Treating Spirits with respect.
-
In all honesty, it really does not matter to me whether or not we carry on afterwards.
"
Twirling round with this familiar parable
Spinning weaving round each new experience
Recognize this as a holy gift and celebrate the chance
To Be
Alive and Breathing
" -
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
"froclown" wrote:
"Genetically he will always be a large person, he can not change that anymore than he can change his gender, if he takes pills and cuts off his junk, he only becomes a freak, not actually a woman.
Magick is not the man thinks he is a woman so he uses magick to mutilate himself, rather Magick works by the man realizing he is a man and accepting that, and casting all delusions to the contrary out of his mind, and learning to act like a man."
your transphobia is duly noted.
i'll remember that you think i'm a "freak" in all further interactions, and treat you and your opinions with that in mind.
i didn't realize this kind of behavior was tolerated here. i'll keep That in mind, too.
Love is the law, love under will
-
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
i quote from crowley's New Comment
"The Beast refuses therefore to assent to any argument as to the
propriety of any fashion of formulating the soul in symbols of sex. A
canon is no less deadly in love than in art or literature; its
acceptance stifles style, and its enforcement extinguishes sincerity.
It is better for a person of heterosexual nature to suffer every
possible calamity as the indirect environment-evoked result of his
doing his true will in that respect than to enjoy health, wealth and
happiness by means either of suppressing sex altogether, or
debauching it to the service of Sodom or Gomorrah.Equally it is better for the androgyne, the urning, or their feminine
counterparts to endure blackmailers private and public, the terrors
of police persecution, the disgust, contempt and loathing of the
vulgar, and the self-torture of suspecting the peculiarity to be a
symptom of a degenerate nature, than to wrong the soul by
damning it to the hell of abstinence, or by defiling it with the
abhorred embraces of antipathetic arms."for those of you who aren't aware, "urning" is an outdated term for a transgendered person.
Love is the law, love under will
-
I am not saying to do or not do anything.
You will learn by the consequences.
The point is that a thing is what it is, and its a lot easier to change tho mind than to fight against the nature of things.
If you insist on pissing into the wind or paddling your canoe up stream, then by all means do. But do not suppose that this is the following of the TAO.
We learn by consequences of failures as much as by success. I have no interest in persecuting the transgendered, I see no reason to persecute people for their actions, natural consequences are capable of that.
I simple find that perhaps what leads one to such an act is a grass in alyas greener situation, where if one is not content with ones natural gender, one may find that becoming the other is not in reality any more satisfying than ones original state.
That perhaps the problem is one of perspective, rather than physical reality. Magick can grant the powers to change the world, so they say, but the true lesson of these powers is that contentment comes from within, from higher practices that disavow the changing ones circumstance and dedicate one to inner spiritual changes of perspective.
It is the failure to find happiness in powers and abilities, that leads one to the spiritual life. Of just accepting things as they are, not seeking to become something or someone else. It is this self denial, that is the root of suffering.
A poor farmer who desires to be a rich playboy is in the same situation. If he wins the lottery, he does not become a rich man, he becomes a freak, a fish out of water, and may very well find he is just as unhappy. He may dream of his simple days on the farm.
Do what thou Wilt = Be what you are.
Accept who and what you are, your natural place in the world and do that with 100% of of your being. Do not allow doubt or interest in other things enter your mind. When you feel the grass is greener, then yau put less into what you are, your own TRUE WILL.
A WILL divided can not stand or "be that state of manyhood...ect"
-
Luxinhominefactum, 93,
"i didn't realize this kind of behavior was tolerated here. i'll keep That in mind, too. "
I think you may be confusing boredom with tolerance. I just skim Froclown's posts, and I believe most other people do, too. He has made the same main point scores of times now, and since like most people here I find it doesn't fit my own experience of things, I only glance at his .... lengthy posts once in a while.
Froclown, what I did find bizarre was your reference to male genitalia as "junk":
"if he takes pills and cuts off his junk"
.I've come across hundreds of different terms men or women have used for a penis and testicles, but never 'junk'. To my mind, since sexual identity is one of our most basic and vital aspects of selfhood, this says something about how you see your own worth, and perhaps demonstrates why you're so rigidly judgemental towards other people. Nobody would - could - opt for a sex-change without going through a wrenching reappraisal of core identity.
It's odd that you keep telling people to examine their own values and assumptions, then you dump on someone who has gone through such a process in an extremely intense and radical way.
