Views on Ceremonial Magick
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Though I do not doubt what you say, I do not use ceremonial magick in such a fashion. I see it as a means of aligning myself with my True Will.
Once aligned, would there be a point? Balanced, what is needed comes to you.
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I am not in ToT or in the OTO...however, I am in another Thelemic order.
I do not believe you need to practice magick in order to be a Thelemite. I do believe it can support the finding and implementation of one's True Will, when used appropriately.
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@Kingsolomon said
"is the majority of people on her a member of either the college of thelema, or the temple of thelema or a oto member?"
Not a majority, no. There are, however, many C.O.T. students and T.'.O.'.T.'. iniitiates here. I don't know what percentage of the people here are O.T.O. members.
"The temple of thelema and the college of thelema in my opinion is the best resource for instruction on how to be a thelemite."
Thanks. We had a great model in Soror Meral and do our best to live up to her standard.
"so Jim, youre saying that magick only works and is thy will is only granted if the universe thinks I should recieve it?"
I'm saying nothing in the universe exists outside of the laws of that universe. This includes, BTW, your True Will - it's part of the fabric of the universe.
"In other words, if I do a ceremonial working for prosperity with my goals, It may not work because it's up to the Universe if I should be granted my request in magick?"
It may not work because of psychological limitations within you and/or because the fictional human "will" (that is, personality's choice) may be at odds with your True Will. That is, you are divided against yourself.
"Maybe I am wrong about everything if thats the case"
Or, possibly, it's a matter of semantics - different language. Or possibly just some fine tuning.
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@Kingsolomon said
"i thought magick was about conforming to our own will becoming like god
You can do anything you want with magick.. ANYTHING..
am I right?"
Well... in theory, yes.
In practice, there is an interesting piece left out: The deeper you move into the Work, the more your choices reflect your True Will rather than the (subject to much distortion) personality "wants." In my experience, the more deeply you are in alignment with your True Will, the less likely your personality will make choices that are at odds with it.
You have infinite power to follow the path of True Will and to have everything necessary for that - the universe (i.e., Nuit) provides everything needed. But you don't necessarily have any power at all to do anything at odds with your True Will.
Crowley pointed out that by the time he became a Magus 9=2 A.'.A.'., there was almost nothing at all that he could do anymore except the ONE THING that was his to do - this aside from the fact that, years earlier as a G.D. 6=5 (roughly equivalent to A.'.A.'. 2=9 or a little higher) he could do miracles almost on demand. The difference is that, as the whole of his manifest being became more tightly aligned with the central pulse or stream of his being, there was no power "leaking" into other things.
It is written that the A.'.A.'. Adeptus Major 6=5 "Obtains a general mastery of practical Magick...." The 6=5, who as a 5=6 is already in the embrace of the Knowledge & Conversation of the HGA, has become a 6=5 in part by aligning himself with increasing intimacy to the voice of that Angel. This is described in One Star in Sight as follows: "[H]e must keep silence, while he nails his body to the tree of his creative will, in the shape of that Will, leaving his head and arms to form the symbol of Light, as if to make oath that **his every thought, word and deed should express the Light derived from the God with which he has identified his life, his love and his liberty **- symbolised by his heart, his phallus, and his legs" [emphasis added].
The 6=5, therefore, has all power - the whole force of the universe! - standing behind his or her True Will. The Adept progressively makes choices that are more fully aligned with True Will, and these choices are powerful!
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Jim, I would like to personally talk to you about the temple of thelema
would you mind if i would converse with you on the email?
I think we've talked before and i think you were the one who sent me an application. but i forgot..
but I would like to talk to you privately. I have a question and concern.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
@Uni_Verse said
"Though I do not doubt what you say, I do not use ceremonial magick in such a fashion. I see it as a means of aligning myself with my True Will.
Once aligned, would there be a point? Balanced, what is needed comes to you."
This is how I've always seen it as well. The immediate goal of the CM is arbitrary. Pulling it off is a test of ingenuity, dedication, concentration and a host of other acheivements that further The Work. If you really need something, it is provided. Otherwise, the intended rewards of CM are simply proof of progress. It's like doing your math homework... no one at NASA is waiting around for you to solve those problems. The answers are in the back of the book for goodness sake. It's about learning the math. (Isn't there something about "BECAUSE" in here that we were warned about?)
Love is the law, love under will.
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some of you sound like Republican Ceremonial Magicians.
The funny thing is in real life, I am a republican.
it is true, eventually you will balance out yourself in ceremonial magick..
But yo can REQUEST ANYTHING AND ANYTHING WILL HAPPEN with ceremonial magick..
