Leaping Laughter Lodge Ordo Templi Orientis
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"I am no interested in the sex magick of the O.T.O. and honestly I just do want to join the AA."
The A.'.A.'. is not designed as group work. Is solitary work with an assigned teacher...
If the OTO is what you want, then go ahead... just make sure it is what you want.
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@h3fall3n777 said
"I live in Wisconsin... the idea of taking off for sunny Cali just isn't a reality anymore. "
Relocation obviously isn't a realistic choice for you right now. But periodic visitation to Toronto, New York, or the West Coast might serve you.
"I read an article where Jim stated that the O.T.O. was a social club (not a quote), than it had sacrificed the spiritual growth of the new aeon and was a fraternity (again, not quotes)."
You are reading (and, as you said, paraphrasing) contents of what I thought was a private email - similar to a private conversation - decades ago. I would never have made such a statement for public purpose, but the recipient has "made hay" with it for his own agenda in the time since.
I wouldn't retract it, but I will say that it has a different meaning in the context of the back-and-forth email conversation for which it was written, then in the context of the web sites where it has been excerpted and used for a particular agenda.
"If I wanted that, I would join the Masons, who actually have a Lodge in the City I live in."
O.T.O., at its best, is in fact Thelemic-themed Freemasonry. (I say that with the highest respect for Freemasonry.)
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Thank you for your insight Jim. I hope I didn't offend you with the paraphrasing of a personal email (I didn't know it was an email, or personal). I had googled you one night and was reading these webpages that talked about you and the O.T.O. My apologies. I will meditate on all of yours and the others' replies.
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I'm not a member of Aspirants to Light, but you can add it to your list of things to consider...
I've heard they are doing great work...Jim Eshelman wrote:
"Another approach which is much more liberal is to start an Aspirants to Light lodge ( <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.aspirantstolight.org">www.aspirantstolight.org</a><!-- w --> ) This three-degree optional preliminary system has really remarkable rituals, and gives people the chance to get used to group work, pass through ceremonial admittance and advancement, optionally take up some of the same type of work they'd be doing in the Temple, etc. It's a different system, but highly compatible. - How this approach works: First, screening is much simpler and relatively automatic. The person would only have to show up for the occasions of degree admittance (three times), but would be expected to stay in touch. This would take a minimum of about 12-24 months to cover these degrees, during which time we'd hopefully get to know the individual pretty well. After certain steps as a III°, it would only take finding two other interested parties for us to set an A.L. lodge in motion in an area, and the initial demands would be much less than those on a T.'.O.'.T.'. Temple. - If interest and participation (meaning, a sufficient number of people both interested and demonstrating a willingness to meet and work together, actually do personal work, etc.), then this could bridge into the establishment of a T.'.O.'.T.'. body. In the meantime, much that people are seeking would already be available to them."
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For now I'll stick with the B.O.T.A. for one more month. I've meditated on it, and I am going to make my way to a Gnostic Mass in Sept. and see if I can have a converation with someone afterwords. Hopefully it will provide what I need to grow spiritually, while I await the opportunity in life to be able to move on to the AA.
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th3fall3n777 I'm in the exact same boat pretty much. I was actually thinking of starting up the BOTA, but perhaps I'll email Jim and get some other ideas as I still make it out to LA about once a year.
Thanks for the thread and the honesty from everyone, it's helped me immensely.
JG
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I did contact the O.T.O. and I am meditating on their response, which was:
"Thanks for your message, I'm not sure that I can addresses all of your comments but I can clarify a couple of points about O.T.O. according to my own experience.
Yes, O.T.O. is a fraternal organization, that is true, and the activities of
social and personal interaction and conduct and mutual aid and support are all intrinsic aspects of the work of the Order. For example we might even offer public rituals, or a dance or party or other social event. As to
whether that has much or little to do with the Great Work - that's really up
to you. A group like O.T.O. can provide aid and assistance through
opportunities such as initiation, meeting other Thelemits, and religious
activity in the form of the the EGC, but the Great Work itself is and has
always been a result of the concerted efforts of the individual.Some people are in both, some are in one or the other. I don't think either group requires you to have any particular relation with the other ones. Some people write to the address in the back of the Equinox and have good luck with that. Others strike out in different directions, it's really up to you. (in response to their relationship with the A.'.A.'.)
