Forcing astral sight
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@gerry456 said
"what are the best methods in your opinion to develop astral sight?"
That question comes up periodically here (or some variation of it). This forum really isn't the best place to do that. I've given introductions to the matter in classes (a couple of three-hour classes) and, to some extent, you're asking to be walked through a practicum on the core of the 1=10 curriculum.
I short, I don't know how I could begin to summarize that for you in trhe forum. Sorry.
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you know it was exactly this that led me to join the TOT.
There I was doing enochian or goetic evocation or the like.. and while I could "feel" the entities.. and sometimes see murky shadows in my black mirror i used for scrying, even hear at times what sounded like my own mind laughing at me or telling me various things..
I just couldn't tell the difference between those sights and sounds and my own mind.. the only concrete thing I could say about it is I could definately feel the energy of the entity.
Now, this wasn't so bad with Goetic evocation... after all, you can just tell them what you need them to do and they'll usually get right on that. Had a lot of success with it.. didn't really need to see or hear them for my purposes.
But everything else (such as scrying the Aethyrs or talking to the Enochian Angels) I felt like I was banging my head against the wall.
Oh god how jealous I was of those who seemed like seeing was easy for them.
anyway, I realized that I could have all the talent in the world, however you can only go so far without a serious foundation in the basic practices.. so who did I know that really had that foundation? jeesh.. those TOT guys.. well allright.. guess I'll go over there... hehe
still pisses me off to no end that I can't see as well as some of my magickal partners though.
(oh and Jim, you summed up my problem with evocation at that time rather perfectly.)
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Yes.
I like to think of the mind as a spider-web of concepts and relations between them.
The Spider is the Ego and it sits in the center of the web, where all the nodes meet, and it can pull the strings, and even direct its attention to alter or repair the web as it sees fit.
Now, anything that sits is the center of the Web, is sitting in the Ego throne, and wares the Crown of "I".
The mind has many lesser spiders who tend to act autonomously, unless they need conscious direction from the ego. When we Invoke, the Ego takes a break and hands the crown over to some other spider, and the whole web is then centered on the nature of that spiders place in the whole mind. Thus if one invokes the same entity over and over, it causes deep changes in ones personality, the invoked aspect can become an obsession, and fight for total dominance. Likewise any element that is not invoked becomes weak and and lacking in ones personality.
Anyway, Evokation calls, a lesser spider before the which ever spider wears the Ego crown, and commands it to get with the program. Thus, one first invokes the angel of a particular nature to wear the crown which gives it conscious authority over the lesser spirits that work in that area.
But, if you do not develop the authority via repeated invokations, then the lesser spirits will over power the authority of their angel, and each take turns passing the crown. The Unity of SELF is compromised, as the conscious self becomes the voices of lesser spirits, playing keep away with the Ego.
The only way to regain control, is via a powerful invokation of the HGA, which is the Angel in charge of keeping control, It is the HGA who determines who gets access the the Ego. The HGA is the Principle of WILL itself.
Unless one has attained Knowledge and Conversation, it is unwise to mess around with the System of rule, as one will take any voice that wares the crown as ones own, because it is, and obey it without question, unless a skeptical spirit wrestles the crown away in time to make an opposing demand.
A mind in the state of chaotic anarchy is by no means a Thelemic goal.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@gerry456 said
"i One very practical example: Can you control your own mind? Is your meditation experience sufficient that you can tell whence various thoughts or impressions arise? If not, then evoked spirits can, at the very least, be quite a nuisance. If you can't differentiate your own thoughts from theirs, you're setting yourself up for at least a practical joke, if not some serious harm.."
"can i control my mind? Isn't it fair to say that every quasi-civil member of the community who has not been diagnosed by the authorities as disordered in some way does indeed control their mind?
I presume yes that i know where my thoughts arise from? I take the Reichean view (as Regardie would) to be more reliable i.e. asking "am I armoured? Is there bodily rigidity in my social relations? Am i not generally at ease with myself? Are my relationships full of quarrels? Do i try to use gratifications to fill up a sense of emptiness? Do i react automatically in the throes of some opinion?" What do you think? If these factors are not common occurrences in our day to day activity then does this suggest that we do have mental control?
