What is the relationship-OTO initiations and A.'.A.'.
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@rwidner said
"Are the OTO initiations the same for A.'.A.'.? In other words, can OTO be used for A.'.A.'. initiations?"
The initiations rituals of O.T.O. and A.'.A.'. are quite different. There is no overlap of any kind that I can think of at the moment.
There is no intrinsic relationship. Membership in one doesn't confer membership in the other per se. No degree or grade in one confers any degree or grade in the other.
The O.T.O. rituals are based on (very significant rewrites of) the rituals of Freemasonry - particularly the Craft Degrees, (British) Royal Arch, Rose Croix, Knight Templer, etc. The A.'.A.'. rituals for 1=10 (Neophyte) and 2=9 )Zelator) are based on (very significant rewrites of) the Golden Dawn First Order (0=0, Neophyte) and Second Order (5=6, Zelator Adeptus Minor) rituals.
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93
In the lineage i belong to there are only two actual temple initiation ritiuals anyway..OTO has a ritual for every degree.. AA doesn't (at least in my experience)
93, 93/93
INB -
Correct. There is a ceremonial linkage process for Probationer, temple initiations for 1=10 and 2=9, and no further formal initiation documents until the self-initiation instruction at 5=6. (All Middle Pillar, note. The ceremionial component of the others is very brief and almost informal.)
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In response to the original question posted:
The O.T.O. (USA), is based on a series of initiations conferred upon the individual, which are as Jim stated, based on the Craft Degrees of Masonry, with the exception of the V.O.T.S.L. In Masonry, we accept a few different "Holy Books" to take an oath upon. With the O.T.O., and the M.'.M.'.M.'. degree's, the book is the Book of the Law.
Every person, who is free and of full age, has the indefeasible right to the M.'.M.'.M.'. Degree's of the O.T.O. (0-III, IV and P.I.)
The A.'.A.'., Initiation rituals are very different, and as Jim mentioned, are based off of the Golden Dawn system...Up to 5=6 I believe.
Both have the Thelemic aspect to them.
I think the main difference is that the O.T.O. (USA) is a secret society, like freemasonry, and is very much 'Outer based' as far as Initiations are concerned. (There is memorization, and recommendation of study for advancement, we congregate, and offer the Gnostic Mass).
The A.'.A.'. is more of an 'Inner' experience. More individualized (In my experience)
Although they are two separate bodies, a lot of the Ritual practice, recommendations for study, memorization and practice are similar.
(Boy, I Hope that all makes sense:-)
A.'.A.'. is more rigorous in study, etc.
O.T.O. is more based on time periods for advancement, dues and fee's.Both are great Orders. I feel, ultimately it will be up to you to decide which path to take.
(You can do both)...I recommend one or the other at first:-)
(IMHO) A.'.A.'. is the way to go if you are Seriously seeking to learn!
Best wishes.
93 93/93.'.
James
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@rwidner said
"Are the OTO initiations the same for A.'.A.'.? In other words, can OTO be used for A.'.A.'. initiations?"
As most responses indicate, the answer is "No." These are two different "groups" or "orders," although there is a common philosophy shared by them (in many respects).
However, note that this "answer" pertains to the groups or lineages mentioned. But ALL intitiations, OTO, A.'.A.'., Masonry, Amerindian, etc do have one thing in common. They always portray a death and a resurrection of some kind. Even many Xtians use the "born again" slogan. -
93 HeliosMegestos.
Your information is misleading, and by the looks of your website, you are not a True Thelemite. (IMO)!
To the individual that originally started this thread:
Base initiation on your own personal experience.
It is different, and highly significant for each individual:-)Best wishes.
93 93/93
James
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@Shachdar8=3 said
"Your information is misleading, and by the looks of your website, you are not a True Thelemite. (IMO)!"
For some reason, the word "plagiarist" kept coming to mind as I looked through it.
Just be sure to mute your sound first.
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Hmmm, Audacious...
Pronunciation
–adjective- extremely bold or daring; recklessly brave; fearless: an audacious explorer.
- extremely original; without restriction to prior ideas; highly inventive: an audacious vision of the city's bright future.
- recklessly bold in defiance of convention, propriety, law, or the like; insolent; brazen.
- lively; unrestrained; uninhibited: an audacious interpretation of his or her role.
If this is what you meant, then yes.
93 93/93.'.
James
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A few questions:
Has a comparison and contrast ever been made of the Golden Dawn and A.A. system to see what AC and GCJ included, left out or added to each grade?
If AC attained to 10=1 at Cefalu in 1920, how was he able to set up the full A.A. system in 1907, prior to this attainment? Was he solely relying on the Golden Dawn rituals?
Who set up the Third Order of the Golden Dawn and in what year?
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As a note, in One Star in Sight, Crowley plainly outlines MT being the grade required for someone to fully establish an outer vehicle, or school, of the A.'.A.'. In 1907, when Crowley setup the structure of the A.'.A.'., he did it in preparation for when he did attain the grade of MT and joined the Third Order, 2 years later.
It's a little confusing when you directly compare it to the GD which he received his initiations through considering their two grade structures don't exactly match up.
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@kuniggety said
"As a note, in One Star in Sight, Crowley plainly outlines MT being the grade required for someone to fully establish an outer vehicle, or school, of the A.'.A.'. In 1907, when Crowley setup the structure of the A.'.A.'., he did it in preparation for when he did attain the grade of MT and joined the Third Order, 2 years later.
