What is the relationship-OTO initiations and A.'.A.'.

Jim Eshelman

@Shachdar8=3 said

"Your information is misleading, and by the looks of your website, you are not a True Thelemite. (IMO)!"

For some reason, the word "plagiarist" kept coming to mind as I looked through it.

Just be sure to mute your sound first.

Shachdar

Apologies on my part for choice of words used.

Thanks:-)

93 93/93.'.

James

Aum418

@Shachdar8=3 said

"93 HeliosMegestos.

Your information is misleading, and by the looks of your website, you are not a True Thelemite. (IMO)!
"

Thats quite audacious...

IAO131

Shachdar

Hmmm, Audacious...

Pronunciation
–adjective

extremely bold or daring; recklessly brave; fearless: an audacious explorer.
extremely original; without restriction to prior ideas; highly inventive: an audacious vision of the city's bright future.
recklessly bold in defiance of convention, propriety, law, or the like; insolent; brazen.
lively; unrestrained; uninhibited: an audacious interpretation of his or her role.

If this is what you meant, then yes.

93 93/93.'.

James

Anonymous

A few questions:

Has a comparison and contrast ever been made of the Golden Dawn and A.A. system to see what AC and GCJ included, left out or added to each grade?

If AC attained to 10=1 at Cefalu in 1920, how was he able to set up the full A.A. system in 1907, prior to this attainment? Was he solely relying on the Golden Dawn rituals?

Who set up the Third Order of the Golden Dawn and in what year?

Shachdar

Perhaps this link may be of some assistance in your question.

93 93/93.'.

James

www.arcane-archive.org/faqs/aafaq.ph

kuniggety

As a note, in One Star in Sight, Crowley plainly outlines MT being the grade required for someone to fully establish an outer vehicle, or school, of the A.'.A.'. In 1907, when Crowley setup the structure of the A.'.A.'., he did it in preparation for when he did attain the grade of MT and joined the Third Order, 2 years later.

It's a little confusing when you directly compare it to the GD which he received his initiations through considering their two grade structures don't exactly match up.

HPK

@kuniggety said

"As a note, in One Star in Sight, Crowley plainly outlines MT being the grade required for someone to fully establish an outer vehicle, or school, of the A.'.A.'. In 1907, when Crowley setup the structure of the A.'.A.'., he did it in preparation for when he did attain the grade of MT and joined the Third Order, 2 years later.

It's a little confusing when you directly compare it to the GD which he received his initiations through considering their two grade structures don't exactly match up."

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

I was always interested in the role of Cecil Jones in forming of the Astrum Argentum? Also, I can't remember who was the third person? Or just Jones and Crowley formed Astrum Argentum?
What about Transmission of the Etheric Link mentioned in one book by Pat Zalewski?

"If an individua! is expelled or leaves the Order in the Outer Grades, the link will automatically seal itself off, as it cannot be sustained without impetus from the Second Order, no matter how much study is done."

"In the fina! phase at the 7°=4° Grade, a Ritual called Transmission of the Etheric Link is performed (and is usually reserved for those of the Office of Chief or who will succeed to that Office), where the Link is given in its entirety to the Adept so that they are able to carry on."

I hope this is not a problem quoting this, because this is just two sentences?

Crowley attained 7°=4° in 1906. Was Etheric Link was a part of this attainment? In the case that answer is yes, was this same Etheric Link like in the Golden Dawn, or not?

Love is the Law, Love under Will

Jim Eshelman

@h2h said

"Has a comparison and contrast ever been made of the Golden Dawn and A.A. system to see what AC and GCJ included, left out or added to each grade?"

Sure. Some of us have lived that comparison for a long time. - But remember, the proper comparison of the A.'.A.'. 1=10 through 5=6 isn't to the G.D. grades of the same designation, but to the sub-grades of the G.D.'s 5=6. That is, the 1=10 Neophyte grade has work roughly overlapping the 5=6 Zelator Adeptus Minor Grade (1=10 of 5=6) of the old G.D.

"If AC attained to 10=1 at Cefalu in 1920, how was he able to set up the full A.A. system in 1907, prior to this attainment? Was he solely relying on the Golden Dawn rituals?"

I don't even understand the question. How has attaining 10=1 anything at all to do with the subject?

To answer the implied question before - yes, the 1=10 initiation ritual of A.'.A.'. is a rewrite of the First Order initiation of the G.D. (its 0=0 or Neophyte ceremony); and the 2=9 initiation ritual of A.'.A.'. is a rewrite of the Second Order initiation of the G.D. (its 5=6 or Zelator Adeptus Minor ceremony).

"Who set up the Third Order of the Golden Dawn and in what year?"

No such thing. They primarily only worked through 5=6, though Mathers did have (and in a very limited way worked) rituals through 7=4.

Anonymous

Shachdar - thanks for that link.

@Jim Eshelman said

"I don't even understand the question. How has attaining 10=1 anything at all to do with the subject?"

