Goetic "Demons"
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I take the entire tree of life to be a model of our minds, even Kether is subjective, the objective world of things I refer to exists beyond the tree of life, across the triple abyss of the ayn sof.
Kether is the point where an object comes to effect the subjective mind. The Ayn Sof, the barrier of the flesh the sense organs.
Bina the calm membrane of the mind, Chokmah the vibrations in that membrane.
Taken together these are all possible mental phenomena, which one encounters in the abyss.
These are categorized on down the tree and manifest in awareness as Malkuth.
But each point at Kether is a unique entity with its unique vibrations, that uniquely effects the tranquility of Bina.
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@Froclown said
"I take the entire tree of life to be a model of our minds, even Kether is subjective, the objective world of things I refer to exists beyond the tree of life, across the triple abyss of the ayn sof."
Ait. I on the other hand take it to be a model of existence-as-a-whole along with the above stated Hermetic axiom, which concludes that the mind's model of the world can only work if it's modeled by the blueprint, so naturally we should be able to make internal models for how our minds work from it, or it wouldn't be the model of how existence works, right? So, this system given, how does that make us know that we're not the butterfly dreaming about a man dreaming about a butterfly? How do you figure you're going external on yourself in order to judge this with authority?
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If there is no world outside the mind, then what is it the mind makes models of?
If the mind can make up whatever it wants, with no external model to compare with, then their is no distinction between True and False.
If you do not distinguish between truth and error, then in what way can you judge what I say to be incorrect?
On what grounds am I mistaken, what correct state of affairs do I fall short of, being that you do not believe their is a "just the way things actually are out there" as opposed to what we happen to dream up.
If there is no external reality, of which all we think and know when TRUE is a reflection of that reality, when false a distortion of it. Then on what grounds can you judge Truth from falsehood or err in perception or judgment?
Are illusions and hallucinations just as true as solid objects, only the illusions exist on other planes, are not quite as formed as rocks and trees?
Illusions are errors in perceptions.
Hallucinations are images without actual objects.Both are false, truth is correct perception of reality.
Goetic spirits, are induced illusions of a certain kinds, that can provide practice for certain parts of the mind.
If I ask a spirit to make an object levitate, the object remains on the table, as there is no spirit, and the evokation ritual can not defy physics.
Even if there was a spirit and it could move wrenches through the air. The spirit is a something, and it moved the wrench via some process. Therefore it is some kind of hitherto unknown or unexplained but undeniably physical process.
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"Even if there was a spirit and it could move wrenches through the air. The spirit is a something, and it moved the wrench via some process. Therefore it is some kind of hitherto unknown or unexplained but undeniably physical process."
Froclown Have you ever worked with the Goetia? or the Invocation or evocation of any spirits? I have had far stranger things happen than that what you mention .. There are some brilliant analogies on this thread but its mostly arm chair talk..
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can you provide evidence for your claims?
Could you repeat these events, on video, with sensors.
I would like to get ambient temperature readings, EMF, background radiation, also some vital signs, heart rate and brain waves would be useful.
Without such evidence it might be that you threw the object yourself while under a strange mental state.
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"Your teachers, the mystics of both schools, have reversed causality in their consciousness, then strive to reverse it in existence. They take their emotions as a cause, and their mind as a passive effect. They make their emotions their tool for perceiving reality. They hold their desires as an irreducible primary, as a fact superseding all facts. An honest man does not desire until he has identified the object of his desire. He says: "It is, therefore I want it." They say: "I want it, therefore it is."
They want to cheat the axiom of existence and consciousness, they want their consciousness to be an instrument not of perceiving but of creating existence, and existence to be not the object but the subject of their consciousness—they want to be that God they created in their image and likeness, who creates a universe out of a void by means of an arbitrary whim. But reality is not to be cheated. What they achieve is the opposite of their desire. They want an omnipotent power over existence; instead, they lose the power of their consciousness. By refusing to know, they condemn themselves to the horror of a perpetual unknown." (John Galt)
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@Froclown said
"If there is no world outside the mind, then what is it the mind makes models of?
If the mind can make up whatever it wants, with no external model to compare with, then their is no distinction between True and False."
You don't only necessitate the existence of models, but also that of a mind to reflect it. The most objective standpoint is the one with least necessary conditions to support it (again, Occham's Razor). Objectivity is the observation point of truth. By your objectivist perspective, you claim more than I do in mine. By that simple reasoning it's more likely that I and not you tell the truth. I've won because I include your arguments in mine, but you don't include mine in your's.
You speak of truth, while I speak of efficiency and we generally mean the same thing. When I speak of truth I am silent or utter a meaningless 'Mu!' to encapsulate only the inexpressibility of "it".
This is where I levitate out of this discussion, because we've now repeated the cycle of reasoning in it 23 times and I want to go to a holier place.
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If there is X that is efficient and Y which is not efficient, that means that there is some reason why X is not like Y.
X and Y are different, thus reality does not stem from an undifferentiated spirit stuff.
If it did then doing X or doing Y would have the exact same result. You cauld obtain any result, without doing anything.
Since only doing the right thing in the right way at the right time to the right object obtains the result you want, that means their is a reality in which things have attributes.
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Jesus Christ! I just clicked on my profile out of curiosity and then clicked on my most active topic, which was this particular thread and... holy shit... I can't believe I had the words to say all this 3 years ago. Today, I am basically stunted when it comes to talking about this kind of stuff. I didn't just reread the whole thread, but I got through about half of it.
I would have to say there's something to be said for doing a couple disciplines at the same time. I really haven't been doing any WMT/Qabalistic work for the last 3 years. Rereading this thread was like relearning or remembering a past incarnation or something. Wild stuff. Is Froclown still around?