Concers about A.'.A.'. lineages
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I desire studentship within the A.'.A.'. because I believe that I do not currently have the ability to initiate myself beyond a certain level. I require experienced, objective feedback. Now, I understand that there are several different lineages of the A.'.A.'., and the general response to the question "which one is the best one to join?" is "by their fruits shall ye know them."
I would consider the fruits of the A.'.A.'. to be the adepts it produces. This being the case, I have tasted only of the fruits of two particular lineages: Estai's A.'.A.'., and Hymenaeus Alpha's A.'.A.'.. From my experience, the fruits of both trees seem to be equally sweet. And so my question still remains, which one shall I choose? From reading Jim's book, "The Mystical & Magical System of the A.'.A.'.", I gather that there are some minor difference between the way these two lineages operate, but they are minor enough that neither seems obviously better than the other.
So, I shift my criteria of choice: which lineage would be more convenient to join? My situation is this: I live in Toronto, Ontario. I will probably be living here for at least another year and a half, at which point, I will either move to Nova Scotia, or Oregon. Traveling long distances (over 500 miles) for initiations is something I would rather avoid (with the global oil situation, cost of transportation is becoming exorbitantly expensive, and may become prohibitively so within 5 years). So my choice of lineage comes down to the question of which one has tendrils in the areas I'm likely to be living in. Which one has initiation sites in Toronto? Nova Scotia? Oregon? Or nearby those locations?
I suppose if all things were equal, I would choose Estai's lineage because its structure of requirements and initiations seems slightly more flexible than that of the other. Plus, McMurtry's lineage isn't even accepting applications right now.
Anyway, thoughts?
Love is the law, love under will.
personally i think our HGA always leads us where we need to be, and we all have many ppl we learn from. some of these are not in physical bodies. i have no problem with self-initiation, i just dont think that one can do so and lay claim to any degrees not bestowed on you from a person in the group with the authority to do it bestowing that degree on you. i mean the buddha came to his realization after trying many things and meeting many ppl. i'm just babbling though, i need some coffee
lol
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I desire studentship within the A.'.A.'. because I believe that I do not currently have the ability to initiate myself beyond a certain level. I require experienced, objective feedback. Now, I understand that there are several different lineages of the A.'.A.'., and the general response to the question "which one is the best one to join?" is "by their fruits shall ye know them."
I would consider the fruits of the A.'.A.'. to be the adepts it produces. This being the case, I have tasted only of the fruits of two particular lineages: Estai's A.'.A.'., and Hymenaeus Alpha's A.'.A.'.. From my experience, the fruits of both trees seem to be equally sweet. And so my question still remains, which one shall I choose? From reading Jim's book, "The Mystical & Magical System of the A.'.A.'.", I gather that there are some minor difference between the way these two lineages operate, but they are minor enough that neither seems obviously better than the other.
So, I shift my criteria of choice: which lineage would be more convenient to join? My situation is this: I live in Toronto, Ontario. I will probably be living here for at least another year and a half, at which point, I will either move to Nova Scotia, or Oregon. Traveling long distances (over 500 miles) for initiations is something I would rather avoid (with the global oil situation, cost of transportation is becoming exorbitantly expensive, and may become prohibitively so within 5 years). So my choice of lineage comes down to the question of which one has tendrils in the areas I'm likely to be living in. Which one has initiation sites in Toronto? Nova Scotia? Oregon? Or nearby those locations?
I suppose if all things were equal, I would choose Estai's lineage because its structure of requirements and initiations seems slightly more flexible than that of the other. Plus, McMurtry's lineage isn't even accepting applications right now.
Anyway, thoughts?
Love is the law, love under will.
@Edward Mason said
"93,
Sethur wrote:
"I wonder if Buddha or Lao Tze had a "correct lineage"......... "
Lao Tze is hard to pin down, since we have few facts about him, but Siddhartha Gautama was initiated by several teachers, and then did years of advanced practices, according to all accepted versions of his history.
I also think that there is always a further initiator involved at even the highest stages: just not necessarily a being that's still incarnate, or waving physical wands or scepters over the candidate.
I've always had a problem with the notion of self-initiation. Prince Siddhartha could not have produced the Buddha - he could only have prompted himself to go forth and seek. It was Bodhi (or Bodhisattvas) that turned him into the Buddha.93 93/93,
EM"
The essence of Buddhism is, though, that Gautama turned his back on what he had been taught and instead started his own new lineage based on the Third Way, which he didn't learn from anyone. But even if he was relying on those lineages. who started the first one?
