What is the relationship-OTO initiations and A.'.A.'.
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@h2h said
"Has a comparison and contrast ever been made of the Golden Dawn and A.A. system to see what AC and GCJ included, left out or added to each grade?"
Sure. Some of us have lived that comparison for a long time. - But remember, the proper comparison of the A.'.A.'. 1=10 through 5=6 isn't to the G.D. grades of the same designation, but to the sub-grades of the G.D.'s 5=6. That is, the 1=10 Neophyte grade has work roughly overlapping the 5=6 Zelator Adeptus Minor Grade (1=10 of 5=6) of the old G.D.
"If AC attained to 10=1 at Cefalu in 1920, how was he able to set up the full A.A. system in 1907, prior to this attainment? Was he solely relying on the Golden Dawn rituals?"
I don't even understand the question. How has attaining 10=1 anything at all to do with the subject?
To answer the implied question before - yes, the 1=10 initiation ritual of A.'.A.'. is a rewrite of the First Order initiation of the G.D. (its 0=0 or Neophyte ceremony); and the 2=9 initiation ritual of A.'.A.'. is a rewrite of the Second Order initiation of the G.D. (its 5=6 or Zelator Adeptus Minor ceremony).
"Who set up the Third Order of the Golden Dawn and in what year?"
No such thing. They primarily only worked through 5=6, though Mathers did have (and in a very limited way worked) rituals through 7=4.
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Shachdar - thanks for that link.
@Jim Eshelman said
"I don't even understand the question. How has attaining 10=1 anything at all to do with the subject?"
Jim - you stated elsewhere that AC attained 8=3 in December 1909, 9=2 in October 1915 and 10=1 in the 1920s. So my question is based on the presumption that one must know about that which he or she speaks - namely how could AC write down the descriptions of these grades if he had not attained to them at the time of establishing the A.'.A.'. system with GCJ in 1907? Were the descriptions based on traditional Kabbalistic sources or was someone else guiding these two men?
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The third person to help form the A.'.A.'. was Fuller in the role of Grand Neophyte, which is referenced in One Star in Sight though Fuller never went beyond the grade of Probationer he was authorized to admit Probationers to the order and admitted Achad and a few others. When he resigned the Grand Neophyte position wasn't filled, though Achad did take his position in the triumvirate. I held the position in a modern lineage when I was a Probationer.
As to Mathers though, he did have ritual fragments beyond the 7=4. I have been reading discussions of it on Pat Zalewski's Golden Dawn list. The whole thing really shows the pronounced differences between the Golden Dawn and the A.'.A.'. and especially Crowley and Mathers! I can't find the specific posts right now but the ritual of 8=3 reflected back to the 6=5 ritual.
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@HPK said
"I was always interested in the role of Cecil Jones in forming of the Astrum Argentum? Also, I can't remember who was the third person? Or just Jones and Crowley formed Astrum Argentum?"
This isn't a paid advertisement, but there's a lot of information about this history in a very nice book that's now back on the market.
"What about Transmission of the Etheric Link mentioned in one book by Pat Zalewski?"
Does anyone know if this "Etheric Link" thing was an invention of the Whare Ra period, or if it was originated by Felkin when he started the Stella Matutina, or if it might have even been used by the pre-1900 Golden Dawn? (I doubt the latter...)
In any case, I doubt that Crowley assumed anything like this in his own initiations. I suspect that Crowley would have asserted that this idea of stopping at 7=4 might be the very definition of "Black Brotherhood...."
Steve
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@Aum418 said
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@Shachdar8=3 said
"93 HeliosMegestos. Your information is misleading, and by the looks of your website, you are not a True Thelemite. (IMO)!"Thats quite audacious...IAO131"
Misleading? As in "incorrect?" As in "all initiation rituals do NOT include a (symbolic or real) death and rebirth of some nature?"
"Not a True Thelemite" must indicate that I am not doing my Will. Oh wait! I don't remember claiming that I was a true Thelemite.
You guys can pick away at the website all you want. The last time I looked it contained all the elements of a Thelemic (oh no!) society that was operative before any of you read your first Crowley book. Any plagiarism is not really stealing because the wording of certain documents is completely changed to reflect an "audacious," irreverent, dangerous approach to dictatorships - it even states that openly and up front. Did you destroy your computer after the first reading?
Anyone who is running around flashing an 8=3 username on a (semi)public forum is pretty far out. 8=3! right!
I remain, AlfredENu-Man9=2 (or wuz it 13=0, I can never remember).
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@h2h said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I don't even understand the question. How has attaining 10=1 anything at all to do with the subject?"Jim - you stated elsewhere that AC attained 8=3 in December 1909, 9=2 in October 1915 and 10=1 in the 1920s. So my question is based on the presumption that one must know about that which he or she speaks - namely how could AC write down the descriptions of these grades if he had not attained to them at the time of establishing the A.'.A.'. system with GCJ in 1907? Were the descriptions based on traditional Kabbalistic sources or was someone else guiding these two men?"
