In knowledge conversion with?
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@Froclown said
"What is the difference between this "evil genius" and Babalon/Nuit."
Unrelated. (That's a big difference, right?)
Again, I recommend you study this in, say, Crowley's commentaries on Liber LXV. I haven't the time to search it all out right now, but you'll find that you aren't talking about the same thing.
You're also approaching this at the wrong level. The choice regarding the Evil Genius is something encountered by the proto-Adept in approaching the full 5=6.
"All this talk of great power and attainment, its all nothing but a trap and a test. The real adept is the one who sees the folly that marks each grade, in its turn. "
I agree to some extent - except, it's a mistake to do this before that grade has been fulfilled. Otherwise, you're skipping, which is restriction.
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@SetiDraconis said
"Thank you for your responses...how ever I still feel like im still left with some unanswered qustions...I belive part of my true will to be of the Draconian Typhonian/Sethian Current in this Universe..I hate to use tidals to discribe this force but it is a real force that I feel that I am of and its my calling and has been from a young age..some thing that is much deeper than just "ideas"..something much greater."
OK. Cool. But what's that have to do with the Evil Genius or Anti-HGA?
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OK, it seems I had this indexed and hadn't remembered. Here are some remarks on the subject from Crowley, from his commentary on Liber LXV:
@Liber LXV 4:34 said
"Spirit may therefore be manifested either as the Holy Guardian Angel or as the Evil Persona, the Dweller on the Threshold... The doctrine is also frequently found in folklore, where man is represented as attended by both a good and an evil genius. The horror of the latter is intensified by his function as the alternative to the Holy Guardian Angel. No other evil intelligence can compare with this either as subjectively terrible and loathsome or as objectively hostile. For the evil is no less a possibility of Attainment than the Holy Guardian Angel.
...Entirely different [than an example given concerning the Exempt Adept] is the case of the Dominus Liminis whose operation, if unsuccessful, may be a simple failure perhaps due to no serious error of his own. Apart from slight discouragement he should be able to try again without disadvantage. Indeed he should have used his failure as a means of instruction. [An admonishment against fear is repeated, then...] Once more the fascination of evil may be no less perilous than the fear. In any case he may expect to be confronted first of all by his Evil Genius He may fail to abide the onslaught. He may be thrust back from the threshold, and his defeat may be more or less damaging according to circumstances. But his fear may be so great as to induce him to transform it into fascination, or his exhaustion so complete that he is prepared to purchase rest at any price. In either case the result may be that he accepts his Evil Persona as his Guardian Angel.
I should be loath to assert that even so fearful a form of failure is necessarily fatal and final, although evidently it must always create a disastrous karma - as involving the assertion (fortified by the most solemn oaths and sealed by the most intense ecstasy) of the absolute existence of evil (in a sense of the word actually ad hoc defined by himself) - i.e., he has acquiesced in duality, established an interior conflict in himself, and ceremonially blasphemed and denied the unity of his own True will. Appalling as is such a catastrophe, it lacks the element of finality since the principles involved do not extend above Tiphereth. He has become a Black Magician, no doubt, but this is far indeed from being a Black Brother. It cannot even be said that such an one thereby manifests any tendency to become a Black Brother when the time is ripe; for his union even with the personification of Evil is also an act of love under will, though that will be false and vitiated by every conceivable defect and error. [There is more, which I recommend you look up and read if finding yourself in this situation... but I'm excerpting only. - JAE]"
See also the commentary on 4:37 where the HGA triumphs over the illusory Evil Genius.
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hmm, I never really encountered any sort of unified Evil genius, seemed more like a whole "SET" of illusions and potential false personas, like masks and roles that attempted to make themselves manifest, by taking control over my mind. All seething and fighting the EGO for their chance at the wheel.
Ultimately it was the eternal Solar power of Horus that stepped forth to conquer the Shadows of SETH, and ruled in the place of the Ego (Osiris) who dies and is reborn. From the dark night of the Soul, into the Golden Dawn, as it were.