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@gerry456 said
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can i control my mind? Isn't it fair to say that every quasi-civil member of the community who has not been diagnosed by the authorities as disordered in some way does indeed control their mind?
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Excuse me for butting in, but, personally, not being able to keep my mind on one object for even 5 minutes without a multitude of breaks I would have to say - no. Hardly anyone , certainly no-one I've ever met can control their mind.
Give it a go. -
@gerry456 said
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@gerry456 said
"i One very practical example: Can you control your own mind? Is your meditation experience sufficient that you can tell whence various thoughts or impressions arise? If not, then evoked spirits can, at the very least, be quite a nuisance. If you can't differentiate your own thoughts from theirs, you're setting yourself up for at least a practical joke, if not some serious harm.."
can i control my mind? Isn't it fair to say that every quasi-civil member of the community who has not been diagnosed by the authorities as disordered in some way does indeed control their mind?
I presume yes that i know where my thoughts arise from? I take the Reichean view (as Regardie would) to be more reliable i.e. asking "am I armoured? Is there bodily rigidity in my social relations? Am i not generally at ease with myself? Are my relationships full of quarrels? Do i try to use gratifications to fill up a sense of emptiness? Do i react automatically in the throes of some opinion?" What do you think? If these factors are not common occurrences in our day to day activity then does this suggest that we do have mental control?"
"might i recomend trying the following practice.
sit down, relax. start focusing on your breath, in and out.. just following the breath, in - out.
everytime you catch yourself thinking about ANYTHING but your breath, gently go back to breath.
try to do that for a half hour.
record how many times you thought about anything but breath.
if you can think of nothing else but breath for over ten minutes i'll be very impressed.
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I have a problem with this sort of practice, just what counts as a break.
If I start thinking about my breath, and then I think about lungs and the capillaries, the diffusion of oxygen into my blood, the concentration of carbon dioxide, the miking of my breath with the air, the mixing of the air with plants. My unity with the plants.
Technically, I have not strayed my line of thought, from the breathing process, and I have expanded focus from centered on my body to a dispersed ego state. However, If i am to fully constrain my mind, maybe I should only have direct aware of the sensation and rhythm of my immediate physiology of breathing, without analytical though on the issue at all.
Now the first case is easy, the second is very hard, and the results of each are different, yet which practice one is expected to perform, is not generally clear from the instructions.
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@Froclown said
"I have a problem with this sort of practice, just what counts as a break.
If I start thinking about my breath, and then I think about lungs and the capillaries, the diffusion of oxygen into my blood, the concentration of carbon dioxide, the miking of my breath with the air, the mixing of the air with plants. My unity with the plants.
Technically, I have not strayed my line of thought, from the breathing process, and I have expanded focus from centered on my body to a dispersed ego state. However, If i am to fully constrain my mind, maybe I should only have direct aware of the sensation and rhythm of my immediate physiology of breathing, without analytical though on the issue at all.
Now the first case is easy, the second is very hard, and the results of each are different, yet which practice one is expected to perform, is not generally clear from the instructions."
You would be doing the latter example... just the feeling and awareness of breath. In the first, by thinking about all the correspondences regarding breathing, your allowing your mind to wander (although along a logical path) and this is a concentration practice, not a contemplation practice.
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@Froclown said
"Yes.
IThe only way to regain control, is via a powerful invokation of the HGA, which is the Angel in charge of keeping control, It is the HGA who determines who gets access the the Ego. The HGA is the Principle of WILL itself.
Unless one has attained Knowledge and Conversation, it is unwise to mess around with the System of rule, as one will take any voice that wares the crown as ones own, because it is, and obey it without question, unless a skeptical spirit wrestles the crown away in time to make an opposing demand.
