True Will... How do you put it to use in daily life?
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@Jim Eshelman said
"As an aside, and with acknowledgement that the meanings of "right" and "wrong" present a whole 'nuther layer of the intellectual debate - In context, I think every being does know, or have the capacity to know, what is right in a particular situation. Only personality layering and aberration interfere with this. One of the hallmarks of advancing spirituality is the frequency and reliability with which an individual makes right choices. But, intellectually and out of context, you can't second guess the rider in the saddle."
I agree - I was pointing towards the fact that ANOTHER person could never say a priori whether something was 'right' or someone else's true Will.
"BTW (since you keep bringing it up), I haven't said "stars don't collide" once in this thread. I've said that there is no inherent conflict between any two or more expressions of True Will in the universe."
I'm using the star metaphor.
"To be clearer: In this matter, I'm using the definition of conflict as "a state of disharmony between incompatible or antithetical persons, ideas, or interests." (There is polarization between antithetical elements, but that's an expression of their harmony - the essence of polarizations.)"
Well that sums it up nicely.
"Nope. Nothing static (in any sense of the word that makes sense to me) about the HGA."
I meant: Noun = HGA, Verb = Will. Static as in its a name and Will is dynamic in that its an action. Static smacks of stagnation so its a bad word choice.
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"I see, like the Vision of Adonai in Malkuth? "Kinda, yeah. (This at least distinguishes "Vision of the HGA" from "K&C of the HGA.""
Right - I was simply using the traditional Qabalistic names, referring to hte fact that they even mention this same (or at least similar) doctrine of being aware of before being completely in tune.
"There is at least one place - I spent 10 minutes looking for the quote last night, but couldn't find it (shoulda spent 11!) - where he quite specifically says that you should be able to articulate it in a simple, elegant sentence. "
I seriously doubt he said that. He probably meant a sublime, simple formula like, say, Thelema. (He says 'an expression'... could this not also be a symbol like a Lamen?) I've used 'Growth' in the past as a ruach-reflection of Chiah.
"Now, that sentence isn't going to mean as much to someone else as it means to you, but it is likely to be self-evident to those who know you best. It should summarize, in a concise phrase, the root principle underlying every desire, motivation, nightmare, peak moment, embarassment, etc. of your whole life, and yet entirely explain you to yourself."
Right, I agree. But I think I was getting at the sort of Magus Curse where any kind of Word has its corresponding falsity because of the nature of Language.
Very interesting conversation, Jim. I like concise answers.
IAO131
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@Aum418 said
"I meant: Noun = HGA, Verb = Will. Static as in its a name and Will is dynamic in that its an action. Static smacks of stagnation so its a bad word choice."
Got it. I agree (to the extent that words don't lock us into still more problems!).
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"There is at least one place - I spent 10 minutes looking for the quote last night, but couldn't find it (shoulda spent 11!) - where he quite specifically says that you should be able to articulate it in a simple, elegant sentence. "I seriously doubt he said that. He probably meant a sublime, simple formula like, say, Thelema. (He says 'an expression'... could this not also be a symbol like a Lamen?) I've used 'Growth' in the past as a ruach-reflection of Chiah."
See my "11th minute" follow-up. I'm quite certain he meant something concrete such as his articulation of his own True Will as "To teach the next step." The phrase 'next step' meant something different to him at different times - Initially it meant "To teach the K&C of the HGA," and later, as a Magus, "To promulgate the Law of Thelema." But the core idea behind these specific manifestations remained consistent. (It's also not a bad expression of his Virgo Sun / Aquarius Moon!)
PS - Yes, some people would have other ways of expressing it besides words, though I think Crowley definitely had a concise sentence in mind.
"Right, I agree. But I think I was getting at the sort of Magus Curse where any kind of Word has its corresponding falsity because of the nature of Language."
Yes. But I think you actually mean that variant which is "intellect, which exists as a phenomenon below the Abyss."
I think this is a place where paradox and heroism meet: In bringing any sublime truth down the planes, into manifestation, we're going to degrade it. (That isn't a pejorative, just a description.) So, whether we are trying to enact an Atziluthic impulse in Assiah, or express a sublime and transcendant truth in language, we are going to fuck it up; but we just have to do it anyway. The only alternative is to not bring it down the planes - which is an avoidance of the Great Work. Though it may rip your heart to shreds to grasp the most intimate and sublime TRUTH of yourself and, despite your highest and best efforts, be able only to cast it into an utter profanation when you articulate it, you just have to deal with the shredded meat in your chest. The spiritual virtue is in having genuinely given it your highest and best effort.
