give into addiction, and even be swayed by pity and compassion.
It is no secret that cuteness appeal to people and is the basis for survival for weaker beings such as kittens etc. So much as one would rebuke oneself for being so foolish to be deceived by malitous con artists, or his fear of the highwayman's threats, so do should he rebuke himself of his softness of heart when dealing with that which is cute or sickly in some way.
likewise his patriotism may lead him astray, as much as his piety or his loyalty to friends, or his pacts with lovers, etc.
All of these pacts are made and broken as to the utility of the WILL in use for the great work, and at it is upon the unbreakable Rock of the WILL that all other "authorities" derive their power.
There is no power on earth or in the heavens that does not first derive it's power over my from my WILLingness to accept it's power, and thus these powers must not be so arrogant as to think I am theirs, when in Truth they are mine.
-
@Froclown said
"Thus to do one's own WILL means to get in touch with one's inner connection to Nuit and thus to fulfill one's personal niche in the cosmos, however if one allows any other authority to replace that inner light or to veer it off course from it's mark (a True WILL hit's it mark and is unswerving) then one fails in adhering to the LAW, and the status of being a Thelemite means to atleast accept the law and strive to fulfill it. "
But, using your definitions, the "inner light" is also manifest in the outer, right? Therefore, impressions that are (arbitrarily?) perceived as coming from outside of ourselves are as strong a part of the essential mix as impressions that are (arbitrarily?) perceived as coming from inside of ourselves.
"Not only does submitting one's WILL to others hold the potential for that WILL to be driven off course (either out of the other's stronger WILL to use you for His WILL or your weakness of WILL to pull away) but also one's own passions can lead one to veer off course. This means one may seek the easy way out, one may cheat on his diet, or give into addiction, and even be swayed by pity and compassion. "
You keep using power-struggle language, master-slave language, etc. Is this actually how you live your life? As a continuous struggle against dominating would-be masters? Life, understood, is really a great deal more serene and simple than that IMVHO.
-
For the most part I don't use other people to achieve my ends, and certainly if it's feasible to act without them it is better, it's more efficient to lift a rock than use a lever or crane, if strength permits, however there are times when we must use others skills.
The way I live my life is to do things for myself if possible and to live and let live until such time as circumstance demands I impose my WILL over others.
However, it seem apparent to me that a great deal of people and institutions are there to use men up constantly, they do not allow people to live and let live. The seek to shape us, to mold us, to make us in the image of their slaves.
Which is all well and good, but I for one refuse to used for purposes that do not in some way contribute to my betterment, to my WILL.
Though I reserve that thelema says we can treat people harshly without fear that they are too noble for such treatment, it is not to imply that this is generally the best route to encourage others to aid us.
However, the Thelemite must be constantly on gaurd against becoming usurped by the group, of allowing the beat of his own drummer to be drowned out by this or that pied piper.
Being civil and treating other's kindly is not un-thelemic to be sure. However, allowing social expectations that one is supposed to be civil or kind when it is one's WILL to do other wise is not thelemic.
I am not saying people should act like rat -bastards as Satanist often does as it espouses it's brand of total egoism.
What I am saying is that a Thelemite isn ever fully of this world even while he may participate in it, and the beat of his WILL may be more or less in step with the marching band leader from time to time.
However, the Thelemite is one whose ears are plugged to the siren songs of the world and tunned perfectly on his own drummer.
So I guess I live my life not in a power-struggle so to speak, but constantly weary of sirens whose song may be sweet or bitter, but each seeking to bash my ship against unseen rocks.
-
@Froclown said
"However, the Thelemite is one whose ears are plugged to the siren songs of the world and tunned perfectly on his own drummer."
Do you really think Thelema condones shutting out the outside world? Plugging the ears is a weak gesture. If you really have the power of Will you will not need to stoop to such a feeble measure.
-
I do not mean to withdraw from the world.
What I am saying is that I do not admire the lemming as a source of inspiration. Just because everyone else it jumping off a bridge, or because the king says to jump off the bridge, or the law books say it is a felony not to jump, or the Catholic Pope declares that it is a sin not to jump, or even if it is proclaimed by the (GODS) themselves that men must jump from the bridge, Unless it is my WILL to jump I will not jump.
Just because I am not the property of man, state, church, or GOD, does not means that I do not interact with all of these as equals. They use me and I use them, when there is mutual benefit and they use my talents and skills according to the law of fitness, then I comply.
When they try to push me against my proper place and niche, to use me in a way that is not complementary to my WILL, then I resist them. And in some cases try to teach them the law of using things in they way they are fit to be used.
An ox may be a tool for man to use, however if you set the ox to work in a way that is not suitable to the nature of an ox, then you will have consequences. A dog can not be compelled to plow the fields and an ox can not be compelled to tree a raccoon.
