Spare/Caroll and Sigils
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@MQL said
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"Found it to be a very effective way to succesfully do "Result" oriented magick. (which in my personal opinion, is something more thelemites should be doing ... )"Result oriented? Is there another kind of magick?
What kind of results? What are your definitions of result oriented magick and non-result oriented magick? 
"let me explain that when i say "results oriented magick" i'm refering to magick that creates verifiable results. Its all well and good to do some working to say, banish fear that would impede me from doing my Will; however, I'm not really going to be able to verify those results for some time.. however, if say I need a job - and I do a working to create wealth or the means to it, and two days later I get a phone call with someone offering me a job, well my magick worked!
I think people often times have a fear based approach to magick, fear that it won't work (so hence, they don't do any magick that they can see results from) or maybe even fear that it will, and golly jee - since I don't have K&C yet I might be using my powers for gasp evil purposes!
I thank Mithras I wasn't raised christian
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@Froclown said
"I like chaos magick for its methodological approach, it aims at results rather than stagecraft, dancing around in robes and such for its own sake.
However, I have to say I dislike it based on its extreme skeptical nihilism. It claims to only avoid dogma, but what it ends up doing in becoming hostile to not only dogmatic assertions, but to all explanations, all thought, and to reality itself and ones own TRUE WILL.
Chaos magick actively asserts, that no matter what, you are wrong, not because you fall short of the ability to get he right answer, but because there is nothing to get.
NOTHING IS TRUE!!" beams the dogmatic voice of the Chaoites super Ego.
Did I just see the thing I saw, did I leave the stove on, did I murder my parents? YES NO" MAYBE! There is no Truth, no thought is true!
Thus this toxicity to reality, this assertion of ones impotence to observe correctly (as there is no correct) is the anethma of TRUE WILL.
Chaos gives us a powerful methodology, while at the same time stripping us as the quality that allow us to direct that power, THE WILL, ie the REALITY.
Chaos magick is like an atom bomb that the more powerful the boom, the weaker the guidance system."
One can (like Crowley) use the techniques and methods of other systems without following its belief system you know.
That being said, I think you missed the point of Carroll's ideas here..
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"let me explain that when i say "results oriented magick" i'm refering to magick that creates verifiable results. Its all well and good to do some working to say, banish fear that would impede me from doing my Will; however, I'm not really going to be able to verify those results for some time.. however, if say I need a job - and I do a working to create wealth or the means to it, and two days later I get a phone call with someone offering me a job, well my magick worked!"
Like you said yourself, you may not be able to see the results as quickly, that's not the same as not getting results. The problem is that most of the really transformative deep inner work takes time to develop, and it takes patience and determination to persist without getting what we want Right Now. Besides, I personally can think of a lot of other things to employ magick for besides getting a job. I usually just put out apps.
"I think people often times have a fear based approach to magick, fear that it won't work (so hence, they don't do any magick that they can see results from) or maybe even fear that it will, and golly jee - since I don't have K&C yet I might be using my powers for gasp evil purposes!"
Having performed work of the long-term variety for many years now I can say that the results are quite apparent. Personally I don't fear any of these things you mention, I just place more importance on Self knowledge and development than I do on 'powers' or manifesting neat phenomenon that doesn't really do anything for me that I couldn't have accomplished by a few hours of pounding the pavement, or some equally simple task. Wanting things right now, without working for them is great, but not very realistic. And really, it's not that hard learn to 'make shit happen' (in fact we all are doing it constantly, though not necessarily consciously) but to surrender the ego to the Self, to come to knowledge of your purpose in life and of how best to implement that Will in the world well... isn't that worth working and waiting for? To become a true Adept, or a true Master, one must not stop half way up the mountain because one has come across an amusement park, IMO.
"I thank Mithras I wasn't raised christian"
Osirus say's your welcome!
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Exactly Thelema and the White brother hood in general, means discovering ones natural place, working with the limits of nature, and manifesting ones potential in a way that contributes meaningfully to the world.
Magick is not meant to be a complete denial in the real world, a means of ignoring the natural laws, a method of self deception that one has powers beyond the limits of the world, Nor is it a means to conquer the world and recreate it is ones own image. This is what the dark stars attempt to do and eventually they are crushed under the weight of all the Reality they alienate themselves from. Their Ego, severed from the natural world becomes empty and valueless, they loose that very thing they sought to empower.
"nature in order to be commanded must be obeyed." Rand
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First of all, I have myself used the sigils you speak of with success. Creating something of your own and then making it strange to the sight seems to be an effective method of getting results from the sigils. Whenever I look at the sigil I have created, it almost seems to take on a sentient essence. I have noticed spare felt the same way and would often draw faces and limbs etc on his sigils...perhaps we have this similarity due to the fact that I am also an artist.