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I desire studentship within the A.'.A.'. because I believe that I do not currently have the ability to initiate myself beyond a certain level. I require experienced, objective feedback. Now, I understand that there are several different lineages of the A.'.A.'., and the general response to the question "which one is the best one to join?" is "by their fruits shall ye know them."
I would consider the fruits of the A.'.A.'. to be the adepts it produces. This being the case, I have tasted only of the fruits of two particular lineages: Estai's A.'.A.'., and Hymenaeus Alpha's A.'.A.'.. From my experience, the fruits of both trees seem to be equally sweet. And so my question still remains, which one shall I choose? From reading Jim's book, "The Mystical & Magical System of the A.'.A.'.", I gather that there are some minor difference between the way these two lineages operate, but they are minor enough that neither seems obviously better than the other.
So, I shift my criteria of choice: which lineage would be more convenient to join? My situation is this: I live in Toronto, Ontario. I will probably be living here for at least another year and a half, at which point, I will either move to Nova Scotia, or Oregon. Traveling long distances (over 500 miles) for initiations is something I would rather avoid (with the global oil situation, cost of transportation is becoming exorbitantly expensive, and may become prohibitively so within 5 years). So my choice of lineage comes down to the question of which one has tendrils in the areas I'm likely to be living in. Which one has initiation sites in Toronto? Nova Scotia? Oregon? Or nearby those locations?
I suppose if all things were equal, I would choose Estai's lineage because its structure of requirements and initiations seems slightly more flexible than that of the other. Plus, McMurtry's lineage isn't even accepting applications right now.
Anyway, thoughts?
Love is the law, love under will.
Sethur, 93,
I think initiation starts each of us on a process that eventually leads us to turn our backs on the ideas and practices we are taught. They are means, though at first they seem to be, or to contain, the end. Initiation kick-starts individuation.
Personally, I see Buddha as having realized the essence of Indian mystical philosophy, though I can see most Indian mystics would have a "Yes, but..." to say in response to that. He just took what he was given and followed it through to its end - or non-end.
I'm not sure that "who" is the right pronoun to apply to the origins of the first lineage(s). The source is in no way personal, or even individual.
That leads to the question of "How then did someone start being the first teacher?" I think the answer to that lies in looking at That which initiates, and which is Itself initiated, rather than the humans who are the mundane vehicle for this.
93 93/93,
EM
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I desire studentship within the A.'.A.'. because I believe that I do not currently have the ability to initiate myself beyond a certain level. I require experienced, objective feedback. Now, I understand that there are several different lineages of the A.'.A.'., and the general response to the question "which one is the best one to join?" is "by their fruits shall ye know them."
I would consider the fruits of the A.'.A.'. to be the adepts it produces. This being the case, I have tasted only of the fruits of two particular lineages: Estai's A.'.A.'., and Hymenaeus Alpha's A.'.A.'.. From my experience, the fruits of both trees seem to be equally sweet. And so my question still remains, which one shall I choose? From reading Jim's book, "The Mystical & Magical System of the A.'.A.'.", I gather that there are some minor difference between the way these two lineages operate, but they are minor enough that neither seems obviously better than the other.
So, I shift my criteria of choice: which lineage would be more convenient to join? My situation is this: I live in Toronto, Ontario. I will probably be living here for at least another year and a half, at which point, I will either move to Nova Scotia, or Oregon. Traveling long distances (over 500 miles) for initiations is something I would rather avoid (with the global oil situation, cost of transportation is becoming exorbitantly expensive, and may become prohibitively so within 5 years). So my choice of lineage comes down to the question of which one has tendrils in the areas I'm likely to be living in. Which one has initiation sites in Toronto? Nova Scotia? Oregon? Or nearby those locations?
I suppose if all things were equal, I would choose Estai's lineage because its structure of requirements and initiations seems slightly more flexible than that of the other. Plus, McMurtry's lineage isn't even accepting applications right now.
Anyway, thoughts?
Love is the law, love under will.
@Steven Cranmer said
"FYI, at the bottom of the Wikipedia page on the A.'.A.'. there is a list of URLs that link to the various lineages. I'm pretty sure the one with the contact address in the OTO publications is the one listed as "Motta via J. Daniel Gunther."
By their websites shall ye know them...