I don't buy a word of your vacuous blethering about how knowing the True Will requires someone else not to go through with what presented itself as a major but clearly necessary change. I don't understand what it would involve, and very obviously neither do you, but that doesn't call for a hyper-critical appraisal.
Quite the opposite, at least for a sincere Thelemite.
93 93/93,
EM
-
um its a common slang term, Would it be better if I had said nads?
Also, I did not even get into the holistic effects of things, the fact that gender is a social role, not directly related to physical genitalia.
That if we straightened out the social situation concerning gender roles, it may be that people do not come to be discontent with their physical genitalia.
The point here is that spirits have particular nature, and should be used far that nature, not compelled to act in ways they are not fitted for.
Likewise we are the Spirits of the material plane, and as such our physical bodies and minds are of a specific nature, because we are set to particular tasks. To compel the physical body to perform in ways it in not designed for, runs us into problems.
All things can be used by the WILL including the physical body. but if one WILL is to obtain a chlorate of gold, one must mix the proper elements, not just any two things. A beating a stick against a fire hydrant will not yield the result, no matter how many incantations we mutter to convince us it will work, the damn red thing is does not turn yellow.
-
93,
"Likewise we are the Spirits of the material plane, and as such our physical bodies and minds are of a specific nature, because we are set to particular tasks. To compel the physical body to perform in ways it in not designed for, runs us into problems. "
Which, I assume, is exactly why LIHF chose gender reassignment. The spirit itself, to use your odd term (since you normally deny such non-corporeal things exist) has to make that call, not an outsider.
A human body+psyche is not comparable to a fire hydrant, other than both often attract dogs, if for widely differing reasons. An organic system is malleable, and by nature undergoes constant transformation. Each aspirant in the Mysteries has to re-calibrate their sexuality, and for some that's more of a crisis than for others. Sure, sexuality has a social aspect but it also derives from someone's inner identity far more.
Not long ago, you were telling us how feckless and messed-up most women are, other than a small minority who met your own Thelemic criteria. Now you find someone on this list who was physically male who has opted to become female. A threat! Treachery! So you attacked.
I still think your choice of "junk" is significant. It's that darned junk that draws us to them thar wimmin in the first place.
93 93/93,
EM
-
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
well said, edward. i noticed the "junk" thing, too
"common slang" is just that - common. last time i checked, thelemites were Royal
i'll have more to say tomorrow
Love is the law, love under will
-
While I don't agree with a lot of what Froclown says, I don't see the problem with the usage of that slang word. Honestly, it's no worse than any other word out there besides using the the proper words of "penis" and "phallus".
@lux said
""common slang" is just that - common. last time i checked, thelemites were Royal"
Eh, I see that as horseshit. Royal or not, a Thelemite moving with his/her True Will speaks as they are to, not how someone else dictates a Royal should.
-
Kuniggety, 93,
I'm not saying it's a 'bad word' just that, as with any of our words, it reveals an underlying attitude. In this case, I think it's anxiety masked with scorn. Anxiety's fine, scorn hurts, because it's a means of boxing someone else in - that is, restricting them, or attempting to restrict them, to what we feel is a 'safer' condition.
93 93/93,
EM
-
:shifts halo to cover up horns:Pardon me while I play a little devils advocate.
@froclown said
"
...the true lesson of these powers is that contentment comes from within, from higher practices that disavow the changing ones circumstance and dedicate one to inner spiritual changes of perspective.
"That is something I whole heartedly agree with. The flesh is (eventually) to be transcended, not transfigured.
Easily placing the male genitalia (and female) under the reference of "junk." Otherwise it would be limiting masculinity/femininity to what you find between the legs (or on the chest).
Ha! Not to say I plan on taking that perspective anytime soon...
:goes off to chase some lady folks:
-
Uni Verse, 93,
Why does this make genitalia junk? They are the means of expression of union in the realm of Assiah.
The fact that any one plane has its limits doesn't make the things of that plane 'junk.' Genitals perform their functions on the physical level, as psychic organs do the same on theirs.
If you take an alchemical perspective, as I do, then you need the union of genitals as step one. The lead that is turned into gold is not to be despised, because it <i>embodies</i> the gold, or at least contains the principle of gold within it.
Transcendence, as you seem to mean it here, strikes me as being a form of disconnection or dissociation, like an old Aeon perspective on overcoming 'evil' matter with 'good' spirit. There's a false dichotomy built into that viewpoint.
