Clarification on Dragon Asana
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I have been exploring the basic asana's, and am curious about the position of the toes in the dragon asana. Are they:
- facing forward, as if I am in a normal crouch
- somehow 'curled' backwards, as if I was in a normal crouch but decided to curl the toes back
- facing backwards, because the tops of my feet are flat on the ground, and I'm I'm sitting directly on my heels
???
I'm sure that one of you more experienced types can give me some advice. Please feel free to ask for clarification if I'm not being clear. I have a copy of Book 4, but I'm having trouble making out the demonstration.
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@Michael Gorsuch said
"I have been exploring the basic asana's, and am curious about the position of the toes in the dragon asana. Are they:
- facing forward, as if I am in a normal crouch
- somehow 'curled' backwards, as if I was in a normal crouch but decided to curl the toes back
- facing backwards, because the tops of my feet are flat on the ground, and I'm I'm sitting directly on my heels
???
I'm sure that one of you more experienced types can give me some advice. Please feel free to ask for clarification if I'm not being clear. I have a copy of Book 4, but I'm having trouble making out the demonstration."
#3.
Your knees and the tops of your ankles should be touching the floor with your buttocks on your heels.
I personally recommend the God asana because many westerners' bodies are already relatively comfortable in this position.
IAO131
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The Dragon is just like the Japanese Seiza.Toes facing away from your body,and toenails on the floor.Do a google search on seiza and you will get some some better pictures than the one in Book 4.I have been practicing the Dragon position daily for the last seven months and am finally on the road to success.
When I first started with it I experienced crushing pain in my heels.This lasted a few months.The heel pain was overcome and then it became hamstring pain towards the end of the session.Now I dont feel any pain at all.
It took me a while to figure out the exact placement of my heels.This is one of the most important parts.If the heels are not locked into the butt correctly, the position will not be balanced and you will feel pain.I also experimented with the spacing between my knees.I keep my knees about three fists apart.I have a long torso so this wider spacing acts like a tripod and keeps me balanced.
Hand placement on the thighs was also an issue.When my hands were placed in the middle of my thighs my left arm would become numb.I have to slightly angle my arms to keep the blood flowing.After I had success with the hand position I traced my hands onto my meditation pants so I could have exact hand placement every time.
It has been a very frustrating experience,but I can finally see results.
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@Aum418 said
"I personally recommend the God asana because many westerners' bodies are already relatively comfortable in this position."
I thought the whole point of the Asana practice as outlined in Book 4 was to be uncomfortable and work through the pain.
I've chosen Half-Lotus, and in about a month of twice a day half-hour sessions, I'm pretty close to feeling 'as if I've stepped in a warm bath,' just not for the whole 1/2 hour.
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@jg93 said
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@Aum418 said
"I personally recommend the God asana because many westerners' bodies are already relatively comfortable in this position."I thought the whole point of the Asana practice as outlined in Book 4 was to be uncomfortable and work through the pain.
I've chosen Half-Lotus, and in about a month of twice a day half-hour sessions, I'm pretty close to feeling 'as if I've stepped in a warm bath,' just not for the whole 1/2 hour."
The purpose of asana is a firm & steady position. Getting through uncomfortable feelings is a means to this. If there is a watchword of asana it is 'persistence.'
IAO131
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
I wondered about this myself for some time, but finally settled on the position agreed upon here!
Questions:
In the photo of crowley in Equinox vol. I, and also of Achad, it appears that a pillow has been used. If proper, this can greatly reduce stress on the ankles by placing knees on the ground but pillow under ankles. Is this cheating?
Is one typically expected to master all of the initial positions (God, Dragon, Ibis, Thunderbolt) or is one enough?
Also, I experience little pain... because both of my legs fall asleep and go numb. This seems like it would be typical, but no one has mentioned it, so I thought I would. I thought for a long time that flexing the legs while sitting (it is stated that the body should be flexed for long periods of time) would cure this... but attempting this leads to some back pain. Ideas?
Further, I've learned that one must be very careful with heel placement, because sitting with cheeks spread for long periods of time can lead to hemroids. Just a cautionary note.
Love is the law, love under will.
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@jlpugh said
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In the photo of crowley in Equinox vol. I, and also of Achad, it appears that a pillow has been used. If proper, this can greatly reduce stress on the ankles by placing knees on the ground but pillow under ankles. Is this cheating? "Yes, you get bad marks on your score sheet.
