A Thelemic position on "climate change"?
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There was a thread here on global warming alarmism (and a controversial BBC documentary about it), but I can't now find it. Is the "General Discussion" sub-forum now being pruned to keep only the most recent posts?
@Jim Eshelman said
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@Oliver P said
"How does the current obsessional worry about “climate change” square with Thelema?"You can't do your True Will as a being who elected to incarnate as a member of the human race on this planet unless the planet is habitable."
Although I agree with this general idea (putting aside belief in conscious incarnation), I worry that it sets up a logical straw man: i.e., "all global warming skeptics are rooting for the planet to become uninhabitable," or whatnot. Personally, I'm all for conservation, sustainability, recycling, and also reducing our dependence on fossil fuels. I just don't see any real evidence that carbon dioxide is a "pollutant," or that human-generated sources of CO2 make anything like a dent in global temperatures.
The science is far from settled...
Steve
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All of our "climatic" troubles appear to be the result of living in the moment. The world seeming vast and plentiful - who thought it would even be possible to strip the land entirely? It is still something we have not managed to do.
In what we would like to call modern times, there has come a realization that resources are finate. Certainly there have been warnings of such from the begining, alas no one fears the tiger until it is growling in their face.
Inevitably rising to the question of when our "progress" needs to be balanced out by degregation. At least of the world around us, as there is (n)ever the fortified island of the self.
The problem which arises is how to stop this machine that is kicked into full gear. There are those, of course, who do not want to see it stoped. The general feeling of the unknown that often grips people. Sprikled with the apathetic and those whom as the profound question "Why?" stand silent.
You could be a monkey, toss a wrench. Bringing it to a sudden stop could be just as dangerous as letting the cycle run its course. Brining it down slowly - is it too late ? Time is the only one who ever has any real answers.
The climate system, the entire living organism the Earth (as I tend to see it) is not as easily predicted as we like. Previously mentioned, there are the hosts of possibilities that could occur in the blink of an eye. Many of the things which we possibly have an effect on, that effect is small; perhaps being able to speed something up by a few thousand years. A period of time that is difficult to wrap the human mind around, yet is nothing to the speck of dust we float upon.
So ends another tagent to the secant.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Oliver P said
"How does the current obsessional worry about “climate change” square with Thelema? "You can't do your True Will as a being who elected to incarnate as a member of the human race on this planet unless the planet is habitable."
Perhaps its the true will of some to die? (Everyone dies so certainly death must be a part of this will?) Perhaps we can incarnate as different entities if the human vessels die out? This earth will die out eventually - and most likely the human race - does that mean we arent doing our true will?
"I think there are few issues in our time more crucial than this. It deserves our strongest and most concentrated attention."
All hail prophet Al Gore. I certainly believe that there are problems with our over consumption of fossil fuels etc. but does it really deserve our strongest and most concentrated attention and not poverty, famine, death, war, etc.?
"
No, that's a pretty ignorant statement. For one, it presupposes things about an individual's True Will that may or may not be true. "Didnt you just do that above?
"(And it also focuses on pretty petty acts under the banner of these being 'True Will.' "
Didnt you just say waht you said he presupposed a line above?
"I think you are also missing the real nature of sacrifice and confusing it with the Christian idea.
It is most reasonable to assume that those incarnated as human beings on this planet have elected to use this species in this place as the vehicle of their fulfillment."
Is that reasonable to assume? See same arguments above... wouldnt we, under your notions of incarnation, be able to incarnate in other vessels (especially since humanity had a beginning, has drastically changed, and has an end)?
"Therefore, it is most supportive of the True Will of more or less everyone you know to preserve this planet as a habitable place."
Is it everyones true will to live as long as possible? Suppose there was an unavoidable natural catastrophe that wiped out humans - would that mean we werent doing our True Wills?
"Exactly! And "the poor and sad" is a wonderfully apt description of those who selfishly (and almost maliciously) waste a planet."
Whats so bad about selfishness? I think some humanitarian-compassionate Green religion creeped into your 'Thelema' somewhere...
IAO131
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Aum418, 93,
"Quote:
Exactly! And "the poor and sad" is a wonderfully apt description of those who selfishly (and almost maliciously) waste a planet.
*Whats so bad about selfishness? I think some humanitarian-compassionate Green religion creeped into your 'Thelema' somewhere... *"
I don't like saying any perspective is bad - not on a public forum, anyway. But I can't imagine comprehending my selfhood without reference to things that appear to be other than 'me'. The physical environment is one means I have of grasping what my individual zone of activity is all about. In fact, I'd find the idea of True Will meaningless without other people to annoy and challenge me, or a physical world to limit and redirect my wilder flights of fancy.