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To fill my heart with love and joy, first I got to make a Space
Sit back inside it, and it just reclines and reclines and reclines
The spirit is Ginsberg's moloch who's eyes are a thousand blind windows.
And whose soul is electricity and banks!93 93/93
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@The Lover said
"Your destiny is already set. Fill your heart with love and joy. Sit back and let that spirit take over."
"I want to learn more and more to see as beautiful what is necessary in things; then I shall be one of those who make things beautiful. Amor fati: let that be my love henceforth! I do not want to wage war against what is ugly. I do not want to accuse; I do not even want to accuse those who accuse. Looking away shall be my only negation. And all in all and on the whole: some day I wish to be only a Yes-sayer." -The Gay Science, Friedrich Nietzsche, pt.276
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No one has to remind the lover to remember the beloved, for the lover sees the beloved's face everywhere.
Thy music causeth my soul to dance; in the murmur of the wind I hear Thy flute; the waves of the sea keep the rhythm of my dancing steps. Through the whole of nature I hear Thy music played, my Beloved; my soul while dancing speaketh of its joy in song.
-Hazrat Inayat Khan
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Aum418 said
"I meant: Noun = HGA, Verb = Will. Static as in its a name and Will is dynamic in that its an action. Static smacks of stagnation so its a bad word choice."Got it. I agree (to the extent that words don't lock us into still more problems!).
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"There is at least one place - I spent 10 minutes looking for the quote last night, but couldn't find it (shoulda spent 11!) - where he quite specifically says that you should be able to articulate it in a simple, elegant sentence. "I seriously doubt he said that. He probably meant a sublime, simple formula like, say, Thelema. (He says 'an expression'... could this not also be a symbol like a Lamen?) I've used 'Growth' in the past as a ruach-reflection of Chiah."
See my "11th minute" follow-up. I'm quite certain he meant something concrete such as his articulation of his own True Will as "To teach the next step." The phrase 'next step' meant something different to him at different times - Initially it meant "To teach the K&C of the HGA," and later, as a Magus, "To promulgate the Law of Thelema." But the core idea behind these specific manifestations remained consistent. (It's also not a bad expression of his Virgo Sun / Aquarius Moon!)
PS - Yes, some people would have other ways of expressing it besides words, though I think Crowley definitely had a concise sentence in mind.
"Right, I agree. But I think I was getting at the sort of Magus Curse where any kind of Word has its corresponding falsity because of the nature of Language."
Yes. But I think you actually mean that variant which is "intellect, which exists as a phenomenon below the Abyss."
I think this is a place where paradox and heroism meet: In bringing any sublime truth down the planes, into manifestation, we're going to degrade it. (That isn't a pejorative, just a description.) So, whether we are trying to enact an Atziluthic impulse in Assiah, or express a sublime and transcendant truth in language, we are going to {shag} it up; but we just have to do it anyway. The only alternative is to not bring it down the planes - which is an avoidance of the Great Work. Though it may rip your heart to shreds to grasp the most intimate and sublime TRUTH of yourself and, despite your highest and best efforts, be able only to cast it into an utter profanation when you articulate it, you just have to deal with the shredded meat in your chest. The spiritual virtue is in having genuinely given it your highest and best effort."
The Tunis I believe a simple warning for those on the path...A warning that we may not like what we see when we look inside.....
Vs. 42 Liber AL “Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will.”The process of self analysis involves certain risks.
Reference Pg. 167 **The Law Is For All ** Sorrow appears as the result of any unsuccessful, ill judged struggle.
The sole test of one’s Lordship is to know what our true will is, and to do it.
Beauty and strength, come from doing one’s will.
This statement I think is a sign post of the direction we would be heading in if indeed we are doing our Will....Reference Pg.198-215 "The Law Is For All" We must become aware of our true selves.
"The most common cause of failure in life is ignorance of one’s own True Will, or of the means by which to fulfill that Will." (from Magick, Book 4, p. 127)
How can we percieve to know our Will If we don't know ourself?
vs.46LiberAL “Dost thou fail? Art thou sorry? Is fear in thine heart?”
Eckhart Tolle says in his book "A New Earth" The thought processes are conditioned through thousands and thousands of years of conditioning. And there is dysfunction built into the very structure of our thought processes. This is how the ego arises.
Theorem # 4 Magick In Theory And Practice The first requisite for causing any change is thorough qualitative and quantitative understanding of the conditions.
Theorem # 5 Magick In Theory And Practice The second requisite of causing any change is the practical ability to set in right motion the necessary forces.
