Working with Qliphothic Energy's in the later grades.
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Metzareph and luxinhominefactum and Jims comments on some thing in another post that made me think of some thing.
There is a quote Liber Tzaddi that grabs my attention,
- But since one is naturally attracted to the Angel, another to the Demon, let the first strengthen the lower link, the last attach more firmly to the higher
I am curious what workings in Thelema when one does get to the point of working with the "Darker" Qliphothic forces is there?
Is it a reversal of some of the working in Thelema?
I mean this in the final workings in the grade or 5=8 or some thing else,I believe Metzareph said?
PS I really dont mean to make ever post about some thing "Dark" that is restrictive I feel but this did come to mind.
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Hello Seti
@SetiDraconis said
"
Is it a reversal of some of the working in Thelema?"Mmmmmm I don't know what you mean by "reversal"
@SetiDraconis said
"
I mean this in the final workings in the grade or 5=8 or some thing else,I believe Metzareph said?""It's 5=6.
Read (or research) the book The Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage. Look for the one edited by S. Liddell MacGregor Mathers.
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So in "The Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage" this is the context for Qlipothic workings?
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The Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage is divided into three parts:
- Back story on the book
- Attaining K&C with ones HGA
- After having attained K&C, summonining various angels and demons (in their traditional sense).
I do believe it has relevance to that particular quote from Liber Tzaddi like Metz said but I'm not sure where the Qlippoth fits into any of this, unless you're associating demon with Qlippoth - which is kind of "off" IMHO.
And you're confusing Thelema with A.'.A.'. There are no set magickal practices of Thelema (Do what thou wilt) however in the A.'.A.'., a mystical/magickal school which embraces the school of thought of Thelema, has these magickal practices.
I certainly don't have anywhere near the experience of Jim in working the system but IMHO, you work the Qlippoth where you need to. I think the Qlippoth would be a major area of study in the Adeptus Major, 6=5, degree.
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Another way to say it: You don't need to work the Qlippoth. They work you! All you have to do is meet the challenge of what arises.
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@kuniggety said
"The Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage is divided into three parts:
- Back story on the book
- Attaining K&C with ones HGA
- After having attained K&C, summonining various angels and demons (in their traditional sense)."
The Dehn/Guth translation features an entire other section that focuses on spells & folk magick...it falls beween books 1 & 2.
616
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@kuniggety said
" I'm not sure where the Qlippoth fits into any of this, unless you're associating demon with Qlippoth - which is kind of "off" IMHO."
Hello kuniggety,
I guess I should elaborate a bit... Qlippoth just means "shells" as in "empty", but a Hasidic view states that in the process of creation, ten sephiroth were created, each encapsuled by a qliphah and each one of them is governed by a adverse demon with their own servicing legion.
Seti has said that he is a member of this order (DS) and it seems they use the model of the Qlippoth and the Tree of Death.
There are many famous grimoires that deal with demons, the most used is the Lesser Key of Solomon, but IMHO you need to do the "Abramelin Operation" before approaching the grimoires and the Goetia. -
Couldn't agree less. The rituals of the old time are black. one D.N.A. interpretation of this is that "there is no light in them". The grimoires in the form we have them are works from within a Christian worldview in which demons are evil, rather than active spirits in the pre-Christian Greek sense. So best not to use them at all. At best there is a psychological boost, at worst obsession.
Qliphoth are indeed the "shells" discarded during creation, but the inner Cabalistic understanding is that this was not a one-off, it happens every moment, the flow from the en soph into the world via the 10 sephiroth never stops and as each Sephirah refines and shapes this energy, something is discarded - another image than shells is of the sparks from a blacksmith's anvil as a sweapon or tool is being forged, and I prefer this analogy.
At the Equinox of the Gods in 1904 there was a massive shedding of qliphothic energy as the New Aeon came into being, but this is being balanced - hence the rise and fall of the two great dictatorships (USSR and Nazi Germany) - but these are, if you like, "new" Qliphoth for the New Aeon. Whether the old names for them are of any use is one question, but old attitudes and fearful approaches should be forgotten. However, a deep interest in "the darker side of magic" can just be, well, boring for everyone around you. The best way to become a centre of pestilence is to pester everyone about how dark and luciferian you are all the time.
Each "new" qliphah will have some of the attributes of the relevant sephirah, but, like the cast used to make a copy of something, will appear to be the exact reverse of the sephirah - being made in its image - but will be totally dependent on the sephirah for its being and nature, so the idea of an equal and opposite qliphah with the same type of power "in negative" is plain wrong.
As far as I'm concerned, in the process of spiritual attainment in the New Aeon, playing with the qliphah is little more than a hobby for goths.
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@sethur said
"Qliphoth are indeed the "shells" discarded during creation"
Not just during creation. In the microcosm, they are left every time we grow past anything at all - heck, everytime we shed skin cells. (You kinda said that, as I read on.)