A lot of Green philosophy, with its self-righteous posturing and guilt-making, makes me cringe and grind my molars. I just find my sense of selfishness is inescapably conditioned by the material plane of the planetary ecosphere as well as the psychological plane where I encounter other people, and that this ongoing dialogue seems to be a necessity for spiritual evolution.
I can't be the Hadit I am without reference to Nuit. I'd like to be the Fool or the Magician, but my address is in Tav.
93 93/93,
EM
93 93/93,
EM
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@Aum418 said
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Perhaps its the true will of some to die? (Everyone dies so certainly death must be a part of this will?) Perhaps we can incarnate as different entities if the human vessels die out? This earth will die out eventually - and most likely the human race ..."Who cares. What I care is that people who continue trashing the planet realize what they are doing, and don't ruin it for those who want to stay alive and do their Will.
Part of being a thelemite is that one doesn't interfere with the Will of others... and polluting the planet is interfering with the Will of others.@Aum418 said
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"I think there are few issues in our time more crucial than this. It deserves our strongest and most concentrated attention."
All hail prophet Al Gore. I certainly believe that there are problems with our over consumption of fossil fuels etc. but does it really deserve our strongest and most concentrated attention and not poverty, famine, death, war, etc.?
"My opinion is that trashing the planet as well as poverty + famine + war are the same problem.
"Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby there cometh hurt."
So therefore, the most selfish person will look after the welfare of humanity.
@Aum418 said
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"Therefore, it is most supportive of the True Will of more or less everyone you know to preserve this planet as a habitable place."
Is it everyones true will to live as long as possible? Suppose there was an unavoidable natural catastrophe that wiped out humans - would that mean we werent doing our True Wills?"
What is your point here? I just don't get what you are trying to say.
@Aum418 said
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Exactly! And "the poor and sad" is a wonderfully apt description of those who selfishly (and almost maliciously) waste a planet."I think some humanitarian-compassionate Green religion creeped into your 'Thelema' somewhere..."
Isn't Nature an aspect of the Divine?
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@Aum418 said
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"I think there are few issues in our time more crucial than this. It deserves our strongest and most concentrated attention."All hail prophet Al Gore."
I'd probably agree with that. (Not the sarcasm, just the words.)
"I certainly believe that there are problems with our over consumption of fossil fuels etc. but does it really deserve our strongest and most concentrated attention and not poverty, famine, death, war, etc.?"
With the risk being that, in the lifetime of people currently living, the earth will approach an uninhabitable state, addressing those conditions actually does address poverty, famine, and death directly; and attention to it just might be a way to reduce war.
"
"It is most reasonable to assume that those incarnated as human beings on this planet have elected to use this species in this place as the vehicle of their fulfillment."Is that reasonable to assume? See same arguments above... wouldnt we, under your notions of incarnation, be able to incarnate in other vessels (especially since humanity had a beginning, has drastically changed, and has an end)?"
I didn't say we couldn't, and in fact I hold that we have, do, and will. I was merely addressing those who, by incarnating on this planet, have expressed in action their will to be incarnated on this planet.
I was intentionally circumventing a particular doctrine that Crowley expressed quite purposefully in a prominent place - I'm uncertain where the boundary is on confidentiality in a certain matter. I think I can prudently say, though, that in Crowley's reformulation of O.T.O. he presumed a will to use the human species on this planet as the biological vehicle through which we are expressing our Will. He built the system to further that choice, and included penalties intended to remove that right and capability for those who violated their oaths. It was in the spirit of that point of view that I originally wrote on this thread.
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@Edward Mason said
"Aum418, 93,
"Quote:
Exactly! And "the poor and sad" is a wonderfully apt description of those who selfishly (and almost maliciously) waste a planet.
*Whats so bad about selfishness? I think some humanitarian-compassionate Green religion creeped into your 'Thelema' somewhere... *"
I don't like saying any perspective is bad - not on a public forum, anyway. But I can't imagine comprehending my selfhood without reference to things that appear to be other than 'me'. The physical environment is one means I have of grasping what my individual zone of activity is all about. In fact, I'd find the idea of True Will meaningless without other people to annoy and challenge me, or a physical world to limit and redirect my wilder flights of fancy."
I dont see how this conflicts with the short line I wrote above... Your conflict and activity is completely coherent with the idea that humanitarianism need not enter the picture. Although I dont necesarily agree that True Will needs other people (especially since that idea requires duality through-and-through) or the physical world (if there are any other worlds for possible consciousness).