Theorem #8 5 Magick In Theory And Practice A man whose conscious will is at odds with his True Will is wasting his strength. He cannot hope to influence his environment efficiently.
Tolle:
No matter how good your intentions are, when you're trapped in the ego, it will always take you into conflict eventually.Theorem #23 Magick In Theory And Practice
Magick is the Science of understanding oneself and one’s conditions. It is the Art of applying that understanding in actions.Eckhart Tolle...I believe speaks directly to this topic in his book "A New Earth"
He tells us, we all have a voice in our head, (a mental dialog). Some of these dialogs come from centuries of experiences, while others come from our families, culture, and other influences. These experiences come with a full-aray of emotions. When we are not conscious, these diologs along with the emotion attached to them take over while you are on auto pilot.
So, If we are to "Do what thou wilt" we must not be on auto piot. We must be awake! Present in the moment.
Tolle, describes how the attachment to these dialogs, and the emotions connected to them, feed the ego. The attachement of past events and feelings have a need to fill and is never saticfied. Every action or reaction to this kind of dialog is a means to an end....To feed the ego..."Most people are so completely identified with the voice in there head and the emotions that accompany them."
Tolle:
"As long as you are unaware of this, you take the thinker to be who you are. This is the egoic mind" ( not the true you) He also says that ,every thought, memory, interpretation, reaction ,and emotion is part of this egoic mind. And is "unconsciousness" spiritually speaking. -
@Jim Eshelman said
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See my "11th minute" follow-up. I'm quite certain he meant something concrete such as his articulation of his own True Will as "To teach the next step." The phrase 'next step' meant something different to him at different times - Initially it meant "To teach the K&C of the HGA," and later, as a Magus, "To promulgate the Law of Thelema." But the core idea behind these specific manifestations remained consistent. (It's also not a bad expression of his Virgo Sun / Aquarius Moon!)
"Wasn't Crowley a Libra Sun?
"Eckhart Tolle says in his book "A New Earth" The thought processes are conditioned through thousands and thousands of years of conditioning. And there is dysfunction built into the very structure of our thought processes. This is how the ego arises. "
That sounds absurdly unempirical and like Buddhism. "Ego" isn't inherently a dysfunction. Once you recognize that its not the king in the country but merely the minister, it is not dysfunctional but quite helpful. The ego rises by the inherent structure of our thought & mind - the 'ahamkara' of Hinduism, or 'ego-making faculty'. It IS possible to eliminate it through both practice and in intellect (saying 'there is thought' rather than 'my thought' etc)
"No matter how good your intentions are, when you're trapped in the ego, it will always take you into conflict eventually. "
Who cares? Conflict isn't bad inherently unless you wish you were a rock or dead - Eckhart Tolle is a buddhist in disguise (a poorly veiled one). You might say that when you are TRAPPED in ego that UNNECESSARY conflict arises but if you understand the true place of ego in the hierarchy of one's Self, then your will can proceed in a less impeded fashion. Eckhart Tolle's philosophy is not coterminous with Thelema.
"So, If we are to "Do what thou wilt" we must not be on auto piot. We must be awake! Present in the moment. "
"reams are imperfections of sleep; even so is con-
sciousness the imperfection of waking.
Dreams are impurities in the circulation of the blood;
even so is consciousness a disorder of life.
Dreams are without proportion, without good
sense, without truth; so also is consciousness.
Awake from dream, the truth is known: awake
from waking, the Truth is - The Unknown."In a sense, 'auto-pilot' is the true Unconsciousness which drives all things
"Consciousness is a symptom of disease.
All that moves well moves without will.
All skillfulness, all strain, all intention is contrary to
ease.
Practise a thousand times, and it becomes difficult;
a thousand thousand, and it becomes easy; a
thousand thousand times a thousand thousand,
and it is no longer Thou that doeth it, but It that
doeth itself through thee. Not until then is that
which is done well done.
Thus spoke FRATER PERDURABO as he leapt
from rock to rock of the moraine without ever
casting his eyes upon the ground."(both quotes from Book of Lies)
IAO131
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@Aum418 said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"(It's also not a bad expression of his Virgo Sun / Aquarius Moon!)"Wasn't Crowley a Libra Sun?"
Not in the real (i.e., Sidereal) zodiac. If you're not familiar with this, see: olunars.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Aum418 said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"(It's also not a bad expression of his Virgo Sun / Aquarius Moon!)"Wasn't Crowley a Libra Sun?"