First you must do your tarot and ask if I use ceremonial magick to do .... become a mayor, what will be the course of action..
the tarot will answer if it's wise to use magick or not. or it will tell you the outcome if you use CM.
yes.. you can do anything.. I've seen it.. that actually is black magick.
but. some of us use magick for good or evil.
I for one only use it to balance myself.
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i highly agree with the original post here by the original poster (every other post after that by him i may argue a bit with)
however
jims reply to that post is exactly why I joined the ToT.
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I dont know, The oto tells me you can do anything with magick, they always refer me to the story of Jack Parsons when L. Ron Hubbard ran off with jack's wife and Jack's money. He summoned Bartzabel and made him come back.
Aleister Crowley sent a wave of evil to samuel mathers because samuel was jealous of aleister and tried to curse aleister.
Other stories I've heard of true magick seem like these are not aligned with ones true will, that kinds distracts the object of the true will using ceremonial magick, it looks to me thats all paybacks.
why is there stories of people with fame prestige riches and glory, (King Solomon using Goetia.) that doesnt seem like a valid example of ones true will.
This is what i mean by magick will grant you anything possible.
can someone comment on that
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@Kingsolomon said
"I dont know, The oto tells me you can do anything with magick, they always refer me to the story of Jack Parsons when L. Ron Hubbard ran off with jack's wife and Jack's money. He summoned Bartzabel and made him come back."
Uh, the facts are a bit screwed up in that telling of the story. Not to doubt magical efficacy, but you do have a number of facts wrong in those two sentences.
"Other stories I've heard of true magick seem like these are not aligned with ones true will, that kinds distracts the object of the true will using ceremonial magick, it looks to me thats all paybacks."
It helps to be familiar with stories like the Monkey's Paw and Aladdin before one goes around rubbing lamps and making wishes, eh?
"why is there stories of people with fame prestige riches and glory, (King Solomon using Goetia.) that doesnt seem like a valid example of ones true will."
For the record, King Solomon likely had nothing to do with The Goetia at all, since it was surely written a millennium or more after he lived. That it is called "The Lesser Key of Solomon" just means that someone named it that. - But, that aside, one can't automatically assume that what might be a distraction for oneself would be a distraction for another. Presitge, riches, and glory seem quite suitable attributes for the task of being a great king, and it seems that Solomon's True Will included being a great king for his people.
"This is what i mean by magick will grant you anything possible."
Yes. The issue isn't so much how to get what you ask for, as to know what to ask for.
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93,
@Kingsolomon said
"I dont know, The oto tells me you can do anything with magick, "
Not a criticism, just an observation:
As someone who's been hanging around magical orders for a while, let me give you quick suggestion to avoid confusion in the future. Please recognize that "the O.T.O." isn't telling you that. (At least, not so simplistically). Some people you know who happen to be in the O.T.O. are perhaps telling you that. Don't confuse what some members say (even high degree members) with organizational policy or doctrine, no matter what Order you belong to.
Note that I am not commenting at all on what was said, just the general principle of how to interpret certain kinds of comments.
93 93/93
David
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Right, youre right, the oto is not telling me this, but yes the members are.
what was the true story of L. Ron Hubbard and Jack Parsons, is there a website where I can view this, I like the work of Parsons. I never understood the Moonchild and the Rosemarys baby type deal. haha.
but yes, I do realize magick is not what the movies portray it to be. essentially yes, it's all bells and whistles. and no, the two do not contradict themselves. i realize this.
and I do realize on King Solomon using Goetia to get riches and to become king. because youre right Jim, he didnt, it was probably the God himself who gave him the riches because again, he asked for wisdom to lead his people not riches and power. God was impressed so he gave him everything. I tend to believe that christian view instead.
to even get deeper, We dont even know God's will, in some ways, we have to know our true will to match God's essentially anyway.
The Temple Of Thelema can help me. I'm sure.. I'm kind of excited about the chance of joining, to find my true will, and learn CM to produce results based on true will, And I can help individuals along the way. Thelema shouldnt be the only practice one should master, theres other methods of Disciplines one should master.
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@Kingsolomon said
"to even get deeper, We dont even know God's will, in some ways, we have to know our true will to match God's essentially anyway. "
There really isn't any difference between "our True Will"and what others call "the Will of God."
For example, Islam, meaning "surrender," is ultimately about joyful surrender to the Will of God. There isn't any difference except in the definition of terms and the psychological effect those definitions have on us betwen that and the injunction to know and do your True Will.
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Well can everyone answer this..
The ultimate question that came to my mind while I was at work today..
since i'm new to the forum and new to Thelema..
About true will..
who decides what are true will is anyway? Is it us or is it the universe (Nuit)?
thats the question that i seek deep within me.
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@Kingsolomon said
"who decides what are true will is anyway? Is it us or is it the universe (Nuit)?"
Is there a difference?
