Incarnating from outside the human stream
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93,
There's a tendency among many Thelemic Qabalists to view archangels, elementals et al as aspects of the psyche, whether in an individual or a collective sense. We tend to take literally Crowley's famous warning about attributing objective existence to such things.
But at a certain point, we self-identify as being non-human at root, and try to form some conclusions about what we were before or outside of our progress through human existence. That produces some shifting of our ideas.
I think at one point there was a discussion on this group about elementals that incarnate. There is of course the legend of the Nephilim incarnating and procreating with the daughters of men. And I've met people who felt they were rebel angels come into the human line for purposes of eventual transcendence of their state.
My question is, to what extent may such entry into the stream of human incarnation still be happening? Do angels still hop into corporeal existence at times? Did we all get here in phases, or groups?
93 93/93,
EM
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@Edward Mason said
"But at a certain point, we self-identify as being non-human at root, and try to form some conclusions about what we were before or outside of our progress through human existence."
We do? Do you think this is a universal thing? In other words, is there a definite stage in, say, the A.'.A.'., where this identification as "non-human" crops up more often than not?
(I'm really not trying to be snarky... but I am a little skeptical...)
"My question is, to what extent may such entry into the stream of human incarnation still be happening? Do angels still hop into corporeal existence at times?"
A fictional, but wonderfully poetic account of this was given by author Hal Duncan, in the novels Vellum and Ink.
Steve
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Steven 93,
You said:
"Do you think this is a universal thing? In other words, is there a definite stage in, say, the A.'.A.'., where this identification as "non-human" crops up more often than not? "
I would say "beyond human" or "not 'just' human". I wouldn't want to state it begins at any specific stage, in A.'.A.'. or anywhere else. But if the K&C is a real experience, then it must about something that's more that our individual human selves. My own sense of what that might be says it's supra-dimensional - that is, not confined to a carbon-based body with a fixed duration of, in most cases, under 100 years.
93 93/93,
EM -
@Edward Mason said
"My question is, to what extent may such entry into the stream of human incarnation still be happening? Do angels still hop into corporeal existence at times? "
I've known several people that I've been sure were in their first human incarnation - the prior one having been some variety of Elemental. (In a few cases, the particular form was likely an animal rather than the immaterial kind.)
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93's
I've definitely felt some people are brand new, others very, very old, and then sometimes especially in children more recently it seems there's simply nobody home.. I ponder it quite often the fact that there's more people alive on Earth now than have ever lived before total (as far as we know from recorded history) so where are the souls coming from? As far as incarnating in groups there's a whole bunch of theories in new age circles and here on the thread I started awhile back about the "indigo children" especially pertaining to this statement below:
Edward Mason wrote
"And I've met people who felt they were rebel angels come into the human line for purposes of eventual transcendence of their state."
I would say that describes me mostly but the transcendence is not about me alone! It's my Will to transcend but to lead by example triggering a higher vibration in all carbon based lifeforms through their interconnectivity known as the hundredth monkey theory.. As far as "soul groups" I personally have a handful of friends I feel I've known for thousands of years and have a bond with tighter than blood could ever be. This is a mutual feeling that was present instantly if not anticipated weeks before meeting this time round...
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93
H.P.Blavatsky, in her 'Isis Unveiled', discusses this issue at length in Book I, on pages 302-317 - but, in short, she states that a mineral becomes vegetable, a vegetable becomes an animal, an animal becomes a man & a man become an Angel or 'Dhyani Chohan' etc.
I believe there is a NeoPlatonic aphorism that is basically the same but ends in 'a man becomes a planet & a planet becomes a sun'...Plotinus discusses the idea in his Enneads.93 93/93
616
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If an animal becomes a man then that might help to explain the drastic leap in population. Statistically there are more pets in the home now than there have ever been. Maybe we are sort of 'raising' them to our level by placing them in our vicinity...there are more livestock now also. I seem to remember reading something of a Gnostic idea stating that by eating animals we are absorbing & thus raising their sparks of Light to a higher plane to reincarnate on...hmmm
L.Lazuli
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Lapis 93!
"I seem to remember reading something of a Gnostic idea stating that by eating animals we are absorbing & thus raising their sparks of Light to a higher plane to reincarnate on...hmmm
"... The Holy Chao?
So there's more animals being bred for food or novelty than the amount of species becoming extinct each day?! Then the bible must be right with "the lord is our shepherd and we are His sheep."
However my cat is way closer to a zen master than I may ever be I do believe and 'Johnathon Livingston Seagull' evolved by mastering the art of diving out of the sky. So it was a fictional story probably but there was something in it that felt like the same kind of truth I recognize as a part of my soul! Deny, disagree, debate, or unite it matters not in the least to me ultimately except to challenge me to know that part more deeply.