He didn't. For example, One Star in Sight (the only real description of 10=1 in his writings) was written later in the 1920s, after he had attained the grade.
And yes, it's also true that they were working under guidance. That was the whole point!
But those first years, they onluy wrote about the work up to 5=6 for the most part.
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93 Edward E Numan.
What are you...A Minerval or something?
You don't know who I am, or what lineage I come from...Obviously you are not to familiar with grade structures within various different orders.
It doesn't say "Shachdar 8=3 O.T.O., or AA"
93 93/93.'.
(There is a difference between doing YOUR will, and THOU Will!)
James
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@Jim Eshelman said
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And yes, it's also true that they were working under guidance. That was the whole point!"Under whose guidance? Aiwaz?? I don't recall reading anything like this in Confessions. If the guiding entity for setting up the A.'.A.'. system was Aiwaz, how was communication made with him - trance/channeling or automatic writing etc? And are there any documents of this communication in the order's founding papers?
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Not guidance in the sense of dictation (a la PFC's communications with R.). It's more subtle than that.
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I read somewhere in another thread that IX degree O.T.O. was analogous to D.M. or 5=6 of A.'.A.'. - how do the other degrees of O.T.O. align with the Grades of A.'.A.'.?
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Crowley at one time gave an opinion correlating IX° O.T.O. with 6=5 (Adeptus Major) A.'.A.'.. He wasn't saying one is equal to the other - he was saying that the 6=5 is expected to have acquired "all magical power," and the IX° methods fill that need.
I came up with many cross-connections during my early years, though the most important thing to say is that the systems are technically incommensurable. One doesn't exactly equate to the other.
My favorites FWIW: Since one of the IX° refers to using the technique to attain to the K&C of the HGA, that means that IX° is (at its beginning) less than 5=6. That led to me equating it to A.'.A.'. 4=7 (which is more or less 7=4 of the old G.D.). This gives a very nice pattern where VIII° equates to 3=8 and VII° to 2=9 (and most of their papers and mysteries and techniques overlap these quite reasonably). Then "the whole of freemasonry" (which in O.T.O. is equivalent to VI° and earlier) equates to Malkuth. You can further parse it between 0=0 and 1=10 be noting that the III° O.T.O. takes on certain obligations that are resolved fully by A.'.A.'. 1=10 work, so I drew the line equating Probationer to O.T.O. 0°-II°, and Zelator to III°-VI°.
But, again, its just modelling for the sake of seeing what light each sheds on the other (and, in my original approach, to leverage A.'.A.'. instructions in building an O.T.O. education system). It shouldn't be taken as an equation.
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They don't really line up. Crowley makes a comment how he thinks it's a good idea for those of Adeptus Major to attain IX in the OTO to have the teachings of that grade at their disposal and in another place makes a comment about the OTO being able to produce magicians up to 6=5 but no more. This was the OTO as ran by Crowley, or at least how he liked to envision it.
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What about the correlation between Golden Dawn & A.'.A.'.? You said that 2=9 of A.'.A.'. was the equivalent of 5=6 in HOGD & 7=4 of HOGD was the equivalent of 4=7 in A.'.A.'. - what about the other Grades? Will you do a side-by-side comparrison?
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@kuniggety said
"...and in another place makes a comment about the OTO being able to produce magicians up to 6=5 but no more. This was the OTO as ran by Crowley, or at least how he liked to envision it."
I've never liked his IX to 6=5 comparison. I always thought it went too far or not far enough.
My discomfort may be in the wording, and especially in the inference of an actual equation or near-equation. Based on direct experience of both, I'm willing to say that if a well-trained and well-experienced is also an Adept in the A.'.A.'. sense (5=6 Within), then the IX° would give that person outwardly discernible characteristics of a 6=5 and very likely would lead to that grade. - However, if a IX° isn't also actually 5=6 then there's no way that he or she is 6=5 - the degree expression would be more like 4=7.
On the other hand, I don't think the comparison goes far enough. I can't imagine a genu-wine Adept who understood and practiced the IX° O.T.O. method not also being as much 7=4 as they are 6=5. To me, the 7=4 symbolic and practical correspondences to 7=4 are much more striking to me than to 6=5. (But then, someone may be wanting to reserve that 7=4 analogy for, say, X°?)
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@Red Eagle of Death said
"616"
...you do realize that 616 is my signature & not a farewell...right?
616
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@Red Eagle of Death said
"What about the correlation between Golden Dawn & A.'.A.'.? You said that 2=9 of A.'.A.'. was the equivalent of 5=6 in HOGD & 7=4 of HOGD was the equivalent of 4=7 in A.'.A.'. - what about the other Grades? Will you do a side-by-side comparison?"
