Question on Liber L
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@Froclown said
"Its only considered low by you, because your brainwashed with capitalist liberal-democracy ideals. "
Anyway, you are not addressing my point. You don't need a master before or after discovering your True Will.
Having a master before you discover your True Will, would make it very difficult (almost impossible) since you live for your master. (You can't do your spiritual retreat to perform the Abramelin Operation just to give an example)
Having a master after discovering your True Will makes no sense, since you live to serve your HGA and to do YOUR True Will, not your masters will.
(Unless your master is your guru and you have discovered that you need to serve your guru as part of your True Will)The whole essay is flawed from a thelemic point of view.
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"Oh? Check out today's news (Iraq, Afgan, Assorted African Nations, Korea, etc, etc) - Not much has changed. No agreement - human nature was and is aggressive and it turns violent whenever it thinks it can get away with it. "
93 Sphynx,
I think you've misunderstood my point. I'm not saying that human nature does not include violence (although I'm not sure it does to the point you suggest); I'm saying that at the time The Book of the Law was written society was much more restrictive in regards both to the nature of sexuality and the healthy expression of aggression. The effect of writing extensively on sexual license and violence would have been sharper on the average 19th century Londoner than it is on the 21st century New Yorker. Honestly, compared to today's HBO programming TBOTL is pretty tame.
My point in bringing it up is not to argue that Thelema is some kind of pacifist, hippie philosophy, but rather to offer an objection to Froclown's model. My objection is not the caste system, per se, but the implication that everyone should be solving their differences by beating the snot out of each other. It makes no sense for us to expect Stephen Hawking to defend his position as Lucasian Professor of Mathematics every year through mortal combat.
I think Froclown has rendered my objection null by quoting that bit from Crowley in which mention is made of arbitration committees or some such.
Hope this clears up my position.
Love=Law
- C
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well, in the A.'.A.'. one basically has a guide or master who is one grade a head. For from working out ones True WILL all on ones own, the purpose of this guide is to look over ones notes and practices, in order to grant a degree of objectivity, that is missing if one only judges ones own actions for oneself. One also has a understudy which one helps guide into one own grade. Thus one learns the lesson of being a subordinate and a superior role.
This I agree is quite far from the total one sided Domination of the Gorean slave, but it does make my point that True WILL is an objective scientific discovery, not a merely personal subjective inner journey of biased opinion. (Else wise I can just lie to myself and became totally deluded and basically psychotic)
The Gorean situation of the totally dominated slave, I do not indent for the initiate still working up to the HGA ritual, nor is it meant for the Adeptus 5=6, it is meant for the Adeptus major, on the verge of crossing the abyss. That is one who is attempting to fully withdraw from the physical manifestation, tho enter the abyss. Crossing the abyss means to fully dis-incarnate, and this means giving one self up, Mind, body and soul. It means renouncing every material possession of the body, even ones clothes. It also means you must give up every last claim to any human right, you must give up your health as well as your wealth, You must numb your mind, and kill your heart. It must be given freely or stripped away from you. Thus by total submission the slave becomes nothing.
Not only submission to one master, the slave submits fully to any and every free person. Owns nothing, has no rights, and does not even own her own name, even speaking in third person.
This is the way into the abyss, even the HGA is given up, one is slain fully and totally. The fully trained slave is an empty shell, the bade in the abyss, she is the adeptus exemptus.
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@Froclown said
"but it does make my point that True WILL is an objective scientific discovery, not a merely personal subjective inner journey of biased opinion. "
My understanding is limited here, but I was under the impression one's true will is really only intelligible to him or herself, and is received from subjective experiences.
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@Froclown said
"but it does make my point that True WILL is an objective scientific discovery "
93,
I wouldn't go that far. All you've really proven is that according to the A.'A.' system objective reflection or supervision is useful in directing one towards the True Will. If the discovery itself were objective, then you might as well turn everything over to your master and wait 4 to 6 weeks for him to process and encapsulate your True Will for you.
I hope that's not what we're moving towards.
Love=Law
- C
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Subjective thoughts are themselves objective events in space time.