Although sigil magick and other such usery (grey, result oriented, what have you) may be "neat", it is also, effective and helpful. Why throw away the proverbial favorite hammer in the tool box so you have to pound in the nails with your palm? A solid practitioner is well grounded in both mysticism and magick.
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I have to say some of the reply's here make me wonder what Thelemites find wrong with the Divinity of who they are now.
It seems that one must have a really really low self esteem to be a thelemite b/c obviously one's own ego and consciousness now is totally in the wrong, unholy and can't possibly know whats good for them even on a malkuth level..
i'll leave you to that reality, myself, i'll live in a magickal one where i actually can have a say in what i experience. After all, I am the Angel incarnate on Malkuth!
but in less reaction based terms.. there is the Path of the Magician, which finds that his experience is his biggest initiator, which is experienced through the experiences created by his Magick.
and of course one must do the things in this world which enable ones magick to manifest, to summon a spirit to get you a job, while not putting forth any means for that job to manifest (such as applying for one) is very bad juju indeed, and may just get a spirit rather upset with you (not fun in my experience). So yes, in that example, its a two-fold working. And that was only one easily refered to example.
this has devolved from a topic about a method of Magick, to a question of why one uses Magick...
self evolution? well first before I worry about K&C I need to worry about such things as food, shelter and companionship.. you know, those basic human needs? kinda hard to worry about union with the divine or whatnot when one is worried about rent for the next month.
jeesh, for a path created by the author of "magick in theory and PRACTICE" there sure is a lot of negativity associated with PRACTICE.
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If one can not provide food for oneself, then it would be better to physically get off your ass and figure something out.
If however, the reason you fail to provide food and shelter is that you have "spirits" which is to say psychological complexes or acquired habits that sabotage your efforts, Then rather that direct your magick at the results of attaining a loaf of bread or a night is a shelter, it might be more effective if you work with the "spirits" and that is with balancing out ones inner space, the subconscious mind. The end result of a balanced mind, is the dissolution of the ego awareness, As the ego itself is nothing but a soap box on which various "spirits" or complexes use to attempt to influence their unbalanced needs into the behavior. The balance of these inner voices, cancels out against each other, the conscious ego becomes quiet. The TRUE WILL then manifests, rather that the various unbalanced desires seeking gratification and control of the flesh to those ends, ie obsessions, addictions, fidgeting, etc.
Thus, by seeking K&C the lesser practical issues will clear up on their own, as if by magick.
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@Froclown said
"If one can not provide food for oneself, then it would be better to physically get off your {@$$} and figure something out.
If however, the reason you fail to provide food and shelter is that you have "spirits" which is to say psychological complexes or acquired habits that sabotage your efforts, Then rather that direct your magick at the results of attaining a loaf of bread or a night is a shelter, it might be more effective if you work with the "spirits" and that is with balancing out ones inner space, the subconscious mind. The end result of a balanced mind, is the dissolution of the ego awareness, As the ego itself is nothing but a soap box on which various "spirits" or complexes use to attempt to influence their unbalanced needs into the behavior. The balance of these inner voices, cancels out against each other, the conscious ego becomes quiet. The TRUE WILL then manifests, rather that the various unbalanced desires seeking gratification and control of the flesh to those ends, ie obsessions, addictions, fidgeting, etc.
Thus, by seeking K&C the lesser practical issues will clear up on their own, as if by magick."
thank you for illustrating my point, you see.. you, following the path of the Mystic might find that to be the case, myself, following the path of the Magician, might find it necessary to say "set one's affairs in order" before venturing upon higher paths, and find that the skills gained in doing so make the rest of the journay that much easier.... its not a better or worse sort of argument, what it is (in my goal here) is illustrating the difference in the fact that there IS different paths to attainment, one most easily refered to as the path of the mystic vs. the path of the magician or as Dion Fortune puts it, the path of the Mystic vs. the path of the Occultist.
What personally I find a big issue with, is the idea that one cannot or SHOULD NOT be a magician without the mystic attainment of K&C.
Do I disagree with the basic idea of achieving K&C? NO!
do I think that life might be a hell of a lot more interesting and fulfilling after K&C? YES!
however.....
Am I not STILL a magician before I reach that attainment of K&C?
YES YES YES!I chose to live as a magican.. hence Maya (reality) is my playground..
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Jonathan In my opinion the K&C is not necessary to do good magic most magicians that I have met who proclaim this attainment wouldn't know it if there K&C appeared as Pamela Anderson and kissed them on there ass.. I probably know two Magicians that I can say have achieved it and it was over many many years of practice and it wasn't through Liber Samekh etc I am not saying its not valuable its the ultimate goal for any serious magus..
