The Feast of Tahuti & the Child of the Prophet
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@Jim Eshelman said
"No. It's a confidential paper within the T.'.O.'.T.'. degree named. (And for people in that degree, notice I didn't even say which paper. There are 20 different papers in that degree.)"
Well...the paper aside - can you comment more upon the verse?
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I really think I shouldn't.
And, just to be clear (though I think I was clear before), anything I would say isn't an official answer, a Crowley answer, an "answer from the source," etc. - it's something that was disclosed to me inwardly (with what, to me, was a certainty unshaken in over 20 intervening years) during a very specific mystical experience. So I don't have any guarantee that what I would say would be of any use or relevance to anyone else. It might - or it might not be.
Ah, here's what I can say that might be useful: If I'm correct, then it is a date unique to an individual as an anniversary of a particular event (not one of those events that has a standard name attached to it) - most people wouldn't have had the event (but many have) and, if you haven't had the event then you don't have a date to celebrate so the point is moot. If you have had the event, then you have your own answer.
Sorry to sound so mysterious; I just think that's what I should do on this one. And the last paragraph was quite practical.
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I do not mean to pry - & thank you for the information conveyed thus far - but I am understanding you to be talking about the anniversary of the Knowledge & Conversation of one's Holy Guardian Angel - & unless I'm way off the mark, I don't see what is so secret about that. The mention of Tahuti begs one to think of Chokmah as the abode of one's Angel, which would place the initiate in Binah as a Magister...is there traditionally an air of secrecy surrounding the Birth of the Magister?
L.Lazuli
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@Lapis said
"I do not mean to pry - & thank you for the information conveyed thus far - but I am understanding you to be talking about the anniversary of the Knowledge & Conversation of one's Holy Guardian Angel "
Excellent guess but, no, that's not what I meant. (That's why I added that it isn't an experience that has a standard name.)
But it's (very broadly speaking) a similar kind of event.
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@Lapis said
"Can you tell me what the meaning of this specific Feast is?"
As Jim said, there are no publicized "correct answers" from Crowley out there, but there's been a lot of speculation. A few (unrelated) ideas:
The first month of the ancient Egyptian calendar was named after Thoth, and their "new years day" is identified by some as the Thoth's birthday. However, if you try to find out on what day on our calendar this falls, you get many different answers... I've seen July 20, August 4, and August 6. (This may be related to the annual flooding of the Nile?)
There is one OTO Camp that celebrates this holiday as the anniversary of their founding. An interesting interpretation of the birth of a "Child of the Prophet."
Despite Jim's suggestion that "the Prophet" here need not imply Crowley himself, I wonder if anyone celebrates the birthdays of his biological children. Certainly his first, Nuit Ma Ahathoor etc (see Wikipedia's AC entry for a hilarious spell-check snafu on this name) is of interest regarding the Cairo reception, since (a) she may have been conceived in the Great Pyramid of Giza, and (b) depending on your definition of when life begins, she was the third "person" present (or at least nearby!) during the reception of the Book of the Law.
Finally, someone named "Lux ex Tenebris" (on thelemicstudies.com) suggested that the "Child of the Prophet" could be Liber AL itself. Celebrating the god of writing is quite relevant for this event...
"The rest of the Feasts are pretty clear-cut in their meaning"
Oh, there's a lot of diversity of opinion on these, too!
Steve
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@Steven Cranmer said
"Despite Jim's suggestion that "the Prophet" here need not imply Crowley himself, I wonder if anyone celebrates the birthdays of his biological children. Certainly his first, Nuit Ma Ahathoor etc (see Wikipedia's AC entry for a hilarious spell-check snafu on this name) is of interest regarding the Cairo reception, since (a) she may have been conceived in the Great Pyramid of Giza, and (b) depending on your definition of when life begins, she was the third "person" present (or at least nearby!) during the reception of the Book of the Law."
Is this the child mentioned in III:43?
"Let the Scarlet Woman beware! If pity and compassion and tenderness visit her heart; if she leave my work to toy with old sweetnesses; then shall my vengeance be known. I will slay me her child: I will alienate her heart: I will cast her out from men: as a shrinking and despised harlot shall she crawl through dusk wet streets, and die cold and an-hungered."
@Steven Cranmer said
"Finally, someone named "Lux ex Tenebris" (on thelemicstudies.com) suggested that the "Child of the Prophet" could be Liber AL itself. Celebrating the god of writing is quite relevant for this event..."
...but there is already a feast for this event:
"A feast for the three days of the writing of the Book of the Law." - L. II:38
@Steven Cranmer said
"Oh, there's a lot of diversity of opinion on these, too!
"There shouldn't be. Crowley was quite clear in his new comment what those feasts represented.