Steve"
That's a misleading statement on Gunther. Gunther was, true, once a student of Motta but he continued to work in the A.'.A.'. with another teacher later after he and Motta had a parting of the ways in the late 70s. You can't call the A.'.A.'. in the OTO publications the Motta OTO as none of the officers of that lineage were in contact with Motta when Motta passed away. The Motta lineage passed onto Ray Eales and David Bersson and a few others in Brazil like Paolo Manini and Euclydes Lacerda de Almeida... take that for what it is worth though.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I desire studentship within the A.'.A.'. because I believe that I do not currently have the ability to initiate myself beyond a certain level. I require experienced, objective feedback. Now, I understand that there are several different lineages of the A.'.A.'., and the general response to the question "which one is the best one to join?" is "by their fruits shall ye know them."
I would consider the fruits of the A.'.A.'. to be the adepts it produces. This being the case, I have tasted only of the fruits of two particular lineages: Estai's A.'.A.'., and Hymenaeus Alpha's A.'.A.'.. From my experience, the fruits of both trees seem to be equally sweet. And so my question still remains, which one shall I choose? From reading Jim's book, "The Mystical & Magical System of the A.'.A.'.", I gather that there are some minor difference between the way these two lineages operate, but they are minor enough that neither seems obviously better than the other.
So, I shift my criteria of choice: which lineage would be more convenient to join? My situation is this: I live in Toronto, Ontario. I will probably be living here for at least another year and a half, at which point, I will either move to Nova Scotia, or Oregon. Traveling long distances (over 500 miles) for initiations is something I would rather avoid (with the global oil situation, cost of transportation is becoming exorbitantly expensive, and may become prohibitively so within 5 years). So my choice of lineage comes down to the question of which one has tendrils in the areas I'm likely to be living in. Which one has initiation sites in Toronto? Nova Scotia? Oregon? Or nearby those locations?
I suppose if all things were equal, I would choose Estai's lineage because its structure of requirements and initiations seems slightly more flexible than that of the other. Plus, McMurtry's lineage isn't even accepting applications right now.
Anyway, thoughts?
Love is the law, love under will.
Wikipedia also now shows a link to an Online site: The Temple of Truth.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I desire studentship within the A.'.A.'. because I believe that I do not currently have the ability to initiate myself beyond a certain level. I require experienced, objective feedback. Now, I understand that there are several different lineages of the A.'.A.'., and the general response to the question "which one is the best one to join?" is "by their fruits shall ye know them."
I would consider the fruits of the A.'.A.'. to be the adepts it produces. This being the case, I have tasted only of the fruits of two particular lineages: Estai's A.'.A.'., and Hymenaeus Alpha's A.'.A.'.. From my experience, the fruits of both trees seem to be equally sweet. And so my question still remains, which one shall I choose? From reading Jim's book, "The Mystical & Magical System of the A.'.A.'.", I gather that there are some minor difference between the way these two lineages operate, but they are minor enough that neither seems obviously better than the other.
So, I shift my criteria of choice: which lineage would be more convenient to join? My situation is this: I live in Toronto, Ontario. I will probably be living here for at least another year and a half, at which point, I will either move to Nova Scotia, or Oregon. Traveling long distances (over 500 miles) for initiations is something I would rather avoid (with the global oil situation, cost of transportation is becoming exorbitantly expensive, and may become prohibitively so within 5 years). So my choice of lineage comes down to the question of which one has tendrils in the areas I'm likely to be living in. Which one has initiation sites in Toronto? Nova Scotia? Oregon? Or nearby those locations?
I suppose if all things were equal, I would choose Estai's lineage because its structure of requirements and initiations seems slightly more flexible than that of the other. Plus, McMurtry's lineage isn't even accepting applications right now.
Anyway, thoughts?
Love is the law, love under will.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I desire studentship within the A.'.A.'. because I believe that I do not currently have the ability to initiate myself beyond a certain level. I require experienced, objective feedback. Now, I understand that there are several different lineages of the A.'.A.'., and the general response to the question "which one is the best one to join?" is "by their fruits shall ye know them."
I would consider the fruits of the A.'.A.'. to be the adepts it produces. This being the case, I have tasted only of the fruits of two particular lineages: Estai's A.'.A.'., and Hymenaeus Alpha's A.'.A.'.. From my experience, the fruits of both trees seem to be equally sweet. And so my question still remains, which one shall I choose? From reading Jim's book, "The Mystical & Magical System of the A.'.A.'.", I gather that there are some minor difference between the way these two lineages operate, but they are minor enough that neither seems obviously better than the other.