If one can not provide food for oneself, then it would be better to physically get off your {@$$} and figure something out. If however, the reason you fail to provide food and shelter is that you have "spirits" which is to say psychological complexes or acquired habits that sabotage your efforts, Then rather that direct your magick at the results of attaining a loaf of bread or a night is a shelter, it might be more effective if you work with the "spirits" and that is with balancing out ones inner space, the subconscious mind. The end result of a balanced mind, is the dissolution of the ego awareness, As the ego itself is nothing but a soap box on which various "spirits" or complexes use to attempt to influence their unbalanced needs into the behavior. The balance of these inner voices, cancels out against each other, the conscious ego becomes quiet. The TRUE WILL then manifests, rather that the various unbalanced desires seeking gratification and control of the flesh to those ends, ie obsessions, addictions, fidgeting, etc. Thus, by seeking K&C the lesser practical issues will clear up on their own, as if by magi``` ck. This is very good advise everybody and there grandmother want to go bashing spirits around for all there mundane Poo .. I think even Duquette mentions you should only turn to the spirits when you have exhausted all other options. But there are other ways to practice practical magic eg: Planetary Talismans , Sigil Magic , etc etc .. -
ok.. lest anyone think i'm not getting this idea...
you want anything in the world, the first thing to do before any magickal ritual is to make it possible for those things to manifest in this world.
Hence, you want a job, go apply, put your resume on Monster, sign up with some temp agencies.
You want a lover? Go out, go to a club, meet some new people, sign up for an online dating service, do SOMETHING so your able to meet new people.
You want more intelligence/concentration/understanding? DO SOMETHING that will enable those skills to manifest....
then (and only then)
DO YOUR DAMN RITUAL
call up those spirits! invoke those forces! ask your friends on the astral plane!they WILL help! or shit, maybe its just me, but they always have me... you made it not that difficult for those forces to nudge things on this plane to make your ritual quite possible to be a success.
crap, use the damn force if you Will. Or make a sigil and send it out there.. any technique of Magick that works for you...
the thing is, in my experience, magick isnt about moving mountains (at least so far in my experience) its about nudging things.. moving the balance, cheating reality in a sense..hehe
all it takes is a nudge and reality will shift, if you have the knowledge and power to do it..
so yeah, create the circumstances that you have something to nudge..
but i'll tell you, in my career field, if I have the means to suddenly move my application to the top of the pile, or make my interview remembered by the guys in charge of hiring vs. the other 100 people who want my job b/c having it gives me the freedom to pursue my other life goals, FUCK YEAH i'm using them.
and well, i guess thats my point behind all this drivel about "result oriented magick" and the like..
i'm a magician, a Will-Worker, a "reality-shifter"...
the question is..why arent you?
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Ok it comes down basically to this.
A heroin addict can do "results oriented" magick to help him get his next fix, then when he needs another fix he can do another ritual to get it, and so on for the rest of his probably very short and miserable life.
Or the same addict can do rituals to invoke his HGA' and then under the authority of his HGA (TRUE WILL) he can call forth (Evoke) the spirit of his addiction, and command it to obey his WILL. Thus with his addiction under control, he cuts to the root of the problem, removes the source of his desperation for a fix. He can then take control of his drug seeking behavior, rather than allow it to control him. In the case of heroin it would be best to find a healthier replacement to feed this addiction "spirit" with, but only via a diplomatic solution between the TRUE WILL and the Spirit. The Spirit's nature must be respected, and used accordingly, No matter how toxic a spirit seems, it can be used to facilitate the WILL rather than to work against it, it only needs firm guiding instruction from the HGA.
THUSLY, the attainment of the HGA is a practical solution that gets to the root of our problems, where as so called results oriented magick only serves to appease specific "spirits" and these rather that go away, become encouraged and arrogant. They became unbalanced obsessions, often for things that are physically, emotionally, or sociologically harmful.
If one continues in this way, appeasing this or than spirit, not only is the HGA lost, but even the ego vanishes into a sea of disjointed desires, one becomes a seething mob of impressions with no central aim or concern, each against the others. The celestial order breaks down into the chaos of Hobbs' "all against all". See "Legion".
(maybe this is not what Crowley meant by the abyss, but When I fell into it I took it to be that)
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You don't need to achieve enlightenment to be a Buddhist either, you can just say you are one, and maybe sit on the floor sometimes. However, there is not much point to calling yourself a thing if you don't attempt to achieve in it.
The whole reason for magick is to balance out the waring factions in ones inner world, in order to transcend the lower mind, and contact the higher mind. If one only seeks to act out ones obsessions, a better name for what one is would be a slave to ones passions, A neurotic, psychotic, Megalomaniac, addict, miser, sex fiend, war monger, etc depending on tho nature of the particular "spirit" that you feed and sacrifice your higher self to, that is whatever you make into your GOD.
Thelema is about making none of these into God, it is balancing these out to discover your inner purpose, and setting this as the authority over all the lower spirits.
or to put it in the terms of Trent Reznor "Bow down before the one you serve, your going to get what you deserve"
Or as RAW put it in Illuminatus! "we are a group who takes our motto what the fellow with horns said to the man in the clouds... Non Servium"