"At the Equinox of the Gods in 1904 there was a massive shedding of qliphothic energy as the New Aeon came into being"
And do you work as regularly with those Q'\lippoth as with others?
"As far as I'm concerned, in the process of spiritual attainment in the New Aeon, playing with the qliphah is little more than a hobby for goths."
Well, most of the time I pretty much agree with you on that! (Or: Fill in some other category of ignorant poser.)
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93,
RZK wrote:
"Most so called thelemic systems barely work with the Qliphoth at all, and when they state that they do.. Well, then there is not much to it. The whole point more or less seems to be a way of affirming the position one is already in, a position that one has gained by shutting out the dark side.
"This discussion is now getting just plain silly. Who's going to be first to post: "Nyah-nyah, our God is darker than your God, so there" ?
93 93/93,
EM
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@KRVB MMShCh said
"The Dehn/Guth translation features an entire other section that focuses on spells & folk magick...it falls beween books 1 & 2."
I don't have it but I've read a lot of debate about it online, about it's authenticity. I'm no historian but there are a lot of people out there who seem to feel there are problems with the extra section.
@Metz
I don't really prescribe to the whole good/bad angel/demon view of spirits. I have an attitude moreof the Pre-Christian Greek sense that sethur refers to. That's quite possibly why I don't like "demon" to qlippoth.
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@kuniggety said
"I'm no historian but there are a lot of people out there who seem to feel there are problems with the extra section."
...such as?
616
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@Edward Mason said
"This discussion is now getting just plain silly. Who's going to be first to post: "Nyah-nyah, our God is darker than your God, so there" ?"
T-shirt viewed yesterday, worn by a brother ascending the moutain:
"I'm just wearing black until they come out with something darker."
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Another way to say it: You don't need to work the Qlippoth. They work you! All you have to do is meet the challenge of what arises.
"Jim nailed it,thank you pretty much what I was thinking.
Then I love how so many Thelemites talk about the Qlipthoth and don't even work with it or experienced it.
In the occult experience is every thing not reading it in Theory.
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93,
RZK wrote:
"I think you have misunderstood my point. Please re-read."
I just re-read your post. I feel I do understand your point. I just don't think you see the opposite viewpoint of the people who disagree. Which wouldn't matter at all, since you've made your own choice of path, and don't need others' approval or comprehension for that.
But you are portraying other Thelemites as (in effect) being closed or narrow minded. And that's not necessarily true at all.
93 93/93,
EM
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@rzk said
"There is nothing wrong with the Right Hand Path."
Was often is left to wonder, though, if the left hand really knows what the right hand is doing.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Was often is left to wonder, though, if the left hand really knows what the right hand is doing."
"let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth" - Matt. 6:3
616
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@rzk said
"That's the reason why the Left Hand Path works with both the Sephiroth and the Qliphoth, both the right and the left hand."
... therefore the left hand path is "superior"... right?
btw... it is a little misleading to equate the "right hand path" to the "sephiroth" You can follow the ascending path on the sephiroth and still be a left hand path magician. You can work with the qlippoth and still be a right hand path magician. The real scheme of things is the reason why you do those things. That's the real issue. In the end you decide if you keep your ego or let go.
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""... therefore the left hand path is "superior"... right?"
No?
"not really...
In Liber AL vel Legis Chapter I, we also find:
*"50. There is a word to say about the Hierophantic task. Behold! there are three ordeals in one, and it may be given in three ways. The gross must pass through fire; let the fine be tried in intellect, and the lofty chosen ones in the highest. Thus ye have star & star, system & system; let not one know well the other!" *
"52. If this be not aright; if ye confound the space-marks, saying:* They are one; or saying, They are many**; if the ritual be not ever unto me: then expect the direful judgments of Ra Hoor Khuit!"*
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Why anyone would want to "work" the qlippoth is beyond me.
I've been pondering the nature of qlippothic energies in the context of understanding initiation and ordeals as a process of metamorphosis and evolution.
My question is whether qlippoth arise from too much softness or hardness.
Mathers suggests the qlippoth result from an imbalance toward the Pillar of Mercy. Does that mean the aspirant attracts qlippothic energies due to being too open, naive and merciful - i.e. a lack of understanding and severity? Or does the aspirant attract qlippothic energies as a natural adjustment from being too severe, judgemental and hurtful - i.e. a lack of mercy and compassion toward others?
Qlippoth are described as discarded husks or shells. Like the dead skin of a snake or exoskeleton of a cicada. This traditional description does not seem accurate. Based on examples in Nature, I suspect husks and shells are what result from coming in contact with toxic qlippothic energies and subsequently discarded when a new, more mature self emerges from the former identity. That would suggest two conclusions: first, qlippothic energies are not going away anytime soon - like sweeping dead skin into a dustbin; second, these energies have a function to test whether the aspirant has evolved to the next level.
Any opinions?