93 93/93,
EM
-
"While I don't agree with a lot of what Froclown says, I don't see the problem with the usage of that slang word. Honestly, it's no worse than any other word out there besides using the the proper words of "penis" and "phallus".
lux wrote:
"common slang" is just that - common. last time i checked, thelemites were RoyalEh, I see that as horseshit. Royal or not, a Thelemite moving with his/her True Will speaks as they are to, not how someone else dictates a Royal should."
Actually, the choice of words is significant. Whether you like it or not, if you use junk to refer to your sexual organs, and then you use it in another context, like when you throw something out, your subconscious doesn't miss the link. "Oh, same word."
Words represent Ideas. You can call your woman a 'bitch' or 'ho,' and that's what she will be to you. Take some responsibility.
As for transcending the body, we all do that, upon death. Any notion of doing that sooner is corruption in the sphere of Malkuth. Translation: Hatred of the body is associated with guilt of its functions, and has a long tradition in organized religions like Christianity, Islam et al. So 'Old Aeon.'
93, 93/93
-
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
@kuniggety said
"Eh, I see that as horseshit. Royal or not, a Thelemite moving with his/her True Will speaks as they are to, not how someone else dictates a Royal should."
chuckle
"common" was his word, not mine - i quite agree with you, though. after all, "A King may choose his garment as he will: there is no certain test."
of course, it's also true that "a beggar cannot hide his poverty."
@Uni-Verse said
"I merely meant to imply that the fat man could "die (transform)" into a thin man through exercise, etcetera. "
yes! yes! yes! i'm with you! die daily! absolutely!
"We call it by a different name, but it still the same star in a different form."
amusingly, this is very similar to how my lodgemaster puts my experience into his words - he said something like "this is how your star manifests on the plane of discs."
i'm going to digress here for a moment (not that this whole thread hasn't been an exercise in digression since the first page.) no star completely manifests as Just One Thing on all planes. more to the point, nobody is "completely male" or "completely female" on all planes. a brief examination of any decent drawing of **(http://altreligion.about.com/library/graphics/baphomet4.jpg:1p3j6bmg) should serve as an example of that effect.
the idea is to find out how your star Does manifest. for a few of us, there's a gender-based ordeal involved with that. now, some people - like "froclown" here - are terrified of that ordeal, typically because they feel tendencies in that direction themselves. you may have noted the seemingly endless parade of virulent christist homophobes who have turned out to be quite queer indeed over the past few years. this effect is similar.
"All you seem to speak of is limitation..."
yes, i've noticed that in his posts as well. i suggest again that it comes from monotheistic tendencies, which are present to a greater or lesser extent in the vast majority of us raised in the west. in myself, it manifests in a "everybody should do it This way" kind of thing, and also as a tendency to state my opinions as fact - i'm sure some of you have noticed That particular fault of mine.
the first is one i've been working on since i identified it some time ago. as for the second, hah... i may have to resort to a liber III."The flesh is (eventually) to be transcended, not transfigured. "
i realize you're just playing "devil's advocate" here, first off (ye gods we need a better phrase for that)
life is change, Uni_Verse. our flesh transfigures itself constantly, under our conscious direction or not. your argument implies that working out, tattooing and watching what you eat, for example, should be avoided.
the difference is one of degree, not of kind. i just can't find a way to agree with you here.
"Easily placing the male genitalia (and female) under the reference of "junk." "
i quote from crowley's new comment
"We are now struck with the fact that Nuit commands us to exercise
the utmost freedom in our choice of the method of utilizing the
services of this our first, our finest and our fieriest talisman; the
license appears at first sight unconditioned in the most express
and explicit terms that it is possible to employ."our "finest and our fieriest talisman" hardly implies garbage!
@Edward Mason said
"I think you may be confusing boredom with tolerance."
noted, understood and Vastly amused by
let me say again - well said! such tolerance towards the path of another star is all too rare in the west, even within thelema itself.
now. for "froclown."
"Magick is not the man thinks he is a woman so he uses magick to mutilate himself"
all considerations of the english language aside, your sentence makes no sense. you say, basically, "magick is not magick."