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Froclown...with your last words only proves my point that aspects of Thelema are Anti Seth Anti Draconian..hence the rejection of any of the Adepts with roots in Thelema such as Grant Sor Nema and others.
It seems to me that there seems to be a Anti Left Hand Path in or with members of Thelema or Thelema its self...which doesnt make since because what if part of my will is of the essance of Set??
This has been my whole issue that im trying to figure out with Thelema why is there all most nothing about Set/Tyhpon and so much basis on Horus Osiris.
Why does every thing have to be white light and fluffy....why is there a abseince of the Darker Currents?
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"OK. Cool. But what's that have to do with the Evil Genius or Anti-HGA?"
No I am not Anti HGA but I was woundering why if both these are aspects of ones being why must ones Evil Genius be the "Wrong" Way?
I am know adept but I know from my very real "Occult" Experances that there is more than one way to a divine sorce and it doesnt have to be the 'Right Hand Path" white light way!
To each there own in the end.
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@SetiDraconis said
"It seems to me that there seems to be a Anti Left Hand Path in or with members of Thelema or Thelema its self...which doesnt make since because what if part of my will is of the essance of Set??"
There is no anti-Set regimen in Thelema. Ultimately, Set is the same as Horus (two faces of the same coin). But this also has nothing to do with the Evil Genius! It sounds more to me like you are saying that (it is your intuition that) the Set archetype has some strong relationship to your own Holy Guardian Angel. In that case, it's quite the opposite of the Evil Genius!
"This has been my whole issue that im trying to figure out with Thelema why is there all most nothing about Set/Tyhpon and so much basis on Horus Osiris."
It's simply not a primaryarchetype of the system, so it gets relatively little mention. OTOH, some of Crowley's earliest Qabalistic analysis of Liber L. dealt with certain ligatures that are equivalent to the letters Shin Teth or (in Greek) Sigma Theta. You should also explore the other Holy Books (Class A Documents of A.'.A.'.), especially Liber LXV, Liber A'ash, and others, for mention of the Set, Typhon, and Apophis archetypes.
Thelemites can pursue any number of archetypal - worship any gods at all. Don't worry about whether anybody is leading the way on your idea of God. Just find it and pursue it.
"Why does every thing have to be white light and fluffy....why is there a abseince of the Darker Currents?"
You haven't read The Book of the Law lately, have you! It's hardly "all white and fluffy."
Then again... what do you mean by "the Darker Currents"?
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@SetiDraconis said
"
"OK. Cool. But what's that have to do with the Evil Genius or Anti-HGA?"No I am not Anti HGA but I was woundering why if both these are aspects of ones being why must ones Evil Genius be the "Wrong" Way?"
No, I wasn't saying that you are anti-HGA. I was clarifying the definition. The Evil Genius IS the Anti-HGA. It's the "Wrong Way" by definition because the term "Evil Genius" is only applied to that which is the wrong way for you.
"I am know adept but I know from my very real "Occult" Experances that there is more than one way to a divine sorce and it doesnt have to be the 'Right Hand Path" white light way!
To each there own in the end."
I agree completely. I'm only clarifying terminology. We can't communicate without a common language. Since you are using terms that already have a specific meaning, it is important that you know what the words mean.
Screw the left vs. right terms - they mean something different on opposite sides of the globe anyway. If what you are describing is truly the right way for you then it is rooted in your HGA, not in your "Evil Genius."
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Jim yes sorry that last statement about White light fluff was a little out of anger I have read the Book of the Law and by far is any thing fluffy.
Infact to be very honest I find about half Thelemanites to have some typs of a Darker Current in them[hate to use tidals] I feel it when im at any OTO or TOT meeting I can all most pick them out by feeling them.
I will look into some of Crowleys earlyer work you are talkling about..im more than sure there is more im missing that I dont know about.
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ok, if you want to pursue shadows, diffuse your mind in a thousand directions, be hounded into dark corners by paranoia, confusion, and gnash your teeth as the bible says, then I am not going to stop you. I just assume that most people seek clarity and peace of mind.