To know ones True Will is not to hold a bit of linguistic information in ones mind, like my Will is to bake pies or my Will is to sail a ship, Rather the True WIll is more of an inner compass that ones conscious directed activity is or is not aligned with. The way in which the WILL expresses itself or the means by which one achieves it, are various and depend upon the individual and the environment at the time.All I am asking is that the nature of individuals be studied so that the classes of person or the modes of Will expression can be within a reasonable degree of uncertainty calculated and then a social environment set up so that individuals of every class of Will have the opportunity to reach their fullest potential expression of that Will, in a constructed system where each class supports the other classes, and a whole greater than the sum of each Will emerges in a societal aggregate of WILLs.
In order to discern what actions are effective means to achieve ones Will and which ones are not requires objective study. Subjectively one may feel as if the euphoria or heroin injections have satisfied ones WILL, one may confuse pleasant sensations with achievement of Real life goals, just as did the eaters of the Lotus or Ulysses's Crew on Cleo's Island. However an objective perspective shows than one is actually just lying around drooling on oneself, not actually accomplishing anything, lot a alone ones True WILL. Thus in this case the drug Euphoria is an escape, a running away from ones WILL, by short cutting the Doing of the WILL, with an chemical than simulates the reword of Ra-hoor-kuit. Thus, Drug addiction is fear disguised as love.
Small amounts of heroin used to reduce pain so that one can go to work and be productive however, is an example of a drug used as a tool to achieve the WILL.
But, one needs an objective perspective on this, or else one may be unable to tell the difference.We see the same action supports the Will of one and kills it in the other. Thus are examples of caste considerations, or rather medical consideration of who it shall be beneficial and who detrimental to be granted heroin rations to. (makes much more sense than a general moratorium against heroin use for all)
Likewise other consideration can be used to discern who will benefit from country living and manual labor, due to biological physique and psychological disposition, and who would be more suited to office labor, due to perhaps asthma or allergic reaction to country air, yet a sharp mind for figures and a touch of perfectionism.
To assure than the right person is suited to the right job, will result in the greater satisfaction for all. The office will not run smoothly if just one slow witted galoot who would have been a powerhouse on the farm, is hired to fumble through accounting forms, leaving the others to clean up his mistakes. The Farmer will likewise have little use for a scrawny little neurotic accountant, who can't lift a hay bail, and can't stop sneezing long enough to milk a cow.
Then we get into the fact that the neurotic an the galoot where told their whole lives they can be anything they want to be, and were pressured by peers and family to be this or that, not on suitability but on family tradition, or economic issues only. They were not given specialized training to be what they are cut out for, and thus even if the neuratic does fall into the accounting job, he will not be a trained as he could have been, if he were primed to be an accountant his whole life. Olympic athletes are the top of their game, not because after highschool they got tired of smoking pot and drinking for a few years and though, Hey I think I want to be a sprinter, maybe Ill join the Olympics. Rather from a very early age, they were selected for their ability and that potential was nourished, the child trained, disciplined and the WILL directed towards one and only one Goal the gold metal.
Thus would it be with every Cast. Each finding its own Goal the most worthy and necessary keystone in the whole society, and no one feeling resentful or jealous of other caste's roles.
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@Froclown said
"The Farmer will likewise have little use for a scrawny little neurotic accountant..."
The biggest thing about AC's use of the phrase True Will for me, is that he seems to see it as something fixed. Like if your True Will is to be a farmer, you should be a farmer for life and the best darned farmer that you can be. I don't know any career I would want to do for my entire life. I've enjoyed job changes and new avenues to explore.
If it's argued that True Will doesn't necessarily mean a profession, then we shouldn't attempt to impose it's usage upon us in that way - ie. the caste system.
I am Legion and Loving it
PS froclown - that farmer, if he's smart, will take advantage of any good accountant willing to help. Maintaining a farm is really difficult in the USA, and every bit helps. Also there is always work to be done on a farm, even from the weaker members of the race.
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Scarecrow, 93,
It would likely be misleading to say something like "My True Will is to be a farmer," or "Being an astronaut is my True Will." The actual occupation is the end-product in most cases.
The formulae for those TWs could possibly be: "To exist close to the earth" or "To know the glory of the stars." The two occupations would fit these primary phrasings, but not exclusively so. I could see a marathon runner enacting the first formula, and someone who painted visionary images conforming to the second.
How the TW is enacted in life can easily shift from time to time, and decade to decade. As our understanding stretches, it might even need revising after a time, to become more inclusive of what our lives are about.