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@Lapis said
"Is this the child mentioned in III:43?"
I'd say no. - I interpret those Scarlet Woman verses almost exclusively in terms of consciousness. Read that verse with 'Scarlet Woman' implying Binah/Neshamah, and the Child as the Vav, Tiphereth, etc. (and other, more nuanced meanings) emanating therefrom.
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@Steven Cranmer said
"Oh, there's a lot of diversity of opinion on these, too!"There shouldn't be. Crowley was quite clear in his new comment what those feasts represented."
That doesn't stop opinion
I agree - the others seem quite solid and clear to me.
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@Lapis said
"I am still not understanding the secrecy of it...what could possibly be that taboo?"
It's not an issue of secrecy per se, but rather of discretion.
For example, you may not feel that it's a secret what sexual position you most commonly use with a particular person. On the other hand, you may not wish to post it on a public forum for no particular reason.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Lapis said
"Is this the child mentioned in III:43?"I'd say no. - I interpret those Scarlet Woman verses almost exclusively in terms of consciousness."
These "internal" interpretations have a strong resonance for me, but it's probably important to also keep in mind the more literal interpretations. At least at the writings of the Old and/or New Comments, Crowley did seem to interpret this as a "prophecy" of the death of his and Rose's first child.
@Lapis said
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@Steven Cranmer said
"Oh, there's a lot of diversity of opinion on these, too!"There shouldn't be. Crowley was quite clear in his new comment what those feasts represented."
The interpretations of the scribe do deserve special weight, but never to the exclusion of all others (in my opinion). I guess I was thinking mainly about the assignment of specific elements and times of year to the "rituals of the elements and the feasts of the times," for which there's some variety. Most of the other ones are indeed much clearer.
Also, though, I wonder about other associations that Crowley may have had rattling around in his head, but never wrote down explicitly -- here, I'm thinking of the fact that Eid ul-Adha (sometimes called the "Greater Feast" in Islam) was taking place a few weeks before his Invocation of Horus in 1904.
This darn book has tendrils that go slithering out into so many areas of religion, myth, philosophy, etc... that I sometimes chafe at statements that "the meaning of verse X is obvious." Apologies (for chafing, and for channeling Kenneth Grant there for a second).
Steve
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Which Solstice/Equinox corresponds to which Element? I learned it as Vernal Equinox=Air, Summer Solstice=Fire, Autumnal Equinox=Earth & Winter Solstice=Water...
- but I recently found another source that cited it as Vernal=Fire, Summer=Water, Autumnal=Air & Winter=Earth(which makes little sense to me)...
Which is correct?
L.Lazuli
- but I recently found another source that cited it as Vernal=Fire, Summer=Water, Autumnal=Air & Winter=Earth(which makes little sense to me)...
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@Lapis said
"Which Solstice/Equinox corresponds to which Element? I learned it as Vernal Equinox=Air, Summer Solstice=Fire, Autumnal Equinox=Earth & Winter Solstice=Water...
- but I recently found another source that cited it as Vernal=Fire, Summer=Water, Autumnal=Air & Winter=Earth(which makes little sense to me)...
Which is correct?"
Here's where one of those variations in interpretation comes in. I think both of those are the wrong view because the idea is that all four are to be feasts of the elements (plural), rather than each being the feast of a single element.
Look at the Golden Dawn equinox ceremony. It is easy to see that it is a celebration of all four elements. Similarly, the consecratory ceremonies that the Golden Dawn's Second Order performed on their vault near (but not at) the summer solstice is a ceremony of all four elements. Crowley would have been acutely familiar with these. (In fact, Waite's Fellowship of the Rosy Cross moved the latter ceremony to the summer solstice itself, with a similar and complementary ceremony at winter solstice.)
The A.'.A.'. equinox ceremony, made available to those in the 1=10 grade and higher, continues to be a ritual celebration of all four elements.
- but I recently found another source that cited it as Vernal=Fire, Summer=Water, Autumnal=Air & Winter=Earth(which makes little sense to me)...
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I never gave the line much thought, normally reading it as a celebration of the fruits of wisdom.
Meditating a bit on it now, I was thinking of it as a celebration of words, or the word. As Tahuti was seen as the God of writing, 'words' being viewed as his Prophets ; they 'speak' for him. The child would be the meaning of the words.
It seems to make less sense as I write it down...
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@Uni_Verse said
"I never gave the line much thought, normally reading it as a celebration of the fruits of wisdom..."