That's complicated by the question of whether you mean the ideal or the actual.
It's also complicated because the G.D. is a "work after" system and the A.'.A.'. is a "work before" system. Let me give you an example: Though 2=9 in G.D. and 2=9 in A.'.A.'. aren't the same at all, they at least share the quality of being symbolically correspondent to Yesod. In the G.D., the sequence is, "First you are initiated into Yesod, then you begin working on Yesod stuff." (I call this "work after.") In the A.'.A.'., the sequence is, "Master the methods which give you direct access to Yesod, and then we'll confirm this with the Yesod initiation." (I call this "work before.")
This is relevant to your question because it explains a confusion in reasonable correspondences. The A.'.A.'. 2=9 initiation ceremony is an adaptation of the G.D. 5=6 ceremony, and (as with the G.D.) is considered admission into the Second Order. However, the 1=10 A.'.A.'. is already doing the work of the G.D. 5=6 for the most part (and not just the preliminary Z.A.M. work - also much of the Th.A.M. curriculum).
So the A.'.A.'. 1=10 is akin to Second Order (5=6) G.D. in terms of the work actually being done; but the A.'.A.'. 2=9 is the analog in terms of initiation and symbolism.
Probably the best way to understand the A.'.A.'. 1=10 through 5=6 is that they are analogous to the five sub-grades of 5=6 in the G.D. (In the G.D. model, one worked the grades to Tiphereth at one level, being advised just before that one hadn't gotten past Megalith; then 5=6 was divided into 1=10 of 5=6 through 5=6 of 5=6. These were intended to rework the same territory at a higher level, what those of us who are snobs for this sort of thing sometimes call "actually" working it.)
The problem is, the G.D. system never really pulled that off. If they had, then the G.D. and A.'.A.'. systems would have converged at 6=5. In actuality, they never seriously developed the curriculum past a decent start at the Th.A.M. (2=9 of 5=6) level. Also (with the possible exception of Florence Farr), there was nobody in the entire history of the G.D. (1887-1900) who attained the K&C of the HGA while still a member. If such a real adept had come along, they likely would have thought him or her an 8=3. (And, indeed, when A.C. first thought he was reaching 8=3 in 1906, he was going through all the steps and getting all the results that are normal for what A.'.A.'. now calls 5=6).
This gives us a worthy dividing line for a technical comparison, though! If we take the ceremonial admission to the G.D. 5=6 as marking A.'.A.'. 2=9, and G.D. 8=3 as the name given to A.'.A.'. 5=6, then we have the 2=9 through 4=7 triad of A.'.A.'. corresponding to the 5=6 through 7=4 triad of G.D. (It's not quite grade-for-grade, but it's close enough for this overview.)
This makes a lot of things make sense!
But it also leads us, sooner or later, to what I think is the real basis for comparison. The Sephiroth are convenient (very convenient; I would probably say necessary) marking points, especially for a training system; but the real progress of attainment is in terms of the Four Worlds. Things get clearer when you realize that the A.'.A.'. admission into 5=6 (i.e., the success of the Dominus Liminis grade right before it) is an opening of consciousness to Briah; and the G.D. used a model where the opening of Briatic consciousness was at Binah. The maps suddenly look pretty much the same.
An example of convegence of these: The 8° of Temple of Thelema is exactly equal to 5=6 A.'.A.'.. It is, however, symbolically equated to Binah. and I needed to write an initiation ceremony that would actually trigger the opening of Neshamic consciousness (so to speak, the full descent of the Shin), would open the gates in preparation for what A.'.A.'. calls 5=6, but would be founded on Binah symbols. This was done by using the Grail as the central symbol which undergoes the key transmutation (building on a particularly splendid and beautiful moment in the 5° ceremony where the postulant utters a phrase beginning, "My victory..."). The convergence works quite beautifully, and had the secondary advantage that writing the ceremony further emphasized to me the necessary transparency of specific forms in the face of the actuality of what they veil.
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@KRVB MMShCh said
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@Red Eagle of Death said
"616"...you do realize that 616 is my signature & not a farewell...right?
616"
I knew it was the number of your motto, but I guess I assumed it was a designated farwell too after reading about 616 maybe being the number of the Beast. -
@Jim Eshelman said
"This makes a lot of things make sense!"
Thanks for that thorough reply Jim...I think I have a reasonable foothold on the differences(and similarities) between the Orders.
Let me make sure I am getting it all in order:
The Golden Dawn developed out of Rosicrucianism & A.'.A.'. is the maturation of the same system? How does Freemasonry & the O.T.O. fit into all of this? Did Freemasonry, like Rosicrucianism, develop out of the Templars?