O.T.O. encourages it's membership to pursue the Great Work however they see fit. Some O.T.O. members take up other Orders such as the ones you've mentioned, but it isn't required or even taken particular notice of. While O.T.O. doesn't take particular notice about it's members involvement with other groups or Order, some Orders don't consider membership in O.T.O. compatible with them, so you may want to inquire to other Orders you want to be involved with as to their particular policies regarding O.T.O. As far as I know, the only groups O.T.O. finds in conflict with O.T.O. are spurious groups that claim to be the O.T.O. when in fact they aren't.
"
So they answered my questions, but at the same time didn't answer my main question. I understand that the A.'.A.'. is a soliditary pursuit, but it was also my understanding that, for instance, Jim, feels that group work is an integral part of the A.'.A.'. experience. But the O.T.O. does offer workshops and group rituals, so I suppose that answers my question itself.
That only leaves the final question about the superstitions that surround the O.T.O. about the 9th degree and onwards. Which I'm going to start a new thread on.
L.V.X.
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I would just like to mention that the nearest OTO body to me has at least one initiate of the AA. It may be a good way to get further acquainted. As for my personal experience with the OTO, it's been good. I live in a city without a body, but we are trying to change that. I think the main ways I've benefited though are exoteric.
-Kenneth
93, 93/93 -
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
yeah, yeah, i know, broken record....
the caliphate OTO is, and i do speak from experience, much as described above. that's all i'm going to say because this isn't my board.
however, they are by far from the only group that works along thelemic lines. the fraternal order that i'm involved with, typically known as the Society Ordo Temple Orientis, is very different than the caliphate in a number of ways. i'm not going to go into it in any great detail, but i will say that in my own local body, every member save two is a member of A.'.A.'. and there are quite a few of us in the lodge.
there are other bodies that i know of that are hardcore thelemic magickal orders as well, notably H.O.O.R. (the holy order of ra-hoor-kuit) and L.I.L. (the lamp of illimitable light).
the caliph isn't the only show in town, folks. in my own experience, it wasn't the one for me. whether it's the one for you or not is dependant on the nature of your star. if you want more experiences like the ones you described, by all means, join up with them! if you're looking for something a little different, check out the society. hell, it works for me.
<!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.castletower.org">www.castletower.org</a><!-- w -->
(i swear i'm not here just to shill for the society; it just seems to be coming up an awful lot in conversation
)Love is the law, love under will
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If you are looking for Fraternal/ Sororal congregation, etc. Then the O.T.O. is basically a decent starting point.
There are many people in the O.T.O. that are of the A.'.A.'. as well.
There is an introductory degree which is entitled "Minerval".
Basically the ego is attracted to the Solar System.
You have no real obligations, ot ties to the order.
It is a good way to get a feel, and decide on whether to move forward.Anything after 1st degree is binding to the Order for the rest of your life.
It is based off of Masonic Rituals, Allegory and Symbolism, with a re-vamped Thelemic twist to the M.'.M.'.M.'. degrees.
After the 6th degree, it is more instructional than Initiation oriented.
Keep in mind that the central 'Secret' of the O.T.O.' is within the Gnostic mass.If you are looking for 'Outer affiliation', I feel that it is a good source.
For a more inner, more studious, and disciplined way, I suggest the RR et AC. (Cor Lucus, C.O.T./ T.O.T. and eventually A.'.A.'.)
I hope I have clarified some things, and have not confused you.
I also wish you the best in all of your endeavors.93 93/93.'.
James
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93,
"O.T.O. encourages it's membership to pursue the Great Work however they see fit."
One of the last times I was physically around other order members, one was as close to buddhist as you get without the title, one was from wicca, I was talking at length about Jung with another, some other guy was muttering about satan, lots of others were pretty ordinary magickians and metaphysical sorts, and I was doing the rosary. [Probably in small part in defiance of what I see as a lot of taking the black-clad-power thing way too seriously. I get a lot more drawn to Archangel Michael in particular every time I am around fraters -- hard to figure -- something in that energy must spark it.] When they say it's up to you, it really IS.