Jim - you stated elsewhere that AC attained 8=3 in December 1909, 9=2 in October 1915 and 10=1 in the 1920s. So my question is based on the presumption that one must know about that which he or she speaks - namely how could AC write down the descriptions of these grades if he had not attained to them at the time of establishing the A.'.A.'. system with GCJ in 1907? Were the descriptions based on traditional Kabbalistic sources or was someone else guiding these two men?

frateruranus

The third person to help form the A.'.A.'. was Fuller in the role of Grand Neophyte, which is referenced in One Star in Sight though Fuller never went beyond the grade of Probationer he was authorized to admit Probationers to the order and admitted Achad and a few others. When he resigned the Grand Neophyte position wasn't filled, though Achad did take his position in the triumvirate. I held the position in a modern lineage when I was a Probationer.

As to Mathers though, he did have ritual fragments beyond the 7=4. I have been reading discussions of it on Pat Zalewski's Golden Dawn list. The whole thing really shows the pronounced differences between the Golden Dawn and the A.'.A.'. and especially Crowley and Mathers! I can't find the specific posts right now but the ritual of 8=3 reflected back to the 6=5 ritual.

Steven Cranmer

@HPK said

"I was always interested in the role of Cecil Jones in forming of the Astrum Argentum? Also, I can't remember who was the third person? Or just Jones and Crowley formed Astrum Argentum?"

This isn't a paid advertisement, but there's a lot of information about this history in a very nice book that's now back on the market.

"What about Transmission of the Etheric Link mentioned in one book by Pat Zalewski?"

Does anyone know if this "Etheric Link" thing was an invention of the Whare Ra period, or if it was originated by Felkin when he started the Stella Matutina, or if it might have even been used by the pre-1900 Golden Dawn? (I doubt the latter...)

In any case, I doubt that Crowley assumed anything like this in his own initiations. I suspect that Crowley would have asserted that this idea of stopping at 7=4 might be the very definition of "Black Brotherhood...."

Steve

HeliosMegistos

@Aum418 said

"
@Shachdar8=3 said
"93 HeliosMegestos. Your information is misleading, and by the looks of your website, you are not a True Thelemite. (IMO)!"

Thats quite audacious...IAO131"

Misleading? As in "incorrect?" As in "all initiation rituals do NOT include a (symbolic or real) death and rebirth of some nature?"

"Not a True Thelemite" must indicate that I am not doing my Will. Oh wait! I don't remember claiming that I was a true Thelemite.

You guys can pick away at the website all you want. The last time I looked it contained all the elements of a Thelemic (oh no!) society that was operative before any of you read your first Crowley book. Any plagiarism is not really stealing because the wording of certain documents is completely changed to reflect an "audacious," irreverent, dangerous approach to dictatorships - it even states that openly and up front. Did you destroy your computer after the first reading?

Anyone who is running around flashing an 8=3 username on a (semi)public forum is pretty far out. 8=3! right!

I remain, AlfredENu-Man9=2 (or wuz it 13=0, I can never remember).

Jim Eshelman

@h2h said

"
@Jim Eshelman said
"I don't even understand the question. How has attaining 10=1 anything at all to do with the subject?"

Jim - you stated elsewhere that AC attained 8=3 in December 1909, 9=2 in October 1915 and 10=1 in the 1920s. So my question is based on the presumption that one must know about that which he or she speaks - namely how could AC write down the descriptions of these grades if he had not attained to them at the time of establishing the A.'.A.'. system with GCJ in 1907? Were the descriptions based on traditional Kabbalistic sources or was someone else guiding these two men?"

He didn't. For example, One Star in Sight (the only real description of 10=1 in his writings) was written later in the 1920s, after he had attained the grade.

And yes, it's also true that they were working under guidance. That was the whole point!

But those first years, they onluy wrote about the work up to 5=6 for the most part.

Shachdar

93 Edward E Numan.

What are you...A Minerval or something?

You don't know who I am, or what lineage I come from...Obviously you are not to familiar with grade structures within various different orders.

It doesn't say "Shachdar 8=3 O.T.O., or AA"

93 93/93.'.

(There is a difference between doing YOUR will, and THOU Will!)

James

Anonymous

@Jim Eshelman said

"
And yes, it's also true that they were working under guidance. That was the whole point!"

Under whose guidance? Aiwaz?? I don't recall reading anything like this in Confessions. If the guiding entity for setting up the A.'.A.'. system was Aiwaz, how was communication made with him - trance/channeling or automatic writing etc? And are there any documents of this communication in the order's founding papers?

Jim Eshelman

Not guidance in the sense of dictation (a la PFC's communications with R.). It's more subtle than that.

Heru

@h2h said

"Under whose guidance? Aiwaz??"

Also one V.V.V.V.V. arose, an exalted adept of the rank of Master of the Temple (or this much He disclosed to the Exempt Adepts) and His utterance is enshrined in the Sacred Writings.

Anonymous

V.V.V.V.V. = tautological answer.

Jim - can you explain what you mean by "subtle"?

Red Eagle of Death

I read somewhere in another thread that IX degree O.T.O. was analogous to D.M. or 5=6 of A.'.A.'. - how do the other degrees of O.T.O. align with the Grades of A.'.A.'.?