True Will... How do you put it to use in daily life?
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@Jim Eshelman said
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See my "11th minute" follow-up. I'm quite certain he meant something concrete such as his articulation of his own True Will as "To teach the next step." The phrase 'next step' meant something different to him at different times - Initially it meant "To teach the K&C of the HGA," and later, as a Magus, "To promulgate the Law of Thelema." But the core idea behind these specific manifestations remained consistent. (It's also not a bad expression of his Virgo Sun / Aquarius Moon!)
"Wasn't Crowley a Libra Sun?
"Eckhart Tolle says in his book "A New Earth" The thought processes are conditioned through thousands and thousands of years of conditioning. And there is dysfunction built into the very structure of our thought processes. This is how the ego arises. "
That sounds absurdly unempirical and like Buddhism. "Ego" isn't inherently a dysfunction. Once you recognize that its not the king in the country but merely the minister, it is not dysfunctional but quite helpful. The ego rises by the inherent structure of our thought & mind - the 'ahamkara' of Hinduism, or 'ego-making faculty'. It IS possible to eliminate it through both practice and in intellect (saying 'there is thought' rather than 'my thought' etc)
"No matter how good your intentions are, when you're trapped in the ego, it will always take you into conflict eventually. "
Who cares? Conflict isn't bad inherently unless you wish you were a rock or dead - Eckhart Tolle is a buddhist in disguise (a poorly veiled one). You might say that when you are TRAPPED in ego that UNNECESSARY conflict arises but if you understand the true place of ego in the hierarchy of one's Self, then your will can proceed in a less impeded fashion. Eckhart Tolle's philosophy is not coterminous with Thelema.
"So, If we are to "Do what thou wilt" we must not be on auto piot. We must be awake! Present in the moment. "
"reams are imperfections of sleep; even so is con-
sciousness the imperfection of waking.
Dreams are impurities in the circulation of the blood;
even so is consciousness a disorder of life.
Dreams are without proportion, without good
sense, without truth; so also is consciousness.
Awake from dream, the truth is known: awake
from waking, the Truth is - The Unknown."In a sense, 'auto-pilot' is the true Unconsciousness which drives all things
"Consciousness is a symptom of disease.
All that moves well moves without will.
All skillfulness, all strain, all intention is contrary to
ease.
Practise a thousand times, and it becomes difficult;
a thousand thousand, and it becomes easy; a
thousand thousand times a thousand thousand,
and it is no longer Thou that doeth it, but It that
doeth itself through thee. Not until then is that
which is done well done.
Thus spoke FRATER PERDURABO as he leapt
from rock to rock of the moraine without ever
casting his eyes upon the ground."(both quotes from Book of Lies)
IAO131
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@Aum418 said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"(It's also not a bad expression of his Virgo Sun / Aquarius Moon!)"Wasn't Crowley a Libra Sun?"
Not in the real (i.e., Sidereal) zodiac. If you're not familiar with this, see: olunars.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Aum418 said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"(It's also not a bad expression of his Virgo Sun / Aquarius Moon!)"Wasn't Crowley a Libra Sun?"
Not in the real (i.e., Sidereal) zodiac. If you're not familiar with this, see: olunars.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2"
Oh I see
IAO131
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I am a bit confused about how Crowleys astrology figures into this topic...Jim...perhaps you could explain this for me....
Also I believe our friend IAO is mistaken about the relativity about what Tolles says about the Ego...
I have just finished reading this book and found that although the book seems to focus on a healing...it goes right along with I have read in the reguired reading lists of OTO...A.A...etc...
perhaps **Jim **you would add your thoughts about this...
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@frzzlmom said
"I am a bit confused about how Crowleys astrology figures into this topic...Jim...perhaps you could explain this for me...."
The explanation is... It doesn't figure in. It's irrelevant to the subject. Crowley, like everyone in the West of his generation, was stuck in the Tropical zodiac delusion. The core proofs and discoveries for the Sidereal zodiac didn't start emerging until a couple of years before Crowley's death.
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93,
Can anyone tell me if I am remembering this right? I read a document on a website that I now can't locate that was attributed to Crowley, and that spelled out his vision for an ideal Thelemic society.