It's not your personality - that is, it's not anything that you likely are used to calling "myself" at this point in time.
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kingsolomon In regards to Parsons download the free ebook called
The Key of the Abyss
by Anthony Testa
Very good thread and excellent anwsers from Jim.. Mastering magic is easy, Mastering the Ego is another story and thats where the great work comes into play. IMO this whole thread can be summed up with Jims Response.
"Yes. The issue isn't so much how to get what you ask for, as to know what to ask for."
ponder that friends it is a little trade secret.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
@Kingsolomon said
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It seems to me that Thelemites, and individuals who are not thelemites but are associated with it some kind of way have WAY TOO many opinions about Ceremonial magick in it's essence.Heres the truth.. when you do enochian workings, or goetic workings, or alchemy..
Magick is an infinite possibility..
"i don't quite know how to type a grunt of utter incredulity... how can there be "too many" opinions about "infinite possibilities?"
(puts on her best SNL hercules impression)
"this infinity is too large! i could contemplate a smaller one."
"you can do anything you want with Ceremonial Magick, if youre good and proficient. anything.
"actually, all you can do is your will.
"I despise people who have never done magick"
everybody does magick.
"Although this guy i'm talking about used magick to get what he wanted, he interrupted the will of others to conform to his will..
"um, no he didn't, probably. if he was acting in harmony with his will, he found what was correct for him to find.
"trust me"
NO!
heck, even the beast doesn't ask us to "trust him." quote the opposite, in fact."and I'm in the position to further my studies with thelema, I want to secretly be the best thelemite I can be, and perhaps secretly a god.
and secretly I want be the best magician better than crowley..
i guess it aint a secret no more, my secrets out now.. big goals.. such little time..
""For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect."
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I know yall feel me on the words being typed out of my mouth."no, i really Don't though. while i agree that there's a lot of crap for sale out there, that has absolutely nothing to do with serious magcians and/or thelemites. there are plenty of people willing to teach other people, serious or no. "He must teach." in my lineage of A.'.A.'., us old heads who happen to know each other talk all the time about how the up and coming students are going to be totally kicking our asses in a few years - and that's a Good Thing!
"so Jim, youre saying that magick only works and is thy will is only granted if the universe thinks I should recieve it?
"i know you're asking jim, but i can't resist. magick is just a science that hasn't been completely figured out yet. just as there are laws of physics, there are laws of magick. i don't know every single one of them and i've never met anybody who does, but for now the best rule of thumb to go by is "thou hast no right but to do thy will. "
never steered me wrong!
"You can do anything you want with magick.. ANYTHING..
am I right?"
nope! you can only do your will. sure, you might manage to go off course and collide with stuff - you might even become a black brother, but then again, a black brother Doesn't Do - that's kind of the whole point
"why is there stories of people with fame prestige riches and glory, (King Solomon using Goetia.) that doesnt seem like a valid example of ones true will.
"what's wrong with riches and glory? this ain't the aeon of osiris, don'tcha know
"I, 51. There are four gates to one palace; the floor of that palace is of silver and gold; lapis lazuli & jasper are there; and all rare scents; jasmine & rose, and the emblems of death. Let him enter in turn or at once the four gates; let him stand on the floor of the palace. Will he not sink? Amn. Ho! warrior, if thy servant sink? But there are means and means. Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me."
"I, 61. But to love me is better than all things: if under the night stars in the desert thou presently burnest mine incense before me, invoking me with a pure heart, and the Serpent flame therein, thou shalt come a little to lie in my bosom. For one kiss wilt thou then be willing to give all; but whoso gives one particle of dust shall lose all in that hour. Ye shall gather goods and store of women and spices; ye shall wear rich jewels; ye shall exceed the nations of the earth in spendour & pride; but always in the love of me, and so shall ye come to my joy. I charge you earnestly to come before me in a single robe, and covered with a rich headdress. I love you! I yearn to you! Pale or purple, veiled or voluptuous, I who am all pleasure and purple, and drunkenness of the innermost sense, desire you. Put on the wings, and arouse the coiled splendour within you: come unto me! "
"II, 24. Behold! these be grave mysteries; for there are also of my friends who be hermits. Now think not to find them in the forest or on the mountain; but in beds of purple, caressed by magnificent beasts of women with large limbs, and fire and light in their eyes, and masses of flaming hair about them; there shall ye find them. Ye shall see them at rule, at victorious armies, at all the joy; and there shall be in them a joy a million times greater than this. Beware lest any force another, King against King! Love one another with burning hearts; on the low men trample in the fierce lust of your pride, in the day of your wrath."
"III, 44. But let her raise herself in pride! Let her follow me in my way! Let her work the work of wickedness! Let her kill her heart! Let her be loud and adulterous! Let her be covered with jewels, and rich garments, and let her be shameless before all men!"