So, I shift my criteria of choice: which lineage would be more convenient to join? My situation is this: I live in Toronto, Ontario. I will probably be living here for at least another year and a half, at which point, I will either move to Nova Scotia, or Oregon. Traveling long distances (over 500 miles) for initiations is something I would rather avoid (with the global oil situation, cost of transportation is becoming exorbitantly expensive, and may become prohibitively so within 5 years). So my choice of lineage comes down to the question of which one has tendrils in the areas I'm likely to be living in. Which one has initiation sites in Toronto? Nova Scotia? Oregon? Or nearby those locations?
I suppose if all things were equal, I would choose Estai's lineage because its structure of requirements and initiations seems slightly more flexible than that of the other. Plus, McMurtry's lineage isn't even accepting applications right now.
Anyway, thoughts?
Love is the law, love under will.
@Metzareph said
"The Temple of Truth exist in Second Life as well...?"
"exist" or "exists"?
What "Second Life"?
"as well...?" - As well as what?
Unable to understand message or question, as the case may be. I must need more Qabalastic training.
Anyway, check it out for yourself at: crystal-city.angelfire.com.Helios
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I desire studentship within the A.'.A.'. because I believe that I do not currently have the ability to initiate myself beyond a certain level. I require experienced, objective feedback. Now, I understand that there are several different lineages of the A.'.A.'., and the general response to the question "which one is the best one to join?" is "by their fruits shall ye know them."
I would consider the fruits of the A.'.A.'. to be the adepts it produces. This being the case, I have tasted only of the fruits of two particular lineages: Estai's A.'.A.'., and Hymenaeus Alpha's A.'.A.'.. From my experience, the fruits of both trees seem to be equally sweet. And so my question still remains, which one shall I choose? From reading Jim's book, "The Mystical & Magical System of the A.'.A.'.", I gather that there are some minor difference between the way these two lineages operate, but they are minor enough that neither seems obviously better than the other.
So, I shift my criteria of choice: which lineage would be more convenient to join? My situation is this: I live in Toronto, Ontario. I will probably be living here for at least another year and a half, at which point, I will either move to Nova Scotia, or Oregon. Traveling long distances (over 500 miles) for initiations is something I would rather avoid (with the global oil situation, cost of transportation is becoming exorbitantly expensive, and may become prohibitively so within 5 years). So my choice of lineage comes down to the question of which one has tendrils in the areas I'm likely to be living in. Which one has initiation sites in Toronto? Nova Scotia? Oregon? Or nearby those locations?
I suppose if all things were equal, I would choose Estai's lineage because its structure of requirements and initiations seems slightly more flexible than that of the other. Plus, McMurtry's lineage isn't even accepting applications right now.
Anyway, thoughts?
Love is the law, love under will.
well ... I meant "exists"
Yes, I've been to the website. And I thought it was kind of entertaining, but I don't know if that was the purpose. More like a game.
Second Life is an Internet-based virtual world. There is or was a person here that was using Second Life to "train and admit" people into the "A.'.A.'."
That's why I'm asking.
Just curious. -
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I desire studentship within the A.'.A.'. because I believe that I do not currently have the ability to initiate myself beyond a certain level. I require experienced, objective feedback. Now, I understand that there are several different lineages of the A.'.A.'., and the general response to the question "which one is the best one to join?" is "by their fruits shall ye know them."
I would consider the fruits of the A.'.A.'. to be the adepts it produces. This being the case, I have tasted only of the fruits of two particular lineages: Estai's A.'.A.'., and Hymenaeus Alpha's A.'.A.'.. From my experience, the fruits of both trees seem to be equally sweet. And so my question still remains, which one shall I choose? From reading Jim's book, "The Mystical & Magical System of the A.'.A.'.", I gather that there are some minor difference between the way these two lineages operate, but they are minor enough that neither seems obviously better than the other.
So, I shift my criteria of choice: which lineage would be more convenient to join? My situation is this: I live in Toronto, Ontario. I will probably be living here for at least another year and a half, at which point, I will either move to Nova Scotia, or Oregon. Traveling long distances (over 500 miles) for initiations is something I would rather avoid (with the global oil situation, cost of transportation is becoming exorbitantly expensive, and may become prohibitively so within 5 years). So my choice of lineage comes down to the question of which one has tendrils in the areas I'm likely to be living in. Which one has initiation sites in Toronto? Nova Scotia? Oregon? Or nearby those locations?
I suppose if all things were equal, I would choose Estai's lineage because its structure of requirements and initiations seems slightly more flexible than that of the other. Plus, McMurtry's lineage isn't even accepting applications right now.
Anyway, thoughts?