In it, he explained his notion of the slave race being a perfectly well-fed and industrious group kept under control by the more enlightened. I believe he used the phrase, "let them have their mutton." Or something to that effect. He further argued that the state should try to determine the true Will of children by a variety of means, including analysis of their birth charts.
I remember the background of the website was black, which irritated me. Anyway, does anyone have any idea what this document was? If it was real, how, if at all, does it relate to astrology and true Will?
love=law
- C
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This is very interesting....I can't imagine Crowley saying something like that....How could it be possible for some one else to really know the True Will of another since no two points of view can be exacly the same?
@ThatNarrowFellow said
"93,
Can anyone tell me if I am remembering this right? I read a document on a website that I now can't locate that was attributed to Crowley, and that spelled out his vision for an ideal Thelemic society.
In it, he explained his notion of the slave race being a perfectly well-fed and industrious group kept under control by the more enlightened. I believe he used the phrase, "let them have their mutton." Or something to that effect. He further argued that the state should try to determine the true Will of children by a variety of means, including analysis of their birth charts.
I remember the background of the website was black, which irritated me. Anyway, does anyone have any idea what this document was? If it was real, how, if at all, does it relate to astrology and true Will?
love=law
- C"
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Are you perchance speaking of his fictional work Atlantis?
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Possibly The Scientific Solution of the Problem of Government? It doesn't mention birth charts (or mutton!), but it does discuss how:
"Experts will immediately be appointed to work out, when need arises, the details of the True Will of every individual, and even that of every corporate body whether social or commercial, while a judiciary will arise to determine the equity in the case of apparently conflicting claims."
I wonder, though, if Crowley was just working out the logical implications here of a positive answer to the question: "Can the True Will of person X be determined by person Y?" I don't know if he actually believed the answer to this question is "yes."
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93,
I'm pretty sure I was remembering The Scientific Solution to the Problems of Government, and simply threw in some other stuff that came from other documents. It was years ago that I read it.
Anyway, the real issue I wanted to get as was whether or not the birth chart is useful in determining the true Will, and if so, how?
There's no reason to appeal to Crowley to answer that question, anyway.
love=law
- C
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@ThatNarrowFellow said
"Anyway, the real issue I wanted to get as was whether or not the birth chart is useful in determining the true Will, and if so, how?"
There's no "magic formula" for it. The gist is that the horoscope shows authentic character, and authentic character shows True Will.
Sometimes it seems there is something approaching a formula, but it wold be an overstatement to claim it. In a very substantial majority (80%?) of cases within my knowledge, people who (through deep self-examination and spiritual maturity) found and gave voice to the True Wills have stated it where their Sidereal Sun sign is the verb and their Sidereal Moon sign the predicate nominative. (In possibly all of these cases, and certianly in most of them, the person didn't realize the astrological pattern until after the fact.)
For example, Crowley had a (Sidereal) Virgo Sun and Aquarius Moon - a Mercurial Sun and Uranian Moon. He articulated his True Will as, "To teach the Next Step." (What this 'next step' meant changed over time, but the core articulation remained unchanged.)
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The gist is that the horoscope shows authentic character, and authentic character shows True Will."
I would have thought a horoscope would be more limited in its scope, only showing the mask the soul assumes for one lifetime. I wouldn't expect to find the "life one, individual, and eternal" described in a nativity except very indirectly.
"their Sidereal Sun sign is the verb and their Sidereal Moon sign the predicate nominative."
This is too intriguing not to pester you about. More examples please? Or what might be some verbs and nouns associated with different planets?
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@gmugmble said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The gist is that the horoscope shows authentic character, and authentic character shows True Will."I would have thought a horoscope would be more limited in its scope, only showing the mask the soul assumes for one lifetime. I wouldn't expect to find the "life one, individual, and eternal" described in a nativity except very indirectly."
Me either. And I wasn't including any of that in the definition of True Will that was being discussed here. - Notice I specifically related it to character.
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"their Sidereal Sun sign is the verb and their Sidereal Moon sign the predicate nominative."This is too intriguing not to pester you about. More examples please? Or what might be some verbs and nouns associated with different planets?"
I can't give more examples without compromising people's privacy.