On the other hand, there is more "academic information" in Regardie's book on the Golden Dawn then I can imagine ever getting a fraction of from most the few OTO groups I've heard of (I am not present with an active lodge though so I am probably not fit to comment there). I think people who really want "education" might consider a different order, as OTO's strength in allowing you to be-your-own-man (or woman) is also a little bit of 'left to tread water' if you don't live near a lodge (and/or of people you relate to).
Unless you really are DRAWN to OTO. I'd never heard of it until I dreamed it and I was completely freaked out by the fact it existed at all let alone was... uh, weird. Some things come from the inside as "givens already", not external ideas. So maybe you should pray about it, for guidance on that.
"While O.T.O. doesn't take particular notice about it's members involvement with other groups or Order, some Orders don't consider membership in O.T.O. compatible with them, so you may want to inquire to other Orders you want to be involved with as to their particular policies regarding O.T.O. As far as I know, the only groups O.T.O. finds in conflict with O.T.O. are spurious groups that claim to be the O.T.O. when in fact they aren't"
I am a member of two churches. One is a woman-centric Marian-centered catholic-metaphysical church of energy-healers. (Insert ridiculous amounts of "love and light" here.) One is the OTO which is -- uh, probably the polar opposite of that (at least in practice). I may be spiritually schizophrenic but I don't have any trouble reconciling these. I asked my Bishop in OTO before being ordained in the latter via my personal shamanic teacher for some years, and it was pretty much, well any church that doesn't have a problem or requirement contrary to the order, is up to you.
I mean it's YOUR vow; your will, your path. Muck it up or don't, but either way the result is yours.
I humbly suggest that whatever group someone chooses to associate with, you don't enter it with "hello I really want to be elsewhere but you were the only thing around instead".
There really isn't any need for you to announce your eventual plans to every person you meet or do ritual with, unless you just want to. I don't tell the Lutherans who think I sing a lovely alto that I do a lot of solo sex magick or talk to all kinds of entities/identities "in my head." I did once attempt to share with some sisters in church B something Crowley wrote about treating women like dogs (how it totally pissed me off for about 10 minutes and then I concluded he might be right and it MADE ME CRY dammit). They didn't have nearly the appreciation for this insight [go figure] and it was a good lesson that some separate lines of inquiry are best kept separate. 93 93/93,
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@RedCair said
"I did once attempt to share with some sisters in church B something Crowley wrote about treating women like dogs (how it totally {nassed} me off for about 10 minutes and then I concluded he might be right and it MADE ME CRY dammit). They didn't have nearly the appreciation for this insight [go figure] and it was a good lesson that some separate lines of inquiry are best kept separate."
Just out of curiosity (and I don't want to derail this thread), which quote and context are you're referring to?
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93, I'm sorry, I don't remember, it was something I had come across at the time ('94 I believe) when I was reading a great deal of his work. (At least at the time I recalled it as something recently read from him.) I am prone to remember 'impactive concepts' from what I read and sometimes author, but not titles or great deal of info. Apologies. There are people here super familiar with his work who probably have some idea. (P.S. But really, my fave AC line is, "I will spear thee, my little grey gods!" I always wondered if this related to aliens and that Aiwass looks suspiciously like... ah, never mind.) 93 93/93 RC
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O.T.O. is a mystical (not magickal) order. It has a defferent system than most magickal orders you mentioned, and that system does not follow the tree of life. It is chakra based. That's why you can not link it to any other system and find apropriate correspondencies.
As far as being a social club, I agree that it is a place to meet and converse with a lot of differend people with interest in Thelema, Magick, Mysticism etc. However, for a serious student, it is also a very effective system of initiations. Following instructions of each degree would take such student very far, and in completing the first triade such student would be finishing the task of a Neophyte in A.'. A.'. at least. However, there is one catch: O.T.O. does not take exams in its course of studies (with mild exceptions), so such progress would need a lot of self discipline.
Mentioning O.T.O. as some caffe bar you can come and hang out at is a serious mistake. It has a lot to offer to its initiates, however its course of studies is, at least in its first triade, a recomendation rather than an obligation, and you can progress through degrees without a real progress. That's why some people diminish its value, but in the end, isn't self discipline needeed in every system?
A.'. A.'. system is clearer in its demands and it follows the tree of life system, so it is very natural to any Magick oriented student, but without self - discipline it works no better than any other system, it just has noone to hang out with while doing nothing