93 93/93,
EM
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Alright - let's suppose that your idea of the True Will is what Crowley means by the True Will. In such as case do you see how you could possible implement a caste system based on this scheme?
My point is that you couldn't.
What I was trying to get at is that if the True Will of someone isn't as detailed as a profession... then it's impossible to put people into castes.
Castes based around "existing close to the earth" or "knowing the glory of the stars" seem impossible.
On another note... "existing close to the earth" and "knowing the glory of the stars"... really?
True Will discussion are usually very bizzare and this one qualifies. Would you venture to put forth some specific examples of people and what you believe their True Will was, so that I can understand your interpretation better?
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True WILL is not what one wants to do in this sense, its not like I desire in my heart to see the glory of the stars. Rather True WILL is more like what one is designed to do by biology, and the social, emotional, religious, and political environment in which one comes into incarnation.
For example a fish has gills and scales thus its WILL is to swim in the water, a Shark has sharp teeth so its WILL is to eat smaller fish. A bird has nest building instincts, wings, hollow bones and lays eggs thus its WILL is to fly build nests and lay eggs in trees.
A hammer has a large metal head with a flat end and a forked end, thus its proper use is to drive and pull nails, the nail itself being suited to be driven and pulled by hammers, each was created for use by the other.
Thus the TRUE WILL of any individual is what its proper use is, what it was designed by nature to do, and thusly the purpose for which we the sense of self/agency has taken residence in this particular vehicle, rather than some other one.
See "Duty" for elaboration.
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I've heard animals mentioned in relation to the True Will multiple times. And it's always in the sense of, "a bird's instincts are.." or a "a shark's instincts are..."
Why don't we discuss humans in the same way and group the entire species together... "a human's instincts are..."
Or to look at it another way... do different birds have different True Wills?
BTW: I've never heard True Will mentioned in terms of Hammers or any other tool. Boy I need to stop using a hammer to scratch my back... I'm ruining the poor things True Will.
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Yes each bird has its own true Will.
and its not what its instincts are, it is what it is structurally suited to do.
In a similar way that humans create nails to be hammered and hammers to drive nails, so do are for example bees forged to be attracted to flowers and flowers in return are shpaed to attract bees,In one case it is humans acting on both sides, in the other its a feed back between two parts of the eco-system. Really the ecosystem in not bees and flowers, etc but one continuous whole. Each part in a manifestation of the whole entire eco-system. A frog for example is made up entirely of the stuff that makes up the pond it lives in. Thus a frog is a microcosm of the whole swamp, Changes in the swamp change the frogs, and changes in the frogs change the swamp in turn. There is no true distinction Frog from swamp.
Humans being time-binding beings are part of an eco-system called society which includes not only the direct physical matter we use to bind chemicals in our bodies, or the energy and tools we use to bind space, Our eco-system must include the symbols and language which we use to bind time. We are not each of us islands, but we are continuous with our environment. MAN-As-A-WHLOE-IN-HIS-ENVIRONMNET-AS-A-WHOLE.
Thusly we use tools to change the physical environment and we use Magick to shape the symbolic environment. And when we change the myths, the culture, the ritual, the symbols, which is the task of the magician, especially during a transition of aeons, well then we also change the nature of human Identity and our social roles and functions. The ideas is to create a harmonious feed back, so that the individual and the environment are enhancing eachother, like the hammer and the nail.
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@Froclown said
"A bird has nest building instincts, wings, hollow bones and lays eggs thus its WILL is to fly build nests and lay eggs in trees."
@Froclown said
"Yes each bird has its own true Will.
and its not what its instincts are, it is what it is structurally suited to do."mmmm..."Instincts" and "Structure"... Are not instincts part of structure?
Q1: A hammer's "True Will" (gasp) is to hammer a nail.
If I melt down the hammer does it's true will change?Q2: It's Michael Jordan's "True Will" (gasp) to play Basketball (no not Baseball Mike, nooooo). If I pull off his arms does his True Will change?
Q3: Can True Will change?
@Froclown said
"The ideas is to create a harmonious feed back, so that the individual and the environment are enhancing eachother, like the hammer and the nail."
Q4: Can you point to a disharmonious feedback? Harmony and Disharmony? seem like a human concept to me. There is always going to be feedback - wouldn't it be more accurate to say the idea is to create USEFUL feedback?