No, its not cheating. It only makes your pose quite useless when you dont have that pillow. It seems inconvenient to me to rely on a pillow for your asana.
"Is one typically expected to master all of the initial positions (God, Dragon, Ibis, Thunderbolt) or is one enough? "
Why don't you take a minute to read Liber E where he explains this?
One is fine and is recommended.
"Also, I experience little pain... because both of my legs fall asleep and go numb. This seems like it would be typical, but no one has mentioned it, so I thought I would."
That is called lack of circulation, that could pose problems but not necessarily.
"I thought for a long time that flexing the legs while sitting (it is stated that the body should be flexed for long periods of time) would cure this... but attempting this leads to some back pain. Ideas? "
Flexing your leg muscles during meditation? What kind of meditation are oyu doing? Asana's purpose is to have a firm & steady position so the body doesnt bother you. THe point isnt to fidget around and hurt your back.
"Further, I've learned that one must be very careful with heel placement, because sitting with cheeks spread for long periods of time can lead to hemroids. Just a cautionary note. "
...I'll take it this comes from experience.
IAO131
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Thanks for the info!
Yes, I see your point about the pillow... but then again a chair is required for god asana, so I thought I'd ask.
@Aum418 said
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Why don't you take a minute to read Liber E where he explains this?One is fine and is recommended.
"Good. That is the impression that I had from somewhere, but I'm afriad I don't see it in Liber E. Perhaps in another document?
@Aum418 said
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Flexing your leg muscles during meditation? What kind of meditation are oyu doing? Asana's purpose is to have a firm & steady position so the body doesnt bother you. THe point isnt to fidget around and hurt your back.
"No fidgeting, just sustained flex. Hey, I'm operating without personal instruction here! If AC expects me to meditate while balancing on one leg (in which my leg muscles remain not only tense but also fidgety) seated flexing seems a possibility.
@Aum418 said
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...I'll take it this comes from experience.
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One other thing: My legs are extremely bow legged, such that when my heels are in the perfect position, my big toes overlap. Hopefully, there are no points deduced for this.
Many thanks.
Love is the law, love under will.
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@jlpugh said
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Thanks for the info!
Yes, I see your point about the pillow... but then again a chair is required for god asana, so I thought I'd ask. "
True, which is why I like half-lotus since it works wherever you are on a horizontal surface (assuming you are trying to meditate while on earth).
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Good. That is the impression that I had from somewhere, but I'm afriad I don't see it in Liber E. Perhaps in another document?"My fault: Book 4, Part 1
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No fidgeting, just sustained flex. "No that is almost opposite what you want. Any time your legs flex and hold a muscle contraction you should become aware of it and voluntarily relax it. Asana = relaxed but firm position. That is, your back is straight and you are unmoving but your muscles are not tensed. It takes a while to get your muscles used to your position so I recommend body-scanning and relaxing yourself often at first.
"Hey, I'm operating without personal instruction here! If AC expects me to meditate while balancing on one leg (in which my leg muscles remain not only tense but also fidgety) seated flexing seems a possibility. "
Yea... I wouldn't recommend that one to most people. I say the God asana and Half-lotus or Full-lotus (for the limber) are the best and most all-around useful. Lying down works but it breaks the rule of yoga of having your spine aright for best results.
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One other thing: My legs are extremely bow legged, such that when my heels are in the perfect position, my big toes overlap. Hopefully, there are no points deduced for this. "What matters is a firm but relaxed position of your body so your attention can eventually not be bothered by the body. If the overlap causes an incessant sensation that is distracting, then it isn't useful.
I recommend picking an asana and just sitting, being aware of your body and monitoring your back slackening and your legs flexing/tightening. Perhaps do this while being aware of your in & out breath - its a good way to start meditation.
You'll know when you're 'getting it' when you stop paying attention to the feelings in your body for longer and longer periods, and also things stop distracting you as much.
Crowley recommends being motionless for an hour before moving on, but practicing dharana also helps deepen asana so really you shouldn't wait that long before you start focused awareness/concentration exercises like those in Liber E. Focusing on your breath is actually a class of these exercises but tied into your body awareness too so it is a good starter.
IAO131
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@jlpugh said
"Also, I experience little pain... because both of my legs fall asleep and go numb. This seems like it would be typical, but no one has mentioned it, so I thought I would."