"rather Magick works by the man realizing he is a man and accepting that, and casting all delusions to the contrary out of his mind, and learning to act like a man."
oh, so we're supposed to "accept the body god gave us?"
monotheistic nonsense. as i quoted above, crowley himself disagrees with you.
we must learn to be who we are, not who we appear to be.
on another plane entirely, the idea of "binary gender" has only been in vogue in the west for a relatively short period of time. many people (one out of a hundred) are born every day with some characteristics that are considered "male," and others that are considered "female" by the american medical profession. i refer you (or, more likely, those here with a will to expand their knowledge-base) to the following short piece on intersex births on PBS' website.
intersex is not transgenderism, but they're quite closely related and often appear in the same people. crowley considered himself to be a partial hermaphrodite - will you tell him to "be a man?"
"Magick does nat propose a supernatural excuse, "oh but I have a female soul, our a female kamic debt, or I was a womon in my last life" Magick may take the fact that one has accumulated these notions from ones life, as a part of ones Psychology, figure out why this is and discove how they add into the equation of ones WILL. "
these... suggestions of yours are specious and beside the point. for example, i have never claimed to "have a female soul" - indeed, i have never claimed to have a soul at all. these... ideas of yours simply betray your ignorance.
as for your second sentence, i quite agree with you. my life experience has made me Certain Without Error that part of my will is to be transgendered. i realize that this is probably not what you're trying to imply, but your clumsiness with the language and your inability to make your points clearly serves me well in this regard.
"There are other options, but do insist that he really is thin, but trapped in a fat mans body, is a lie."
you're confusing the planes. i do Not insist that i am a woman trapped in a man's body - i insist that i am transgendered. perhaps you're intellectually incapable of negotiating that difference.
"A spade is a spade. If one happens to be a spade, the fist step is to stop trying to be something else. "
again, your poorly constructed arguments and lack of talent with written english have made my point for me - as i am transgendered, the first (not fist - i get kinky but i'm not into That, thank you very much) step was to stop trying to be a guy.
"Seeing as you constantly excrete parts of your body and take in more raw material, and every 7 years every last cell and atom is replaced, them you do not even exist at all."
so... we're not what we're made of? above you seem to say the exact opposite.
and OF COURSE we don't exist! i'd like to tell you about this great book. reading it really changed my life - it's called Liber AL vel Legis - you should really check it out to understand where i'm comnig from, although based on your posts i don't think you'd like it very much!
mkay maybe that was a little much
"Do you suppose that if you eat cut off chunks of flesh from a person and eat only that one persons flesh fou 7 years that you will become the person you ate? Of course not. Thus Reincarnation is false."
first off, False? False?!? again, we see these monotheistic tendencies.
also, your argument makes no logical sense. it's like saying "because i don't grow wings after eating nothing but poultry, there's no such thing as flying."
"That is how it is"
more monotheism! are you sure you're in the right forum?
"The point is that a thing is what it is, and its a lot easier to change tho mind than to fight against the nature of things. "
again, you're confusing the planes and making my point for me.
"If you insist on pissing into the wind or paddling your canoe up stream, then by all means do. But do not suppose that this is the following of the TAO.
"again, you've made my point for me. i'm transgendered - not a man at all!
"I have no interest in persecuting the transgendered"
you seem to have every interest in belittling us, telling us that "we're WRONG" and so on - where i come from, that's a form of persecution. by the way, i come from planet earth. it's a nice place - please don't come visit!
obviously, there are more intense types of persecution, but in history the milder forms typically lead to the more extreme ones.
after all, hitler didn't round up the gays and jews first!
"I simple find that perhaps what leads one to such an act is a grass in alyas greener situation, where if one is not content with ones natural gender, one may find that becoming the other is not in reality any more satisfying than ones original state.
"again with the binary gender nonsense.
i'll tell you something else - very few people do what i've done because they think "the grass is greener" or they're "discontented." we do it because it's Who We Are - because it's Our Will.
sure, you see the people on the talk shows who transition and then are dissatisfied. typically, they're not actually transgendered - they just think they're transgendered. and YEAH - that would really suck ass if somebody got a vaginoplasty from an unethical surgeon who didn't require letters from psychiatrists and so on to perform the operation and then turned out to not actually be transgendered! this, however, does NOT imply that there's no such thing as transgended people.
outliers simply do Not define the curve.
" the true lesson of these powers is that contentment comes from within, from higher practices that disavow the changing ones circumstance "
dude, seriously, what exactly is thelemic about your ideas here? i mean, you're using words like "will" and "magick" but it's like they're just window dressing.