In so far as I am part of the world, I associate myself with the earth, the trees, the fields of grass, the night sky, the orbits of planets, the gravitation of the moon, the seasons, the coolness of water, the taste of fresh berries and fruits, the warmth of the sun, the prickle of a static shock, even with the dynamic interrelation of the automobile the organic biology, and the chemical varieties of material substance.
What I do not integrate will with, are economics, religion, laws, politics, corporate bureaucracy, social cliques, consumerist lifestyle and other such abstractions that move away from the real actual material substance of the actual world and disguise the actual beneath a imposed layer of the artificial, of ephemeral projections of human fancy, at the expense of the natural world.
All those forces of the ephemeral world are lies, they are the siren songs I spoke of, which with opium like potency seek to lull us to sleep and join them in the dream.
It is my contention that a Thelemite is not caught up in that dream, that he takes his direction from, a deep secrete center of his material mind that is derived from the real solid earth not from the substance of dreams and abstraction. Thus the laws of men and the GODs of men have no sway over him. He has set his foundation on the HGA which is his one strong link to reality, the part of his mind/brain that does not consist of mere image and phenomenal phantasm. His link across the abyss from the world of mental imagery and psychic maps to that sanctuary which is clouded in dreams, but from which all dreams are derived.
-
@Froclown said
"What I do not integrate will with, are economics, religion, laws, politics, corporate bureaucracy, social cliques, consumerist lifestyle and other such abstractions that move away from the real actual material substance of the actual world and disguise the actual beneath a imposed layer of the artificial, of ephemeral projections of human fancy, at the expense of the natural world. "
If you can see this distinction wouldn't you be better suited to integrate with society than someone who is under the illusion? Perhaps you see society as something to avoid, but I think that society is the 'self' of humankind. If a Thelemite infuses their own personality with their Will, then they may, by extension, also infuse society with its Will (i.e. the application of Yoga/Magick to humankind as a collective being). I guess I just don't see the point of existence if you elect not to integrate with society. A star without a galaxy?
-
@jw said
"
@Froclown said
"What I do not integrate will with, are economics, religion, laws, politics, corporate bureaucracy, social cliques, consumerist lifestyle and other such abstractions that move away from the real actual material substance of the actual world and disguise the actual beneath a imposed layer of the artificial, of ephemeral projections of human fancy, at the expense of the natural world. "If you can see this distinction wouldn't you be better suited to integrate with society than someone who is under the illusion? Perhaps you see society as something to avoid, but I think that society is the 'self' of humankind. If a Thelemite infuses their own personality with their Will, then they may, by extension, also infuse society with its Will (i.e. the application of Yoga/Magick to humankind as a collective being). I guess I just don't see the point of existence if you elect not to integrate with society. A star without a galaxy?
"I dont htink he is saying 'avoid society at all costs.' In fact, hes saying the same thing over and over and over and over: Avoid all forms of authority that is not your Will. And this doesnt mean move out of the city and into the forest, it means do not let the rules and restrictions of a soceiety, or a group, usurp the sovereignty of the Will.
I do not agree, though, with the list of things Froclown lists as evil 'ephemeral' apparitions trying to cover up reality. Your True Will and politics... your Will and social cliques, they can co-exist quite easily.
-
Society should not be something that I have to integrate into, as if society is this think that I am alien to and must become a part of.
Society proper should be the vector sum of individual WILLs. It should emerge from the acts of individuals, rather than the individual act being shaped by the pre-existing notion of a social order.
Existence precedes essence as Sartre says.
If we look at say an ant colony, there is no political system, each ant does not strive to fit in with the colony, each is not assigned a task by the queen, nor are there anything like elections or churches which dictate policies and moral injunctions to the ants.
The way an ant colony works is that each individual ant has a unique nature and biology. It just so happens that when each ant does what that sort of ant does, all the different classes of ants with similar biological structures and inclinations perform different functions which complement each other in such a way as to result in the ant society.
An ant colony is far from simple, it has a complex dynamic interaction between environmental factors, class system, and internal affairs that reflects the cycles of nature, the organism as a whole, and is even inherent in the free market.
Thus, the emergence of complex systems is reliant upon the absolute autonomy of the individual WILL to act according to it's own unique properties, biology, inclination, education, etc.
If the queen started making demands over the worker ants, then the whole colony would become inefficient and may die out.
Just as when controls are used to regulate the free market leading to catastrophe.
A Thelemite is one who is consciously in touch which his natural properties and strives to apply himself according to his natural function, and secondly looks to reduce instances where this law of fitness is not being adequately respected.
For example the libertarian economics is most compatible with Thelema, and as a Thelemite I promote libertarianism.
Others who are not Thelemites may be performing their natural functions, they may be in perfect adherence to "DO what thou WILT" yet not be consciously aware of the law, nor actively engaged in promoting it.