Certainly we must accept that these shadows exist, and each has its proper role place, but to give oneself over to them seems a fatal mistake. These are the Goetia, the howling spirits, rather than allow then to tear ones mind this way and that, under the anarchy of SET. It seems wise to empower oneself under the rule of HORUS, who redeems each of these from his poverty, brings order and civilization to the howling masses, where each is governed and granted its proper place in the Sun. The seething madness, transformed into a well orchestrated celestial choir.
Horus conquers Set. Horus represents civilization and Set the untamed wilderness.
Set is actually given a great deal of import in the Thelemic System, when he takes the form of PAN, The Night of PAN being the battle of Horus with Set. Choronzon also a Thelemic/enochian manifestation of SET.
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@Froclown said
"Choronzon also a Thelemic/enochian manifestation of SET."
Uh, no! Set is a specific symbol of the Holy Guardian Angel in the A.'.A.'. training system (see, for example, Liber XXXVI).
Set is an alter ego of Horus.
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I can see that you side with the villian, the out cast seeking attention, power, revenge, withdraw, or worse annihilation of all.
If you study Adler you will se that this is caused by inferiority feelings, and discouragement from others.
Of course, the hero of good guy, to me is just the enabler of the villain. I do not seek to live as a goodness and light Christian type nor do I seek to be a brooding doer of mischievous deeds, or seeker of the dark forbidden powers.
These are two sides of the Ego coin, and no matter if your ego is personified with a dark cloak and a concealed dagger, or is a saffron robe bearing peace and good cheer, its still the Ego, and the ego can wear many masks.
The mask of Horus or of Set, even the mask of an adept.
The little lies and stories we tell ourselves for reassurance, only reassure the EGO.
Be it lies about Horus or Set.
Really the TRUE SELF does not know itself, I am the Knower, not what is known.
If you thing identifying with Set will accomplish something go a head, but the SELF locked behind the godform persona is not SET, it can play any role, for it is the shape shifter who never had a face.
Rather than force roles to hide your shame at being faceless, it might be wise to address the issue directly.
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Froclown says be hounded into dark corners by paranoia, confusion, and gnash your teeth as the bible says.
I think you are confuseing me with some type of Anton Lavey follower Satanist.
I assure you my roots are in a much older Draconian Tradtion other than some chezzy Church of Satan stuff.
To say that Set the untamed wilderness is foolish,the wilderness is a aspect of Set/Pan yes but keep in mind that the Cosmic force is also Saturn/Typhon/Shaitan and other names as well that play a much more of a Intellagent force umong other things in the universe.
So my freind we are obviosly on the diffrant spectrum of practice and such so of course you are going to follow your will as I will follow mine but you just sound like another white lighter saying the all powerfull Horus is the only way etc
There is more to the universe instead of a white light order or what not.
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Jim your words again are help full in regards to what you said..... [Uh, no! Set is a specific symbol of the Holy Guardian Angel in the A.'.A.'. training system (see, for example, Liber XXXVI)
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Froclown wrote.....I can see that you side with the villian, the out cast seeking attention, power, revenge, withdraw, or worse annihilation of all.
If this is all you think Set reprasents you need to do some more work on the matter before you speak of it...one of Set's great roles is he is the Intiater[Hence also Saturn] along with other things.
I am not some troubled youth thinking I do 'Black Magick" to harm people or for Low Magick reslults for earthly gains.
My pursute is one based on High Magick and Higher consciousness and undersranding myself my "Will".
So to think I am some troubled individual wanting attion and power you could not be more wrong with your assumtion.
And one more thing saying I seek the annihilation of all what purpsoe does that serve?...how does that advance mankind...are you thinking im so evil that I would distroy myself hahahaha....survial is a deeply rooted thing in mankind..makes no since!
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I was speaking of a Black brother in general and by definition.
Set = dark shadows, out cast vagabond, the barren chaos of the desert, the denial of rational control, civilized order.
He represents the untamed passions, the visceral reflex reactions, the unexamined life.
If you have some other attributes to Set than these, then I suppose your Set and mine are not the same.
I can only suppose thot following the path of set will only get your the same Results as Abdul Alhazred, which is to say torn limb from limb in the market place by invisible wolves (undirected inner forces, spirits, passions, obsessions, fears, etc).