"It is the failure to find happiness in powers and abilities, that leads one to the spiritual life."
again, monotheism.
besides -** BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!**
this gives a real insight into your character, "froclown." you're an Unhappy person. you've apparently come to thelema because you feel something missing and you think that thelema will give it to you.
you'll find, if you've the strength to continue, that you're laboring under lust of result. i'd wish you luck, but i think it will be more fun watching you flounder about the shallows of initiation, wondering when you'll get the result you're so clearly lusting after.
"Do what thou Wilt = Be what you are. "
again, you make your point for me.
do you have any idea what it is Exactly that you're trying to say? i don't think you do!
hah - and you think i'm shooting from the hip!
"Also, I did not even get into the holistic effects of things, the fact that gender is a social role, not directly related to physical genitalia."
NO SHI*T, SHERLOCK.
when transgendered people "go full time," what they do is change their social role! the vast majority of female to male ts folks never have the "gender reassignment surgery" and if you'd seen the results of that surgery you'd know why!
i mean, come on, an air pump in your testicles that you squeeze to get hard? it looks even sillier than it sounds - no wonder most of them don't do it!
this is also true for a growing number of mtf people - including myself.
being a woman in society and hormone replacement therapy is plenty enough for me, for one thing. changing the orientation of my penis from an outie to an innie just wasn't what i needed to do.
however, for some people, it IS what they need to do. there's a whole spectrum there - i highly recommend you educate yourself before making an even bigger fool - or "clown" - of yourself.
of course, my "hermaphrodite of science" body creates some rather amusing difficulties with some of the more techical aspects of certain sex magick rituals, but that's Nothing compared to what i went through before i went through with it. besides, the rituals are pretty incomplete and one-sided - which is only natural. sometimes people complain that crowley didn't write any lesbian sex magick - i say, how could he?!?
extrapolating from your point of view, "froclown," i'd say you probably think that homosexuality is "wrong," too, so maybe that example is lost on you.
"To compel the physical body to perform in ways it in not designed for, runs us into problems.
""froclown" - by all means, go back to the trees! better yet - back to the ocean! c'mere and i'll give ya a push!
just the fact that we stand upright causes us problems. look at what happens to our feet! our back! we've radically altered our evolutionary curve to harmonize it with solar radiation. by all means, though, hop along on all fours! i'll be the one laughing at you really, really loud and shouting "go doggie, go doggie, go!"
what i'm saying here, in case you've missed it, is that you're points here are so poorly thought out that you've ended up making my argument for me and have presented yourself as a monotheist taboot.
"III, 56. Begone! ye mockers; even though ye laugh in my honour ye shall laugh not long: then when ye are sad know that I have forsaken you."
Love is the law, love under will
-
@Edward Mason said
"
Transcendence, as you seem to mean it here, strikes me as being a form of disconnection or dissociation, like an old Aeon perspective on overcoming 'evil' matter with 'good' spirit. There's a false dichotomy built into that viewpoint.
"My reference was in regards to absolving oneself of dichotomy. Where a person ceases to be neither male nor female, the genitalia becoming "junk" a representation of what was, but no longer is. As they have come into union.
I am thinking of it as more a false representation of the individual, that needs to be tossed out (not literally tossed out).
@Edward Mason said
"
The lead that is turned into gold is not to be despised, because it embodies the gold, or at least contains the principle of gold within it.
"Lead can be turned into gold, but you should never mistake lead for gold.
Goldschlager (a liquor with gold flecks) would be deadly if they put lead flecks in it instead.@Edward Mason said
"
They are the means of expression of union in the realm of Assiah.
"Only one of the means. Sex can be an expression of union or it can be just sex. It is my opinion that the lead is not gold by default, nor is the genitalia a means of expression by default.
They have the potential to be but into those modes, certainly. But they cannot reach them on their own.
Side note:
Around here, junk is common slang. -
93,
"It is my opinion that the lead is not gold by default, nor is the genitalia a means of expression by default. "
I'd respond to this, but I don't understand your meaning.
"
Where a person ceases to be neither male nor female, the genitalia becoming "junk" a representation of what was, but no longer is. As they have come into union. "I think I see your point. Still, I'd have thought genitalia in union would be anything BUT junk, since they're forming a gate to ecstasy. Words carry meanings and levels of meaning, which is why choosing words carefully is a key element in ritual.
93 93/93,
EM
-
If there is any deep meaning to why I used the term junk, it is because the context of the sentence was the cutting off and casting away of the genitalia, as if it were junk.
But like I said "cut your junk off" is a common slang way of saying this.