Love is the law, love under will.
@Metzareph said
"Yes, I've been to the website. And I thought it was kind of entertaining, but I don't know if that was the purpose. More like a game...There is or was a person here that was using Second Life to "train and admit" people into the "A.'.A.'." That's why I'm asking."
Aha, now I understand. I do not need more Qabalah, I need more www knowledge. Anyway, No, we are not associated with Second Life.
Just this morning we received an inquiry for training, and the applicant was referred to the *Temple of Truth *website with the following comments (among others):
"Although the presentation appears to be out of a comic book, and is generally designed for the amusement of advanced initiates, it is also quite serious and all the oaths and details of the path are right there. There are no fees and there is no dictatorship ... There is a lot of humor and sarcasm, but really, it's all the straight stuff! - as you will perceive if you are destined to tread this particular path."
Helios
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I desire studentship within the A.'.A.'. because I believe that I do not currently have the ability to initiate myself beyond a certain level. I require experienced, objective feedback. Now, I understand that there are several different lineages of the A.'.A.'., and the general response to the question "which one is the best one to join?" is "by their fruits shall ye know them."
I would consider the fruits of the A.'.A.'. to be the adepts it produces. This being the case, I have tasted only of the fruits of two particular lineages: Estai's A.'.A.'., and Hymenaeus Alpha's A.'.A.'.. From my experience, the fruits of both trees seem to be equally sweet. And so my question still remains, which one shall I choose? From reading Jim's book, "The Mystical & Magical System of the A.'.A.'.", I gather that there are some minor difference between the way these two lineages operate, but they are minor enough that neither seems obviously better than the other.
So, I shift my criteria of choice: which lineage would be more convenient to join? My situation is this: I live in Toronto, Ontario. I will probably be living here for at least another year and a half, at which point, I will either move to Nova Scotia, or Oregon. Traveling long distances (over 500 miles) for initiations is something I would rather avoid (with the global oil situation, cost of transportation is becoming exorbitantly expensive, and may become prohibitively so within 5 years). So my choice of lineage comes down to the question of which one has tendrils in the areas I'm likely to be living in. Which one has initiation sites in Toronto? Nova Scotia? Oregon? Or nearby those locations?
I suppose if all things were equal, I would choose Estai's lineage because its structure of requirements and initiations seems slightly more flexible than that of the other. Plus, McMurtry's lineage isn't even accepting applications right now.
Anyway, thoughts?
Love is the law, love under will.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
heh... i wondered when somebody was gonna get around to us in this thread...
i'm a member of motta's lineage through the (in)famous david bersson, a.k.a. frater sphinx. lots of people don't like sphinx. me, i love him.
i'm fortunate enough to live in his neighborhood, and as i also have the honor of being a member of (S)OTO i get to see him fairly regularly. let me tell ya something: the rumors Ain't True. some of the things i read online about him are enough to curl anybody's hair - yeah, he's hardcore. yeah, he's on the pillar of severity. no, he's not a loon nor is he a charlatan. gawds... just grab a copy of his "gold coins" from thelema publishing outlet (you can get there from <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.castletower.org">www.castletower.org</a><!-- w -->) and do his sacred ritual of the bull sacrifice a few times if you've got any doubts in THAT direction!
as for convenience... initiation is many things; convenience isn't one of them.
i don't know that much about the lineage that jim here represents, but i do know, just from being on the board here, that jim is a dedicated and sincere themelite who is indeed manifesting supreme the wisdom of the work in his own particular way.
i know quite a bit about the "lineage" that's associated with the caliphate O.T.O., not the least of which is that they don't tend to respond to inquiries. as i understand it (and do correct me if i'm mistaken) their current head honcho is one william breze, who was thrown out of motta's (my) lineage for not bothering with his oath and task over a course of eight years. one thing i do know: you can't just sign up with another lineage - once you're out, you're Out.
i don't represent motta's lineage through frater sphinx by any stretch of the imagination; my attitudes aren't necessarily his attitudes (or those of anybody else in our lineage - shit, there's thousands of us!) and so on, but i -=am=- one example of someone who comes from and dwells within that particular school of thought, for whatever that's worth.
if you want to learn about frater sphinx (david bersson) then learn about him through his own words - <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.castletower.org">www.castletower.org</a><!-- w --> - don't bother trying to get info from his enemies.
if you want to learn about motta's lineage and his school of thought, get a hold of "the commentaries of AL." if you can't get a hold of it, drop me a line; i'll hook you right up.
Love is the law, love under will