Boy this concept of True Will sure is hard to grasp for me. So many people in the occult community are apt to say all Captial T Truth is BS, and it's only lower case t truth that's possible. Why does capital T, True Will get an easy pass without much thought?
Q5: If I say it's my True Will to get people to throw away the idea of True Will... how can you argue with me? How can I prove it? How can it be disproven? If you all dump the idea... and there is no more belief in True Will anymore... what happens to my True Will? Does it go away?
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Scarecrow, 93,
Obviously, Froclown and I are at complete odds here. I think his views are narrow and nonsensical, and he doubtless thinks the same about mine.
We are talking about True Will - not instincts, programming, instilled social conditioning, or some other formed or created thing. We are talking about an enormous dynamism rooted above the Abyss in Chokmah. Form begins in the next sephirah, Binah. Yes, they're on the same level of the Tree, but there is still a reason for the two sephiroth being sequential in number.
TW's intrinsic nature, then, is Supernal - it's beyond human concepts. How it manifests below the Abyss is going to be enormously varied, and will take different forms on different levels. So in its essence, TW doesn't change - in how it is brought out in life, it varies endlessly. This is why this feudalism nonsense is just that - nonsense. It's ludicrously inflexible.
Any given action or statement we make might stem from TW, just as one might chose one's occupation based upon it. But most of us are, in practical terms, compromising all the time. And equally and simultaneously, we aren't - we are working it all out. We are trying our best - instinctively, rationally and intuitively - to figure out just what our Truth is. A human life - an initiated or awakened human life - is mostly about doing precisely that.
But once the TW is grasped reasonably completely, then a person can live according to its terms without conflict. Such a person is a pretty advanced being. You can recognize his or her energy, certainty, serenity, power, warmth .... all of that.
Ultimately, such a being can declare his/her Word, and manifest as a Magus. You don't encounter many of them in on-line forums.
As for proving anything in an objectively verifiable sense, whether it's about Michael Jordan's missing arm or something else, that takes us off into the wrong area. We prove, each of us, our own TW - or more strictly, the HGA guides us through that process. What is an HGA? The HGA itself will show us that, and endeavoring to live according to our ever-evolving concept of TW is a tool in that equally evolving encounter.
Most people find the definitions become much more difficult to verbalize the further into the process we go. At the same time, for the being undergoing the experience, things are actually getting clearer over time - or perhaps it's truer to say, the paradoxes are more easily accepted as time goes by.
93 93/93,
EM
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**WILL ** as defined on the free dictionary:
"will 1 (wl)
n.a. The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action: championed freedom of will against a doctrine of predetermination.
b. The act of exercising the will.
2.
a. Diligent purposefulness; determination: an athlete with the will to win.
b. Self-control; self-discipline: lacked the will to overcome the addiction.
3. A desire, purpose, or determination, especially of one in authority: It is the sovereign's will that the prisoner be spared.
4. Deliberate intention or wish: Let it be known that I took this course of action against my will.
5. Free discretion; inclination or pleasure: wandered about, guided only by will.
6. Bearing or attitude toward others; disposition: full of good will.
7.
a. A legal declaration of how a person wishes his or her possessions to be disposed of after death.
b. A legally executed document containing this declaration."Do any of these hit home with what you are saying about True Will? Perhaps it's like you are saying, Edward Mason, and TW is Supernal beyond human concepts. However, I am very doubtful about anything that someone terms beyond human concepts, them being a human and all...
Another point you make is that you won't find them on on-line forums (which made me laugh hysterically), but then you posit that you can recognize them by their energy, certainty, serenity, power, warmth...
How do you know that? Have you ever met someone like this? Did they have a True Will? Were they a Magus?
I've met some confidence men that seemed to have all those qualities...
I'm very interested in the many parts of Crowley, and deeply interested in the Scientific Crowley, however the concept of the True Will seems like a religious concept such as the Soul... and you might understand that I get off the ferris wheel when that one comes around.
Let me put it another way. Who's authority do we have it on, that there is a True Will that each of us have? Why do we believe him? Please speak up if you've found your TW and can educate me further on this concept, but if you haven't, aren't you dogmatically following someone's position on faith? How is TW different then Soul then, or God for that matter?