-
A thelemite is an Austrailian food spread that tastes bad, or is a Vegemite a Vegan Thelemite? Boy, this mixes me up.
A Thelemite IS!
The funny thing is that there is no way to get an answer to this. Look at a very structured, strict, dogmatic religion like Catholicism. Even if you ask 100 catholics what does it means to be a Catholic, you will get 100 different answers. So just think how impossible it is with something so flexible and non-dogmatic as thelema.
Ah......I have the answer......Thelema is......
-
@Froclown said
"Others who are not Thelemites may be performing their natural functions, they may be in perfect adherence to "DO what thou WILT" yet not be consciously aware of the law, nor actively engaged in promoting it."
My questions are: Do you have to know about the BotL in order for the Will you're doing to be called "Will"? Do you have to know about Crowley to be called a Thelemite?
-
Do you have to know about Jesus to be a Christian?
Just because you treat your friends and enemies as brothers and never break the ten commandments, if you don't know about Jesus or those commandments, you are not a Christian.
Do be a Thelemite means to actively and consciously follow the ideals of Thelema, and to promote those ideals to others.
Those ideals are that individual WILL liberated from collectivism, creates the most natural and free flowing relations between individuals. That an imposed regulation on conduct no matter how good intentioned stifles individual expression and results in an inefficient system, full of conflicts and undesired situations.
-
@Froclown said
"Do be a Thelemite means to actively and consciously follow the ideals of Thelema, and to promote those ideals to others."
Thank you for your definition - it's at least one definition, and not the only one.
And the answer to Andie's questions, I think, must be: It depends on the definition.
It is not hard for me to conceive of or accept a definition of "Thelemite" that requires no knowledge of The Book of the Law or any of its contents. - I'm not stuck on that definition, either (and, as I said at the top, defining this label is ultra-low priority for me anyway). I'm just saying that I'm not convinced your definition has any more merit than one that requires to conscious familiarity at all.
I think part of this boils down to that other recurring question, "Is Thelema a religion?" If the answer is "yes," then your definition makes the most sense. To be a Christian involves consciously affirming Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. To be a Muslin requires open affirmation that there is one God and that Mohammed is His prophet. - But if we are not regarding Thelema as a religion per se then using religions as the basis of comparison may not be the most reasonable approach.
"Those ideals are that individual WILL liberated from collectivism,"
I dispute this fierecely! Ferociously! Individual Will is existing continously in the context of collectivism. Will is inseparably intertwined with Love in the philosophy of Thelema, and, at root, love is union. The scope of isolation you articulated is dualism at its worst and is technical insanity.
"That an imposed regulation on conduct no matter how good intentioned stifles individual expression and results in an inefficient system, full of conflicts and undesired situations."
Whether or not this is part of the definition of Thelema, it is quite at odds with many of the writings of Aleister Crowley. (I understand fully that those two might not always be the same thing.) Crowley wrote extensively about new codes of social conduct, social structuralization, new laws and governmental forms etc. which he saw as specific moving forces in the providing an improved context for Thelema's growth. Crowley wasn't an anarchist, he was a social reformer, and he stood frequently for "imposed regulation on conduct" which he seemed to think was essential for the masses in a free Thelemic culture.
-
Sure imposed regulations for those who are not yet in touch with the HGA, once one achieves knowledge and conversations one is instructed to "get out" of the system.
Thelema has two classes in it, those who get it and those who don't get it yet.
There is a system in place to impose rules over those who do not get it, until they do get it.
Those rules however are slowly taken away with each initiation, and each set of rules and ideals is such that it leads one to epiphanies that transcend those rules.
Thus, a system like the A.'. A.'. works to decondition the individual, to educate him as a king, where as the system of the OTO works more to provide a context for the slaves who serve, to serve the kings, as is the WILL of the slave. They are free to serve or not serve and the higher degrees do use the lower degrees against their WILL for ends that benefit only the elite few at the expense of the many. (Or even worse benefit no individual entities only the state egregore).
Ultimately however even the OTO does not impose forced rules it is working with the needs of the Slaves to provide them with a place to fit in, rather than seeking to impose by force or trickery any sort of collective WILL over them.
I do not see where you get the notion that love is the law, means that individuals would be wise to sacrifice their own WILL to an abstract collectivism, such that the abstraction is propagated while every individual is impoverished.
How does this differ from Christianity where the individual WILL is sacrificed to the WILL of "GOD". Or Totalitarian Fascism where the individual WILL is sacrificed to the State.
Thelema suggests a meritocracy to be sure, and even hints at an aristocracy, however it also shows that these social roles will be chosen freely by the individual based on his own innate properties. That higher ranks require greater risk will keep the lower sort of man from coveting them.
I'd been thinking about how to work in a vegemite joke in some thread or other recently.