Leg numbness used to be a big problem for me. After about 15 minutes in any kind of cross-legged posture (lotus, half-lotus, hemi-semi-demi-lotus, whatever), my legs would be totally numb; after the session, moving my legs would be very painful, and sometimes I couldn't stand up for several minutes. It made me afraid to meditate for longer periods of time.
When I started practicing the Dragon asana, I had the same problem at first, but it gradually went away. Now the only excuse I have for not practicing for longer periods of time is laziness.
So that's my personal experience. I wish I had some good suggestions for you, but here is all I've got:
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Maybe the problem will just go away after a while. I speculate that over time, I've learned to hold my leg muscles tauter so that I'm not just sitting with all my weight on my feet, and so I'm not blocking blood flow or pinching nerves or whatever it is that causes the numbness.
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Maybe you should wear looser clothing or thinner clothing or something.
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Try slight adjustments in the posture. For a while, I found it easier to modify the Dragon so that my feet were crossed, one over the bottom of the other. I no longer do that, but it seemed to help for a while.
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Try a different posture altogether. You're a Thelemite after all -- sit as thou wilt
The important thing seems to be a stable posture with a straight back.
Steve Hagen, in Meditation Now or Never (which I think is a pretty intimidating title for a Buddhist!) says, "In thirty years of teaching meditation, I've never seen or heard of a single case of gangrene or phlebitis caused by sitting meditation." Whew! Sets your mind at ease, doesn't it?
He says a little numbness is normal but excessive numbness (such as I experienced) is not good. He suggests trying a different position, or using cushions. -
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I used to put my left foot big toe on the right one. That's how I disbalanced my body. Pranayama got harder with the left nostril. I made my feet even but still I felt the disbalance.
Instead of siting like a triangle (knees spread) I tried it straight (btw Crowley's photo shows it straight), the balance got better but after a while I saw I was sitting too much on the left and I couldn't feel the disbalance!
Now I'm doing zen bowing 108 times - it helps to steadily regain balance in my Dragon posture... -
ok, i'm probably wrong but in Liber E i think A.C. says:
" 1. You must learn to sit perfectly still with every muscle tense for long periods."
i thought the point of asana is to master the body so that you control it and dont let it control you.
personally, i sit in the dragon, every muscle as tense as i can, and fully concentrate on my body. this of course makes if fairly difficult, but i think it is the quickest way to become master over ones body.
just my opinion. -
"Tense" is misleading. In a later writing - probably 8 Lectures, but I'm guessing at that - Crowley suggested "braced" was the better word.
The idea is that you are vigilant and actively holding the body in the position; but it isn't (say) an ongoing isometric struggle such as "tense" might imply.
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thanks as always Jim for clearing up things for me.
that will help a lot in my asana practice.
the main idea is still to keep focused on the body and not to give in to the urge to move, to master the body, right?
i never have read eight lectures yet. -
Yes.
Ultimately, the goal is to be able to sit for long periods of time in meditation without the body interfering. The rest (in addition to the advantage of having an indirect training in persistence and will) is just a matter of technique. What one goes through to gain this ability is not exactly how one uses it later - but the initial training is important.
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that is def. what i want to get from it, Jim. i'm trying to take things very slow and master them as best as possible, starting in Liber E. i dont want to rush things for sure. i'm kinda fortunate in a way that it will be some time before i meet my neophyte, as it gives me more time to get the foundations in place. i know that mastery of my body and mind will be essential to my work leadng to conversation with my holy guardian angel, and the great work as a whole. i have been interested in the A' A' for well over a decade now, but just got up the nerve to write them earlier this year. i have been getting some strange effects from asana tho. recently i have noticed that i hop a bit, and feel an intense heat, tho it doesnt cause me to sweat. i'm not sure if these are bad or good signs, and i try to ignore them and just take note of them.
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Those effects, especially at this stage, are probably purely physical.
These, and some similar (and more extreme) phenomena, can be the result of kundalini starting to accelerate. The four traditional phenomena ascribed to pranayama are, in fact, consequent to preliminary kundalini rising (of which pranayama can be a trigger) - but, personally, I got these phenomena more easily from asana. (This likely varies per person.)
Especially the way you've been practicing this until now, this level is probably purely physiological. It's easier to evaluate one's results dispassionately if one first learns to distinguish physical from metaphysical results