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@Lapis said
"I seem to remember reading something of a Gnostic idea stating that by eating animals we are absorbing & thus raising their sparks of Light to a higher plane to reincarnate on...hmmm"
Wouldn't the angels then benefit from doing the same to us?
Kind of casts the whole Lovecraftian thing in a new light, doesn't it...?
Cthulhu fhtagn!
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@Steven Cranmer said
"Wouldn't the angels then benefit from doing the same to us?
Kind of casts the whole Lovecraftian thing in a new light, doesn't it...?
Cthulhu fhtagn!"
That is absolutely terrifying! -
@Steven Cranmer said
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@Lapis said
"I seem to remember reading something of a Gnostic idea stating that by eating animals we are absorbing & thus raising their sparks of Light to a higher plane to reincarnate on...hmmm"Wouldn't the angels then benefit from doing the same to us?
Kind of casts the whole Lovecraftian thing in a new light, doesn't it...?
Cthulhu fhtagn!"
Yeah, I don't know if the judge will accept my claim that I'm an angel as a defense for cannibalism.
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Reminds me of Gurdjieff's declaration that humans are 'food for the moon'...
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@KRVB MMShCh said
"Reminds me of Gurdjieff's declaration that humans are 'food for the moon'..."
Zealators eating Probationers is absolutely uncalled for!
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93,
Okay, so we have some support for the idea of elementals - and possibly Zen-minded cats - moving into human incarnation. But nobody accepts or supports the notion of the shards-of-universal-consciousness we call angels doing the same thing.Or are there simply a few shy angels lurking in the background, unwilling to declare themselves?
93 93/93,
EM
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@Edward Mason said
"93,
Okay, so we have some support for the idea of elementals - and possibly Zen-minded cats - moving into human incarnation. But nobody accepts or supports the notion of the shards-of-universal-consciousness we call angels doing the same thing.Or are there simply a few shy angels lurking in the background, unwilling to declare themselves?
93 93/93,
EM"
"I behold a small dark orb, wheeling in an abyss of infinite space. It is minute among a myriad vast ones, dark amid a myriad bright ones.
I who comprehend in myself all the vast and the minute, all the bright and the dark, have mitigated the brilliance of mine unutterable splendour, sending forth V.V.V.V.V. as a ray of my light, as a messenger unto that small dark orb.
Then V.V.V.V.V. taketh up the word, and sayeth:
Men and women of the Earth, to you am I come from the Ages beyond the Ages, from the Space beyond your vision; and I bring to you these words." - Liber Porta Lucis:1-4 -
What would an angel get by going into a lower form? It would be like us trying to become an elemental. Only reason would be to somehow help us lower beings but they could do that without actually incarnating into matter.
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David, 93,
Traditional western teaching is that angels, while potent on their own planes, are without the power to evolve. There are various legends about certain angels being jealous of Adam because he was intended to rise high in the cosmic scheme. <i>Paradise Lost</i> centers around this notion.
Humans have choice, or a broader range of choice than angels do, though opting to incarnate is a choice, obviously. So, while angels may be splendid critters, they have limited "career possibilities." There's an implication in several traditions that essentially they are luminous bureaucrats. We, in the ultimate scheme of things, have far more potential.
Hence the temptation to drop the wings and put on flesh.
93 93/93,
EM
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I've known several people that I've been sure were in their first human incarnation"
On the basis of what?
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Edward Mason said
"My question is, to what extent may such entry into the stream of human incarnation still be happening? Do angels still hop into corporeal existence at times? "I've known several people that I've been sure were in their first human incarnation - the prior one having been some variety of Elemental. (In a few cases, the particular form was likely an animal rather than the immaterial kind.)"
No offense, but bullshit. How could you ever possibly know this without huge amounts of doubt?
There are innumerable arguments against reincarnation (like the billions ofh umans that exist now compared to thousands & millions in past millenia). Aside from this, if you destroy the brain, all functions ofy our thinkign are destroyed, so basically anything you think of 'you' CANT exist beyond the material body. Thelemic holy books say nothing about reincarnation and in fact say that we dissolve into the infinite in death. Crowley mentions reincarnation a lot but even in Liber Aleph he makes the warning of something like "of this, I do not say 'this is Truth'."
Its not possible to prove or disprove this comprehensively. What do you gain in believing this? What reasons do you have for thinking that any quality is NOT tied ot the brain and not demolished in, say, a stroke or brain lesion or physical death?
IAO131
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@Edward Mason said
"Okay, so we have some support for the idea of elementals - and possibly Zen-minded cats - moving into human incarnation. But nobody accepts or supports the notion of the shards-of-universal-consciousness we call angels doing the same thing. "
There are Qabalistic traditions making the angels quite distinct from the evolutionary pattern of humans. The teaching is that humans, at present evolution, are less than the angels, but are destined to evolve beyond them; and that angels (other than occasional weekend frolics and the like) will never incarnate as humans.
I don't know if all of that is literally true, but it's the traditional teaching and worth consideration.