Levi has this bit in one of his books where the man of Science is talking to the man of Faith and ultimately he wants the 2 to come together and not take each other's side, but to use each other to further growth/evolution/something like that. I think the man of Faith says something like, I just know, and you'll never convince me otherwise that there is a God. Now many occultists thumb their noses at Christians or other people of beliefs when they pull out statements like this, but how many of us have our own beliefs taken on faith, such as True Will?
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Scarecrow, 93,
Well, the only authority is going to be found in your own consciousness, or coming from behind it. There is no form of words I could offer here that would allay your doubts about the existence of True Will, or the supernal realm. And let's be clear - words like 'supernal' are an attempt to put into words what goes beyond them. We can, though, accept at least the possibility that terms such as True Will or soul have some degree of actual meaning, even if that meaning it doesn't conform to conventional definitions.
I have met a number of people who exhibit(ed) the qualities I listed. I didn't think it either relevant or polite to pin them down to a Grade. I was more interested in seeing what they had to say, and what effect they had on me. I doubt I have met an actual Magus, but then it might take a Magister Templi to spot one.
Beware thinking such 'advanced' people are devoid of a con-artist side, or other reprehensible traits. That's a common error. They are what they are - that's a primary teaching in Thelema. I have a lifelong friend who, I'm convinced, is an Adept - he's half crazy, and hit on another friend's wife some years ago while they were all heading downtown in the same car. He's also one of the most intuitive and aware people I've ever met. Strange and lovely stuff always happens when he's around.
I actually accept all the definitions you quote as being useful. They don't 'define' true will, any of them, but if you take the verbal formula of True Will as equivalent to a 'document' then everything here applies. What's missing is the 'True' bit - the overarching, underlying, wholly interpenetrating aspect to TW. When the first intuitions or indications or revelations or whatever come regarding that, there is usually a spontaneous evocation of the 'other' Tetragrammaton - "SHIT!" -[ which the automatic system for this forum will likely purge and replace with some euphemism]. It will provide food for thought. It will be scary, and exhilarating, and will cry out to be written down in your magical diary so, like a botanical specimen or a stamp in a collection it can be looked at, and thus appear to be safely disconnected from its primal power. For a time, anyway.
Then you can spend a few years negotiating with yourself while it keeps on keeping on until we have to act on what it shows us. There is no objective criterion (that I know of) that can be demonstrated to someone else in this matter. But to the person who has received the intimation about it, it eventually becomes relentless. And at some point, it becomes freedom, because there is no more conflict with it involved.
No, I'm not at that point. But today, I can at least understand being at that point.
Sometimes, I still wonder if Thelema, with its HGAs and True Wills and Holy Books and magick is not about some great truth, but is simply another way of organizing sensory and mental data. But then I get caught up in paradoxes about what prompts the quest, why there is this archetypal concept of order, why certain events synchronized with magical work I did, and so on. I am, frankly, stuck with memories of numerous experiences that contradict my 'rational' analysis of my own condition. Too much skepticism becomes a self-sustaining lie.
Things simply work more productively and more joyfully in my life if I include the 'irrational' and don't try to analyze everything down to neural impulses, hormonally driven instincts, traumas produced by my evil seventh grade biology teacher (restriction be ever unto the snarky creep in the name of Babalon) and my toilet training as a toddler. I can't get past the idea of accepting all this metaphysical and Qabalistic stuff as a necessary postulate for surviving this life as me. Rejecting it as romanticism might appeal to my self-styled 'rational' side but it is also dishonest towards everything else I am.
So, I don't have your answers. Those are some of mine.
93 93/93,
EM -
Well said EM. I'm not buying a word of it mind you... but you have the decency to not be selling it as such.
It seems to me that True Will as explained by Crowley, is his own unique invention. If there are older concepts that exactly the same and not just similar I would be pleased to know them for further insight.
Also it seems to me throughout Crowley's life, at times he was at times at odds with his True Will as he understood it. It didn't bring him, from what I've read, the freedom from conflict you have explained it would.
True Will just seems a lot like the Queen of Cups...
"Her image is of extreme purity and beauty, with infinite subtlety; to see the Truth of her is hardly possible, for she reflects the nature of the observer in great perfection."
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93
Pardon me whilst I interject.