That is not something I feel like having to deal with, (again)
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Froclown when you speak of Set im allmost waiting for you to say except Horus and your lord and savoir or burn in Hell for ever and Set wants your soul for his bidding.
There is decent deal of Information out there[Mainly by other LHP Intiates]who have worked with Set and your only discribieng some aspect of Set's Primal forces and makeing him sound like he reprasents some type of unstable uncontrollable Choas when this is not the case but becasue you are pro Horus in your workings, you have become Anti Set.
And to bring up a finctinal name "Abdul Alhazred" to futher point does not help...yes there has been some Black Brothers[and I say this term with out any type of this is "the wrong path" or ill way as perhaps you see it] but there has been some that have lost there mind becasuse they have done very dangerous work but let me say this,the same goes with some I know in Thelema who have invoked energys with in them selves that "Blew" there mind if you mite say and im refearing to some one who was doing a Enochian invocation and it went horrably wrong.
Every thing in the Universe is not so cut in dry weather it be philosophy or Ideas or even some energys for that matter.
The funny thing is so much respects when I was a young man I came accross a very powerfull Black Brother Adept who was asain and not part of any western mystery tradition and some of the things I was explained and tought ans shown are much along the same lines as Thelema[and this was even before I even studyed Thelema or Knew what it was] but my point being there is no divine retrobution for being a Black Brother or for being of the Darker Currents of the Universe..I dont care what you were tought or you think you know.
The Ego can defeat you Yes ive seen this in every day life let alone who has achived a higher consciousness..I can only imagine how this could play against one.
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Froclown im not here to fight with you eather but when you say some things has you have[or perhaps as you understand it] I have to defend my self.
But its ok being a Intiate of the LHP I am used to it from other Occultist.
After all it seems to be the dudy of all White Light people to put down any practice but there own....its the story of the last 2000 years it seems.
and I say that full knowing that not all in Thelema are not all White Light and such..but it seems those in Thelema that have chosen the other path are doing the wrong thing.
One thing for sure you wont here any LHP Intiate tell you you are doing the wrong thing becasue we know every one is diffrant with a diffrant calling..neather is wrong or right but were you stand in the Universe..and yes I know its all even much more complex than that and not so cut and dry.
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I never said it was morally wrong.
Just rather wrong in the sense that if you take a chainsaw to your arm, you will lose your arm. If your goal is to lose an arm, then by all means cut it off, but if you are not 100% sure that amputation is what you want, it may be wise to revoke the act before the consequences, which can not be revoked.
I am not altogether sure that the SET you speak of is the one I speak of, and my reference to HORUS, is only allegorical, that is whatever practice leads to the positive consequences of greater control over ones life I lump under the personification of Horus, those that detract from ones ability to take control over his life, I associate with SET.
As Gods are just symbols that represent nodes in our semantic web of constructed associations, not actual autonomous beings, There is no reason for be to assume your Set and my Horus are the same entity, as there is no entity.
Someone who is color blind has a different notion of gray than I do, and some of what he calls gray, over-laps with what I call blue.
Gray and Blue are matters of subjective category distinctions just as are Set and Horus. It seems to me that you take both Set and Horus to have light and dark aspects. Where as I take the light aspects of Set and Horus, and call them both HORUS. The Dark aspects of both I call SET.
(rather than light and dark, I prefer clarity/unity vs Confusion/dispersion.)
This is not unlike the notion in Discordianism that order can be creative or destructive, and so can disorder. Thus the Discordians prefer the Creative aspects of both order and disorder, where as most people seek order, even when it is destructive order they prefer it to constructive disorder.
But, ultimately we need to transcend these dualities, yet it is advantageous to create dualistic categories and linguistic labels for them in order to utilize them in the mind and the world (lower planes). However, it would be best if we see these as tools to get at truth rather than truth itself. I think we order the same dish on different menus, and argue about which menu calls it by its proper name.
Which tends to invoke a debate on Confucianism and whether or not names should be rectified, but that is for another thread.