@Uni_Verse said
"Though I do not doubt what you say, I do not use ceremonial magick in such a fashion. I see it as a means of aligning myself with my True Will."
well i sure as heck do. i'm doing Some type of magick with every willed act - why not throw ceremonialism in?
i really feel that the whole "don't use magick for anything except theurgy" thing, if that's indeed what you're talking about, is a relic of the old aeon. "fear not to undergo the curses" - don't be afraid of using your powers! that's what they're for!
Love is the law, love under will
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@luxinhominefactum said
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well i sure as heck do. i'm doing Some type of magick with every willed act - why not throw ceremonialism in?i really feel that the whole "don't use magick for anything except theurgy" thing, if that's indeed what you're talking about, is a relic of the old aeon. "fear not to undergo the curses" - don't be afraid of using your powers! that's what they're for!
"There is nothing wrong with using your powers in such a way. Perhaps I am still clinging to some old aeon ideas, and they need some more time to evolve within me
For the time being...
Give me a heap of straw in a hut and Nuit naked! -
@Uni_Verse said
"
There is nothing wrong with using your powers in such a way. Perhaps I am still clinging to some old aeon ideas, and they need some more time to evolve within me
For the time being...
Give me a heap of straw in a hut and Nuit naked!"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
hah as always, it's just my own perspective
as for straw and nuit, trust me - i'd be the Last to say you nay
Love is the law, love under will
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As someone new to this forum, I'm going through threads with interesting titles, please ignore me if you feel I'm resurrecting old news to no good end.
"Views on CM" seemed interesting to me; I have reorganized the various points in the original post to respond thematically:
@Kingsolomon said
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There will be some who will say, I dont know what i'm talking about..."Honestly man (or woman or whatever), I wouldn't say you don't know what you're talking about, but personally I had a hard time figuring out what you were talking about!
I'm guessing English is a second language for you, and if so, I applaud you for tackling such complex subjects in another language! Maybe you could make an attempt to organize your thoughts a bit more by grouping ideas together as I have done with your post? Or not - as you Will."
It seems to me that Thelemites, and individuals who are not thelemites but are associated with it some kind of way have WAY TOO many opinions about Ceremonial magick in it's essence."So... you want to cure the world of too many opinions by creating one more? That probably won't work.
But really, why do you care? What difference does it make to you what or how many opinions anyone else has? (I'm not suggesting you shouldn't care, I'm just curious to know why you do, what impact do you feel it has on you? Are their opinions interfering in your enjoyment or effectiveness in some way?)"
If someone is proficient in magick and wants a better job, magick will help him get a good job better than he dreamed of or get the job exactly as he wanted it. no if's and's and but'sYou can do anything you want with Ceremonial Magick, if youre good and proficient. anything."
Ok, um... do I need to point out that it's a bit silly to end a passage with "no if's and's or but's" that you started with "If..."?
Not that I'm above being silly. More importantly, this statement confuses me as it seems to "beg the question" in that it already assumes a definition of magick as "performing actions which can lead to results like getting a better job", and then leads to the assertion that someone can get a better job if they are good at magick. So I have to guess based on what you have said that what was originally at issue for these pessimists you speak of is whether "getting a better job" is really a good defining example of a possible result of magick. And if someone already agrees with you on that point, they wouldn't need to be told that someone can use magick to get a better job. But if they do not already agree, then this statement doesn't move them any closer to agreement - they can agree to it as trivially or mathematically true, and still they may not agree that it validly describes their experience. You may have articulated your disagreement, although it might not have "built a bridge" from their experience to yours, so they can understand your point of view.
Does that make sense?
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nothing wrong with making anything happen with magick.. instead of theoretically discussing nonsense.I know everyone knows what i'm saying, and it's nothing new, but i'm just upset of the people that i've come across in my new found study, and they are so pessimistic about magick..
there, I had to get that off my chest.. I just see too many statements about magick and not enough practice and result. I despise people who have never done magick and if they did, they were not good at it, and say, well magick is this and magick is that..
"It's in these passages that I think I'm perceiving the meat of what you wanted to express - you're fed up with everyone talking and not doing, especially people who you feel have not done enough practice, but nonetheless want to say that some things won't work, or that no one can expect certain results. And you feel they're "full of b.s.", because they have never tried, so how can they know what is possible for someone else.
Is that a fair restatement of what's bugging you about these people's attitudes?
If so, I think most of us have been in your place at one time or another. Especially those of us who spend time discussing magick on the internet.
My question to someone in this position would be - how will you help these people learn to stop being stuck in their negative thoughts and start moving into a more active practice? How will you show them yourself that magick works, and gets results that they never dreamed it could?
Indeed, how can you use magick to help enlighten them?