Worship me with wine and strange drugs
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LSD, the wall and magick all may invoulve existential dispare as can study of philosophy.
However I thing magick holds the key to transcend that abyss, where as without it the best one can do is distract one self from it and build up tolerance or a "wall" against it.
The wall hints at facing this abyss with the wall removed, but the result was madness and suicide.
The Wall is rated number one in my list or films that depress the viewer into a coma.
Of course the final episode of six feet under in extremely depressing as well, but its more of a grief/sadness, not the facing ones True self and inner demons trip of the wall.
Of course LSD con set one on this trip more than anything.
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I have had some interesting experiences mixing drugs with The Wall, both the movie and the album...(such as being attacked by zombies- those who have built a wall too strong?).
Drugs, like anything, can be a useful tool. It is just that one has to be all the more careful not to become addicted.
Magick, and especially mysticism is about alerted states. And many of the mental tools I have developed to deal with a bad trip have been helpful in my studies. Allowing me to keep my head when something frightening or unexpected happens.
Not that I would suggest mixing drugs and ritual. Then you are just playing with fire, young Prometheus
The line itself, I do not see necessarily as a call to use drugs. It is more a note about the sobriety which can come with intoxication. The revelation of the you which hides behind the wall you have created between yourself and society.
Furthermore, I see it as a call to live life to the fullest. Although you do not have to take drugs, do not be afraid to just because others say it is bad for you. Partake and make a judgment for yourself. With a tie in to "change = stability" where you are Hadit, He who Goes. Taking "strange drugs" because you have already done all that is considered "normal." The constant strive for new and mind altering experieinces, if you Will.
Just remember to be their Master and not their Slave
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@Uni_Verse said
"Not that I would suggest mixing drugs and ritual. Then you are just playing with fire, young Prometheus
"Prometheus didn't play with fire. He knew what he was doing
Icarus might be a better analogy.
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That is why I said young Prometheus!
In this case, I was looking at the story of Prometheus ( or using it) as an analogy to not letting the fire come from elsewhere. Let it come from your heart, or like Prometheus, you will find yourself constantly pushing the stone up the hill, but getting nowhere (cycle of drug abuse).
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@Uni_Verse said
"...or like Prometheus, you will find yourself constantly pushing the stone up the hill, but getting nowhere (cycle of drug abuse)."
Yeah, your point is well made.
That's not the Prometheus myth, though. That was Sisyphus.
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I always wanted to know, what could truly happen if you did a ritual using psychedelics
I never try it.. but just always wonder
Heres a funny thing..
while doing a ritual I used to smoke marijuana, before i got into the heaviness of magick, and realized how important is to keep sober to improve ones life.
But i would do the LBRP while I was high as a kite off weed and I would sober up. as If i never did a drug at all, I dont know but I wanted to comment that some rituals will sober you up.
I never tried other drugs doing the LBRP, but maybe my theories are incorrect.
King Solomon
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@Kingsolomon said
"I always wanted to know, what could truly happen if you did a ritual using psychedelics"
I always bring ritual to my psychedelics.
I never bring psychedelics to my ritual.
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LBRP on LSD had the opposite effect of its intended purpose. The casting out of pentagrams at each corner took part of me with it. The result was my "head space" for lack of a better term was expanded to the horizons rather that focused on the limits of the circle. Both the physical horizon and the "elemental" limits. My ritual space was thus too big to protect, and I quickly reeled myself back in.
The microcosm should normally only expand to the wall of the circle. The pentagrams push back influences near the circle, while the minds focus pull in. LSD tends to work like a bridge rectifier in electric circuits, in makes sure all current flow is one way, out of the mind. Thus In is out and out is out, and thus the hallucinations.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Just to act as a control here, I've never taken LSD (the one exception to the repertoire), and usually only see the faintest hints of light. But, there are probably a host of factors here, perhaps genetic, as there are certainly genetic factors involved in drug addiction.
However, it seems like any operation involving a hallucinogen and a separate entity would need incredibly strict verifications! I suppose you could assume that everything seen on LSD is in some sense true, but specificity is implied in doing a particular ritual, so it seems that it should also apply to the result. Correct?
On a related note, you just can't beat the 2003 Chateux Sargent Bordeaux. It's subtle.
Love is the law, love under will.
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I was a 4 pack a day smoker,i used the will power method to quit and never looked back it works. I,am in no way better than anybody believe me . I, have been studying Thelema for many years now,,privately.When i joined the O.T.O. My expectations were rather high.[my fault]. But i,ve never seen such a lack of disciplin.Everybody drinks constantly even when there teaching classes on self disciplin,, i don,t get it.I think more should be done in this area,, i wish there was more focus on developing the Mind and Body,less drinking more nutrition for the body[a lot of us are slightly overweight
] Maybe even going as far as creating a Thelemic excercise prgram. Both physically and mentally developing ourselves,, is ,nt this what Thelemic Magick is all about,, Bettering ourselves,, Becoming Thelemic Magicians.I hope i,m not out of line. 93/93 93.. Frater Nocturnis. -
@Jim Eshelman said
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@Kingsolomon said
"I always wanted to know, what could truly happen if you did a ritual using psychedelics"I always bring ritual to my psychedelics.