This is good! You are absolutely correct, that in Crowley's context (and many others who share in his particular cosmology) the idea of True Will is a somewhat more esoteric concept. It suffices to say that True Will is NOT:
"
a. Diligent purposefulness; determination: an athlete with the will to win.
b. Self-control; self-discipline: lacked the will to overcome the addiction.- A desire, purpose, or determination, especially of one in authority: It is the sovereign's will that the prisoner be spared.
- Deliberate intention or wish: Let it be known that I took this course of action against my will.
- Free discretion; inclination or pleasure: wandered about, guided only by will.
- Bearing or attitude toward others; disposition: full of good will.
"
However, it is a logical fallacy to attempt to determine the nature of a thing by defining what it is not. The True Will may manifest in expression in many of the above things. In this sense it is approximately Primordial Will. e.g.: When Lance Armstrong gets on his bike and wins seven Tour de France races, that he seems physically and mentally constructed to do so, we might say that he is full of "diligent purposefulness, determination." That may be a result of him doing his True Will. It may not, but it isn't for me to determine.
"I'm very interested in the many parts of Crowley, and deeply interested in the Scientific Crowley, however the concept of the True Will seems like a religious concept such as the Soul... and you might understand that I get off the ferris wheel when that one comes around."
Personally, I have never looked at True Will as being a religious idea. Certainly a little more esoteric than the dictionary definition, granted, but there are plenty of concrete ideas to stand on in a scientific mode. The idea that the dictionary definitions can be seen as an expression of the True Will in some cases gives us a place to begin. It is said that the True Will must be discovered to be done. Now that implies that there is a process of discovery which some may call Magick, and others may call life. There is a set of operators which form a construct which can lead one to the discovery of the True Will.
I would assert that the discovery of that True Will by the individual is at least unmistakable to the individual, and probably recognizable to others.
"Let me put it another way. Who's authority do we have it on, that there is a True Will that each of us have? Why do we believe him? Please speak up if you've found your TW and can educate me further on this concept, but if you haven't, aren't you dogmatically following someone's position on faith?
"I don't believe so. We cite many so called facts and definitions from dictionaries and encyclopedias and internet articles often. That doesn't imply "dogmatic following." Science itself requires its own form of dogma in order to provide itself with an axiomatic leg to stand on. Question everything! But in order to do so, one must understand what one is questioning, and the method by which such questioning is done.
" I think the man of Faith says something like, I just know, and you'll never convince me otherwise that there is a God."
"
"True enough. Faith leads invariably to conviction. The scientist or mathematician with his theorem and proof is a variation of this. The True Will of some men leads them toward God and a life of faith... the True Will of other towards science and a life of reason. In either case, awareness of that Will and the strength to do it are great achievements, and the fertile ground in which more great achievements grow.
Just my handful of cents.
93/93
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I appreciate the interjection of a new perspective peregrinus93. Please continue to share.
From your post I didn't learn anything new to help me better understand TW and I believe this is my own fault.
For example, when you say that:
"In this sense it is approximately Primordial Will"
that doesn't add anything to my understanding because I don't know what Primorial Will is and will probably have a tough time understanding that one as well if it's just as esoteric.
You say that you've never looked at TW as a religious idea... how do you look at it? Please explain. I don't understand when you say:
"there are plenty of concrete ideas to stand on in a scientific mode"
Please share some. For example you talk about citing "so called facts"... I guess I missed those. Please share.
Perhaps we should return to what you said earlier in your post:
"However, it is a logical fallacy to attempt to determine the nature of a thing by defining what it is not. "
Maybe you can provide a definition of what it is?
I'm tring to make sense from your cents, so please send more my way.
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Scarecrow, 93,
One last comment from me:
"Also it seems to me throughout Crowley's life, at times he was at times at odds with his True Will as he understood it. It didn't bring him, from what I've read, the freedom from conflict you have explained it would."
Crowley was the *first *Thelemite. I think that is often overlooked. I don't personally see him as the "finished Aeonic product." His job, if you will, was to make every fumble, stumble and blunder, record it, and ensure everyone knew about it. That includes groaners like his recently quoted comments on the joys of being a pre-Civil War slave in the US South. I see his doing all that screwing up as a key part of him fulfilling his TW. What we knowabout him in his later years sounds like he had serenity come over him in his last decade or so. Not everybody gets that.
93 93/93,
EM