Not in the real (i.e., Sidereal) zodiac. If you're not familiar with this, see: olunars.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2"
Oh I see
IAO131
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I am a bit confused about how Crowleys astrology figures into this topic...Jim...perhaps you could explain this for me....
Also I believe our friend IAO is mistaken about the relativity about what Tolles says about the Ego...
I have just finished reading this book and found that although the book seems to focus on a healing...it goes right along with I have read in the reguired reading lists of OTO...A.A...etc...
perhaps **Jim **you would add your thoughts about this...
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@frzzlmom said
"I am a bit confused about how Crowleys astrology figures into this topic...Jim...perhaps you could explain this for me...."
The explanation is... It doesn't figure in. It's irrelevant to the subject. Crowley, like everyone in the West of his generation, was stuck in the Tropical zodiac delusion. The core proofs and discoveries for the Sidereal zodiac didn't start emerging until a couple of years before Crowley's death.
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93,
Can anyone tell me if I am remembering this right? I read a document on a website that I now can't locate that was attributed to Crowley, and that spelled out his vision for an ideal Thelemic society.
In it, he explained his notion of the slave race being a perfectly well-fed and industrious group kept under control by the more enlightened. I believe he used the phrase, "let them have their mutton." Or something to that effect. He further argued that the state should try to determine the true Will of children by a variety of means, including analysis of their birth charts.
I remember the background of the website was black, which irritated me. Anyway, does anyone have any idea what this document was? If it was real, how, if at all, does it relate to astrology and true Will?
love=law
- C
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This is very interesting....I can't imagine Crowley saying something like that....How could it be possible for some one else to really know the True Will of another since no two points of view can be exacly the same?
@ThatNarrowFellow said
"93,
Can anyone tell me if I am remembering this right? I read a document on a website that I now can't locate that was attributed to Crowley, and that spelled out his vision for an ideal Thelemic society.
In it, he explained his notion of the slave race being a perfectly well-fed and industrious group kept under control by the more enlightened. I believe he used the phrase, "let them have their mutton." Or something to that effect. He further argued that the state should try to determine the true Will of children by a variety of means, including analysis of their birth charts.
I remember the background of the website was black, which irritated me. Anyway, does anyone have any idea what this document was? If it was real, how, if at all, does it relate to astrology and true Will?
love=law
- C"
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Are you perchance speaking of his fictional work Atlantis?
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Possibly The Scientific Solution of the Problem of Government? It doesn't mention birth charts (or mutton!), but it does discuss how:
"Experts will immediately be appointed to work out, when need arises, the details of the True Will of every individual, and even that of every corporate body whether social or commercial, while a judiciary will arise to determine the equity in the case of apparently conflicting claims."
I wonder, though, if Crowley was just working out the logical implications here of a positive answer to the question: "Can the True Will of person X be determined by person Y?" I don't know if he actually believed the answer to this question is "yes."
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93,
I'm pretty sure I was remembering The Scientific Solution to the Problems of Government, and simply threw in some other stuff that came from other documents. It was years ago that I read it.
Anyway, the real issue I wanted to get as was whether or not the birth chart is useful in determining the true Will, and if so, how?
There's no reason to appeal to Crowley to answer that question, anyway.
love=law
- C
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@ThatNarrowFellow said
"Anyway, the real issue I wanted to get as was whether or not the birth chart is useful in determining the true Will, and if so, how?"
There's no "magic formula" for it. The gist is that the horoscope shows authentic character, and authentic character shows True Will.
Sometimes it seems there is something approaching a formula, but it wold be an overstatement to claim it. In a very substantial majority (80%?) of cases within my knowledge, people who (through deep self-examination and spiritual maturity) found and gave voice to the True Wills have stated it where their Sidereal Sun sign is the verb and their Sidereal Moon sign the predicate nominative. (In possibly all of these cases, and certianly in most of them, the person didn't realize the astrological pattern until after the fact.)
For example, Crowley had a (Sidereal) Virgo Sun and Aquarius Moon - a Mercurial Sun and Uranian Moon. He articulated his True Will as, "To teach the Next Step." (What this 'next step' meant changed over time, but the core articulation remained unchanged.)
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The gist is that the horoscope shows authentic character, and authentic character shows True Will."
I would have thought a horoscope would be more limited in its scope, only showing the mask the soul assumes for one lifetime. I wouldn't expect to find the "life one, individual, and eternal" described in a nativity except very indirectly.
"their Sidereal Sun sign is the verb and their Sidereal Moon sign the predicate nominative."
This is too intriguing not to pester you about. More examples please? Or what might be some verbs and nouns associated with different planets?