I never bring psychedelics to my ritual."
this is the best thing i think anyone has added to the conversation thus far...
to the person who said they had the opposite affect intended by the pentagram ritual, i think that might have something to do with something about you, that goes beyond the external and manifest from whatever you have going on internally, so to speak. i have had wonderful results in doing this before a trip.
i take many psychedelic substances on a myriad of what i feel are meaningful occasions and as a seasoned tripper for many years now have learned the value of finding the right place and time... i'm a musician and the total ecstacy and flow of mind that comes from being able to mix the two is something that keeps me coming back. for me everything i do always comes back to my art, and all the philosophy involved even with every aspect of any topic discussed in places like this, are related and thrown back into my art, and that includes magick.
there are periods where for a whole month or more me and my band will trip on the weekends and converge in our practice space to manifest our minds in what we've come to see as a microcosm of creation. sometimes we use no drugs at all and are incorperating other types of phiosophy into what we do, and thats where magick comes in. this is how i try to find and manifest my will. for me being made in the image of god is about uniting those devided parts of my mind into a whole where the product is creation... i've sort of set up my whole practice around this.
i've had some pretty humbling and seemingly enlightened expirences from a wide relationship to an array of drugs, as well as battled with the worst of substance abuses. everything i've expirienced from intense heroin addiction, to the quiting of smoking cigarettes (which i too, did over night), has given me a piece of the puzzle and a foundation of expirience on which to build and find myself.
to speak about the drug comment... i think that nothing that happens is not meant to happen, and while alot of horrible consequences can come from elicit drug use (and abuse), you deffinately learn alot about yourself and how things work along the way... if you cant change and it does kill you, i belive you will have the oppurtunity to return until you can not make those mistakes ...but if your someone who for some reason or another have already figured out that you've been given infinite oppurtunities to correct those parts of you, and that the longer you spend doing it, the more you are hurting the overall progress of everything, than that expirience has served as a valuable life lesson hopefully having pointed you on the right path... whether you are overcoming addiction, or just trying to break out of an endless cycle of reincarnation.
a similiar example would be someone who goes to the mall to off a bunch of people... he spends the rest of his life in jail, and eventually finds jesus, winning his salvation... sure many people have died and the lives of those involved are absolutely ruined, but the criminal will have been able to face god with a clear consciouse and so that was gods plan all along right? everyone would have died anyway and we feel it's so awful because of the conditioning of our minds thats taken place to sensitize us to certain subjects we see on the news or other media... in reality everyone involved will have been given the oppurtunity to live up to whatever devine principal guided their fate and they will be judged accordingly.
i'm dont sympathise or agree with people becoming disgruntled and shooting other people, but the whole sense of apathy of knowing that the universe is a force working on impersonal principles, and not becoming wrapped up in the result of any one event, is what is implied by the line "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law"
for me it's like the hindu principle of dharma... what you expirience in your lifetime is the result of what you were going to or already have expirienced (karma) and so the only way to break out of that cycle, is to do what it takes to expirience and face it... whether you were or are going to be a drug addict, a murderer, or a magician.
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@dr. ski wampas said
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i'm dont sympathise or agree with people becoming disgruntled and shooting other people, but the whole sense of apathy of knowing that the universe is a force working on impersonal principles, and not becoming wrapped up in the result of any one event, is what is implied by the line "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law""If there is such thing as a sin in Thelema it is the taking away of another person's free will. To force someone against their will to do something or to take away their life is the ultimate attack on their free will. The only sin is restriction: restriction to oneself or to others.
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@DavidH said
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If there is such thing as a sin in Thelema it is the taking away of another person's free will. To force someone against their will to do something or to take away their life is the ultimate attack on their free will. The only sin is restriction: restriction to oneself or to others."
93 DavidH,
Erwin Hessle would disagree with you on that. See his essay 'The Ethics of Thelema' in 'Journal of Thelemic Studies' vol.1 no.1.
93 93/93
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Thank you for pointing me to that article. Yes, you are correct, Erwin Hessle does disagree with me on that. And maybe I am not informed, but I have no idea who Erwin Hessle is. So unless I can be shown that he has some place of honor and respect within Thelema, I won't take his comments seriously. Anyone can make comments.
If what he says is true, then Thelema is a breeding ground and sanctuary for psychos, serial killers, dictators, and anyone who wishes an excuse for controlling or harming others. No society could exist under such beliefs and I don't believe it is what Crowley believed or what Liber L meant.
So, do most people here agree with me or with this Hessle fellow? And who is he?
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I have no idea who the fellow is. I posted that link simply to evince the array of postulations that exist within the Thelemic community. I, personally, agree with you on this matter. 93's
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Within The Law is for All, Crowley's commentary on Liber AL, he writes of Thelema being a religion of Evolution in multiple view points. In the physical, he writes of the survival of the fittest. He also mentions one getting stampled on for the greatness of another, him specifically mentioning a raping for the founding of Rome.
I... don't agree with this however. I have your view DavidH. One might try and say it was the True Will of some man to rape a woman but what happened to her Will. Was it her will to be raped? I very seriously doubt that.
I think one of the problems is if you take an external approach or an internal approach, especially concerning Chapter III with its discussion of war and violence.
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The survival of the fittest does not neccesarily mean that you must kil the unfit. Nature itself will week out the unfit without interference from our wills.
Can you tell me where the comment on rape is? I'd like to read the entire context.
Thanks!
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@KRVB MMShCh said
"I posted that link simply to evince the array of postulations that exist within the Thelemic community."
Would you really say he's "within the Thelemic community"? (I guess you would, since you did.)
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I found the section, it's Crowley's commentary on III:20 Why? Because of the fall of Because, there is not there again.
His commentary kind of jumps around in thought a bit here. He is advocating action over thought but mentions Rome being founded on the rape of a Sabine woman, and asks if a reasoner would have advocated that rape.