The problem I see, is that you think in terms of Cartesian dualism, in fact something of a Cartesian multi-layered system. That is you fail to realize that the physical world is the only world there is. Yes the brain organizes things into a hierarchy of abstraction, but in actuality there is only the physical.
Ones personal identity, is created physically via the impressions made from the external environment, including the social environment. That one has come to develop a self image that is at odds with ones Physiology or even ones social class, means that their is a problem with the self-image that can be changed, rather than social and biological reality which is the innate background into which one came to be, it is the substance of who and what one is.
You can not change these things to become more yourself. because it is these very elements that make up who one is.
Of course, one can have a minor effect or social changes and can take on any gender identity one chooses. "A king can choose his garment as he WILL". but the verse also says "deem ye not of change, all is ever as it was".
If you wish to go in disguise as another class or gender that is well and good, but you can not change the facts of physiology.
I have friends who are furries, and they may want with all their hearts to be foxes, skunks, or Wolverines, they play act them with each other, they even wear costumes and entangle their sexual identities in these characters they created for themselves, basically invoking them before sex parties etc. However, they even it they have their teeth sharpened and tails grafted to the base of their spines, they do not become those animals, any more than that guy with tattoos and a forked tongue is actually a lizard-man, no matter how many meal worms he eats on stage.
Likewise, I play a female avatar on second life, partly because people give me money for no reason, and partly because if I must look at my characters ass all the time, it might as well be female. There are other reasons. But, I also take the form of a pill bug, an alien, and a male star trek guy, depending on the situation. However, changing ones external appearance does not change one fundamentally, as I learned from in the attainment of knowledge and conversation.
I an not saying one should or should not change gender, I am just saying that changing clothes does not change who one is, that was set in childhood, and it takes great inner work to change those imprints.
The lizard man, is not a lizard, and he only enjoys the esteem he does because people clap for him and such, but they are mocking him, the see him as a freak, not as an example of a man who achieved his ideals.
Not that a transsexual is a freak like the lizard man, I used the term loosely to mean that which deviates from its natural physical form. As one with 11 toes is considered a "freak of nature" that is a divination from the norm, rather than its own species.
The Transsexual remains the sex (s)he was at birth, but is a deviation from of that form.
Where Thelema applies to changing the world or society, of things of this nature, include those who are castrated at an early age, to be used an Eunuchs. Also where women are forced to hide under burkahs, in such a case that they are not allowed to be what they are.
They changes to be made even in this case are not to be huge revolutions, but to change the mentality of the oppressive class. To impose rule over they oppressors only leads to violence, rather they change of ideal, means they will lift the oppression on their own.
I do not seek to impose a law that makes people not allowed to transgender, any more than I want to see it illegal to get ridiculous full body tattoos and eat worms on a stage. Thelema is about changing the ideals on which the social system is based, thus creating a situation where The WILL of the individual is not restricted such that they form self images that are out of agreement with their physical biology and/or social class.
-
and if by monotheist, you mean I believe is objective reality and not in postmodern pluralist bullshit, Then I will accept your title of mono-theist. Of course I consider myself an A-theist but if belief that their is a reality of some kind is a GOD, then fine I believe in that "GOD".
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
"froclown," i see you've either not read or not understood my post. i'll assume the first, and from this point foward treat you Likewise.
Love is the law, love under will
-
93,
Froclown wrote:
"The problem I see, is that you think in terms of Cartesian dualism, in fact something of a Cartesian multi-layered system. That is you fail to realize that the physical world is the only world there is. Yes the brain organizes things into a hierarchy of abstraction, but in actuality there is only the physical. "
I fully accept a multilayered perspective, because my life's experiences have shown me one.
We differ on this, and there isn't much point endlessly rehashing it.
"Ones personal identity, is created physically via the impressions made from the external environment, including the social environment. That one has come to develop a self image that is at odds with ones Physiology or even ones social class, means that their is a problem with the self-image that can be changed, rather than social and biological reality which is the innate background into which one came to be, it is the substance of who and what one is. "
This is only part of the picture, according to what I have experienced and learned. Again, endlessly going over it will not resolve the difference we have.
"However, changing ones external appearance does not change one fundamentally, as I learned from in the attainment of knowledge and conversation. "
I accept you believe you have had the K&C.
But going by these rambling, mean-spirited, weasel-worded posts with all the self-justifications and insecurities they exhibit, I sincerely doubt it has truly come about.
93 93/93,
EM