Me too, except I thought it was also making a mention of the coming of Crowley's predicted Magick Child (Crowley later claimed that Jones was that prediction made manifest). I have read and heard the phrase many times always thinking that I knew what it meant (A feast for Tahuti and everything that archetype represents, and the Magick Child of the Prophet.). Now I guess I need to give greater pause about its meaning.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Lapis said
"Which Solstice/Equinox corresponds to which Element? I learned it as Vernal Equinox=Air, Summer Solstice=Fire, Autumnal Equinox=Earth & Winter Solstice=Water...- but I recently found another source that cited it as Vernal=Fire, Summer=Water, Autumnal=Air & Winter=Earth(which makes little sense to me)...
Which is correct?"
Here's where one of those variations in interpretation comes in. I think both of those are the wrong view because the idea is that all four are to be feasts of the elements (plural), rather than each being the feast of a single element.
Look at the Golden Dawn equinox ceremony. It is easy to see that it is a celebration of all four elements. Similarly, the consecratory ceremonies that the Golden Dawn's Second Order performed on their vault near (but not at) the summer solstice is a ceremony of all four elements. Crowley would have been acutely familiar with these. (In fact, Waite's Fellowship of the Rosy Cross moved the latter ceremony to the summer solstice itself, with a similar and complementary ceremony at winter solstice.)
The A.'.A.'. equinox ceremony, made available to those in the 1=10 grade and higher, continues to be a ritual celebration of all four elements."
Feasts & Rituals aside, what are the elemental correspondances of the Equinoxes/Solstices?
L.Lazuli
- but I recently found another source that cited it as Vernal=Fire, Summer=Water, Autumnal=Air & Winter=Earth(which makes little sense to me)...
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@Lapis said
"Feasts & Rituals aside, what are the elemental correspondances of the Equinoxes/Solstices?"
The two sets you gave above are two examples. I can think of at least two others that make as much sense. There's no one correct answer, I think...
(1) Your first one (vernal: air, summer: fire, etc.) seems to come from a mostly alchemical progression: hot/wet to hot/dry to cold/dry to cold/wet.
(2) Your second one (vernal: fire, summer: water) comes from associating the cardinal signs that are starting in the tropical zodiac at the times of the 4 events.
(3) One can also associate the fixed signs to the four seasons, since one can argue that the fixed signs are in force at the "peak" times of the seasons. Thus: vernal: earth (Taurus), summer: fire (Leo), autumnal: water (Scorpio), and winter: air (Aquarius).
(4) There is also a "diurnal" system that comes from the microcosmic association of elements to quarters (like in the LBRP). The Sun's "deosil" daily path is linked to its yearly path. Vernal would be east/air, summer would be south/fire, and so on. (Those first two are the same as the alchemical, but the latter two are switched!)
I'm sure that one or another of these are more appropriate for certain workings, certain stages on the initiatory path, etc., than the others. DWTW!
Steve
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Let me bereave all of you of Jim's confusion here & give the day proper of the Feast as 4/7, the birthdate of the magickal child. There is thus a wild 4 day orgy from 4/7-4/10 ever year, where everyone gets shit crazy, & grandmothers get eaten!
TAHVTI = 83, 1019 in Greek is worshipped on 4/7 too for his assosciations with the nature & Will of the magickal child. Why this name instead of Thoth I suppose is in the Grammatometria, etc.
But there is also further indications of the Martiality of this Child, besides the Thothonian. This is brought out in its serial verse number of 105 = 5 x 21 = Fire, & II:39 = 239 = AZRAL, the Angel of Death.
Every Thelemite right now is at War until our Will is made unhindered, & our Word dominant upon Earth: please know this.
I cannot say or reveal more at this time, or here. I will say that I don't accept Jim's AA as particulary true or helpful, & just rather encourage individual Will via Ritual, drugs, sex, yoga, etc. to rise up. Please do not waste your time reading dull & outdated books, this helps no one. I would rather you make me more spears as it were than dying in your rocking chairs. More fighting, less reading. One Christian dead is one less swine on earth. Mwahaha!
Also, I recall Jim saying he never mixes psychedelics with Ritual...wow, that's so virile of you, not; waterlogged stick anyone?! I suppose you would rather rot yourself to a movie, or go to some joke of a club and dance stupidly to some bullshit phony music, etc., etc. To every other sane person, one will find that a low dose of shrooms for instance is an absolute exquisite addition to any Ritual practice. What recreation allows a more sane & balanced energy valve release of the psychedelic quintessence than Ritual/Yoga?! These are sacred substances that should be treated sacredly. Sorry, but it struck me as spineless & not at all what psychedelics should be about. Take note from Jimmy Page, he's the real deal--he snorted it all up then let it all hang out, as so a Great Feast should be constituted!
Until the crowned bird pooping tyrant TVRANNIS TERRIBILIS strikes again,
H.H.H.H.H.
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I think that post speaks for itself.