It's a little confusing when you directly compare it to the GD which he received his initiations through considering their two grade structures don't exactly match up."
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
I was always interested in the role of Cecil Jones in forming of the Astrum Argentum? Also, I can't remember who was the third person? Or just Jones and Crowley formed Astrum Argentum?
What about Transmission of the Etheric Link mentioned in one book by Pat Zalewski?"If an individua! is expelled or leaves the Order in the Outer Grades, the link will automatically seal itself off, as it cannot be sustained without impetus from the Second Order, no matter how much study is done."
"In the fina! phase at the 7°=4° Grade, a Ritual called Transmission of the Etheric Link is performed (and is usually reserved for those of the Office of Chief or who will succeed to that Office), where the Link is given in its entirety to the Adept so that they are able to carry on."
I hope this is not a problem quoting this, because this is just two sentences?
Crowley attained 7°=4° in 1906. Was Etheric Link was a part of this attainment? In the case that answer is yes, was this same Etheric Link like in the Golden Dawn, or not?
Love is the Law, Love under Will
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@h2h said
"Has a comparison and contrast ever been made of the Golden Dawn and A.A. system to see what AC and GCJ included, left out or added to each grade?"
Sure. Some of us have lived that comparison for a long time. - But remember, the proper comparison of the A.'.A.'. 1=10 through 5=6 isn't to the G.D. grades of the same designation, but to the sub-grades of the G.D.'s 5=6. That is, the 1=10 Neophyte grade has work roughly overlapping the 5=6 Zelator Adeptus Minor Grade (1=10 of 5=6) of the old G.D.
"If AC attained to 10=1 at Cefalu in 1920, how was he able to set up the full A.A. system in 1907, prior to this attainment? Was he solely relying on the Golden Dawn rituals?"
I don't even understand the question. How has attaining 10=1 anything at all to do with the subject?
To answer the implied question before - yes, the 1=10 initiation ritual of A.'.A.'. is a rewrite of the First Order initiation of the G.D. (its 0=0 or Neophyte ceremony); and the 2=9 initiation ritual of A.'.A.'. is a rewrite of the Second Order initiation of the G.D. (its 5=6 or Zelator Adeptus Minor ceremony).
"Who set up the Third Order of the Golden Dawn and in what year?"
No such thing. They primarily only worked through 5=6, though Mathers did have (and in a very limited way worked) rituals through 7=4.
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Shachdar - thanks for that link.
@Jim Eshelman said
"I don't even understand the question. How has attaining 10=1 anything at all to do with the subject?"
Jim - you stated elsewhere that AC attained 8=3 in December 1909, 9=2 in October 1915 and 10=1 in the 1920s. So my question is based on the presumption that one must know about that which he or she speaks - namely how could AC write down the descriptions of these grades if he had not attained to them at the time of establishing the A.'.A.'. system with GCJ in 1907? Were the descriptions based on traditional Kabbalistic sources or was someone else guiding these two men?
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The third person to help form the A.'.A.'. was Fuller in the role of Grand Neophyte, which is referenced in One Star in Sight though Fuller never went beyond the grade of Probationer he was authorized to admit Probationers to the order and admitted Achad and a few others. When he resigned the Grand Neophyte position wasn't filled, though Achad did take his position in the triumvirate. I held the position in a modern lineage when I was a Probationer.
As to Mathers though, he did have ritual fragments beyond the 7=4. I have been reading discussions of it on Pat Zalewski's Golden Dawn list. The whole thing really shows the pronounced differences between the Golden Dawn and the A.'.A.'. and especially Crowley and Mathers! I can't find the specific posts right now but the ritual of 8=3 reflected back to the 6=5 ritual.
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@HPK said
"I was always interested in the role of Cecil Jones in forming of the Astrum Argentum? Also, I can't remember who was the third person? Or just Jones and Crowley formed Astrum Argentum?"
This isn't a paid advertisement, but there's a lot of information about this history in a very nice book that's now back on the market.
"What about Transmission of the Etheric Link mentioned in one book by Pat Zalewski?"
Does anyone know if this "Etheric Link" thing was an invention of the Whare Ra period, or if it was originated by Felkin when he started the Stella Matutina, or if it might have even been used by the pre-1900 Golden Dawn? (I doubt the latter...)
In any case, I doubt that Crowley assumed anything like this in his own initiations. I suspect that Crowley would have asserted that this idea of stopping at 7=4 might be the very definition of "Black Brotherhood...."
Steve
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@Aum418 said
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@Shachdar8=3 said
"93 HeliosMegestos. Your information is misleading, and by the looks of your website, you are not a True Thelemite. (IMO)!"Thats quite audacious...IAO131"
Misleading? As in "incorrect?" As in "all initiation rituals do NOT include a (symbolic or real) death and rebirth of some nature?"
"Not a True Thelemite" must indicate that I am not doing my Will. Oh wait! I don't remember claiming that I was a true Thelemite.
You guys can pick away at the website all you want. The last time I looked it contained all the elements of a Thelemic (oh no!) society that was operative before any of you read your first Crowley book. Any plagiarism is not really stealing because the wording of certain documents is completely changed to reflect an "audacious," irreverent, dangerous approach to dictatorships - it even states that openly and up front. Did you destroy your computer after the first reading?
Anyone who is running around flashing an 8=3 username on a (semi)public forum is pretty far out. 8=3! right!
I remain, AlfredENu-Man9=2 (or wuz it 13=0, I can never remember).