A mind in the state of chaotic anarchy is by no means a Thelemic goal."
your arachnid based metaphor is wonderful however in the A'A' system the HGA invocation/attainment is attributed to 5=6 but evocation is encouraged in the lesser grade of 4=7 so i am puzzled by your logic unless you mean toned down versions of HGA- unification attributed to the lower grades e.g. the Middle Pillar Exercise. |I presume that such a process would be concomitant to any form of psychic self-defence purgative.
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I suppose at 4=7 one can simply invoke the spirits under their angels, Enochian for example would word well for this.
This could help with attainment of 5=6, which basically envolves balancing all the elemental forces, and uniting them with the balanced planetary force.
The seniors of the Enochian tablets are evoked under the invoked God of the tablets, and then the angels Evoked under them.
HMM, not so much a lesser HGA than a mere partial or unbalanced HGA is used here.
The Jewish systems calls upon YHVH and other names of GOD, but the control is better once one replaces the names of GOD with the HGA.
Unless one has a developed respect for these names of GOD, and no doubt in them, I would not use them. An Atheist or some one who wavers in his faith, is probably not going to get the spirits to obey the a God in which one either does not believe, or has imperfect faith in.
Thus the benefit of the HGA, one can not help but accept the authority, of the HGA is suited to oneself, assigned or built to ones unique specification.
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Have you ever considered the Vel Jugorum practice as the primary compass of the Thelemic voyage? i.e. it acts as the primary barometer (or touchstone) which shows how well one is progressing in mental control and in doing so shows how well equipped one is to take the work of the next grade. Concerning this discussion of astral sight/evocation it is introduced in 3=8 and only after complete control of speech is attained can one progress to even attempt evocation in 4=7.
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Jugorum seems good as a means to make one aware of certain habits, that generally spit by with out awareness.
Once the habit is tagged with the razor, then it become something one takes note of. The practice of Jugorum alone however does not help to change the habit. It requires some other level of work to change the behavior, once one is aware of it and how extensive it is.
The notable exception may be the habit of thought, for example changing personalities based on which hand the ring is on. The ring itself may be enough to mark the transition, but the razor can help to fine tune the process a bit.
Sometimes awareness itself is enough, to allow one to alter the behavior. Some behaviors are more difficult to change, smoking for example. Just because one is aware when one lights up, doesn't mean one can stop.
I believe the A.'.A.'. splits the 3 sections of jugorum across three grade, (Zelator, Practicus, and Philosophus) each section is the first step of that grade, awareness of that particular foundation, the later practices help one take control over those fundamentals.
(personally I prefer to assign the whole of Jugorum at the Zelator Grade, but it wold vary per individual.)
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@Anchorite said
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@gerry456 said
"can i control my mind? Isn't it fair to say that every quasi-civil member of the community who has not been diagnosed by the authorities as disordered in some way does indeed control their mind?
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Excuse me for butting in, but, personally, not being able to keep my mind on one object for even 5 minutes without a multitude of breaks I would have to say - no. Hardly anyone , certainly no-one I've ever met can control their mind.
Give it a go."never mind i thought you meant give evocation a go
but i now presume you meant mind control
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Recently discovering the goetic spirits are like abused children I decided I best not add to their troubles just yet! Enochian I can't wait to try - though I guess I'll have to if I want the best results.
I've worked with servitors, basic elementals and 'wild' elementals that seemed almost half faery but not yet gone on to the more cabalistic work.
I figured (coincidently seeing what was mentioned above by others), that my mind wasn't trained enough, especially on the 'Keep Silent' or 'lust of result' areas.I got badly burned by a water elemental too, obsessions led me to realise I really have a long way to go before I can safely try evocation.So finally admitting to myself that there were no short cuts I belatedly began the A.'.A.'. work.
Better late than never I guess
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93
Well as far as I can see you are are on the right website for that question. I believe Jim offers the official AA syllabus here and many of his students are following it.
Personally I'm going with Gems from the Equinox in conjunction with the Probationers Handbook, MITAP and others such as Magick of Alister Crowley (previously Magick of Thelema). Gems of course lists the other books you need.
I'm sure many here will be able to answer your questions better than I though.93