"A lot of Green philosophy, with its self-righteous posturing and guilt-making, makes me cringe and grind my molars. I just find my sense of selfishness is inescapably conditioned by the material plane of the planetary ecosphere as well as the psychological plane where I encounter other people, and that this ongoing dialogue seems to be a necessity for spiritual evolution."
Perhaps the problem is that I dont believe in 'spiritual evolution.' I dont think anything needs to be perfected - everything's perfect and we just need to realize that. Certainly your sense of selfishness and everything else is conditioned by malkuth and all of its diversity but thats no argument against anything really, but a simple observation.
@Metzareph said
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@Aum418 said
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Perhaps its the true will of some to die? (Everyone dies so certainly death must be a part of this will?) Perhaps we can incarnate as different entities if the human vessels die out? This earth will die out eventually - and most likely the human race ..."Who cares. What I care is that people who continue trashing the planet realize what they are doing, and don't ruin it for those who want to stay alive and do their Will.
Part of being a thelemite is that one doesn't interfere with the Will of others... and polluting the planet is interfering with the Will of others."No offense but thats ridiculous - then breathing is interfering with the wills of others (especially those insects adn microbes you are mercilessly slaughtering without 'realizing what you are doing.') My owning a house infringes on the right of others to live there - my buying of food prevents others from eating it - my transportation to places prevents others from using that energy and it somewhat pollutes the world. Its just a matter of degrees. You say 'who cares' but you really do care. If you actually understand the thought-experiements/questions I raised then youd realize that your answer is exactly the type of someone who 'cares.' I dont like to repeat myself so Ill just refer you back ot the questions you failed to answer in the quote.
"
@Aum418 said
""I think there are few issues in our time more crucial than this. It deserves our strongest and most concentrated attention."
All hail prophet Al Gore. I certainly believe that there are problems with our over consumption of fossil fuels etc. but does it really deserve our strongest and most concentrated attention and not poverty, famine, death, war, etc.?
"My opinion is that trashing the planet as well as poverty + famine + war are the same problem.
"Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby there cometh hurt.""
"Dont confuse the planes."
This is akin to saying all diseases are the same and so they all require one solution because, well, 'let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing.' See how that doesnt work?
"So therefore, the most selfish person will look after the welfare of humanity. "
I wouldnt deny that since selfish means the ego being aggrandized which means desiring to preserve mind and body and health and wealth, etc. which require an interdependent existence. Forgive me if I dont see the Will to Life as fundamental to the Thelemic Will (why exclude Will to Death?)
"
@Aum418 said
""Therefore, it is most supportive of the True Will of more or less everyone you know to preserve this planet as a habitable place."
Is it everyones true will to live as long as possible? Suppose there was an unavoidable natural catastrophe that wiped out humans - would that mean we werent doing our True Wills?"
What is your point here? I just don't get what you are trying to say."
Obviously not - perhaps because I wasnt clear enough or perhaps because these thoughts are so alien to your thought-system that you simply cant fathom... The simple point is this: the idea "it is most supportive of the True Will of more or less everyone you know to preserve this planet as a habitable place" was brought up and then I brought up questions that challenge this idea. Is it really most supportive of the True Will... etc etc?
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@Aum418 said
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"
Exactly! And "the poor and sad" is a wonderfully apt description of those who selfishly (and almost maliciously) waste a planet."I think some humanitarian-compassionate Green religion creeped into your 'Thelema' somewhere..."
Isn't Nature an aspect of the Divine?"
I would say so - I would say its coterminous with it since Im somewhat of a pantheist - but that doesnt mean anything. The Divine doesnt need your help, nor does Nature. If Earth exploded Nature wouldnt blink - if our entire galaxy exploded Nature wouldnt blink. Where did you ever get the notion that we need to preserve earth to help nature OR the divine?
"Nature is wasteful; but how well She can afford it!
Nature is false; but I'm a bit of a liar myself.
Nature is useless; but then how beautiful she is!
Nature is cruel; but I too am a Sadist." - Book of Lies ch.79IAO131
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Aum418 said
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"I think there are few issues in our time more crucial than this. It deserves our strongest and most concentrated attention."All hail prophet Al Gore."
I'd probably agree with that. (Not the sarcasm, just the words.)"
As I rightly suspected... (and why I said it in the first place).
"
"I certainly believe that there are problems with our over consumption of fossil fuels etc. but does it really deserve our strongest and most concentrated attention and not poverty, famine, death, war, etc.?"With the risk being that, in the lifetime of people currently living, the earth will approach an uninhabitable state, addressing those conditions actually does address poverty, famine, and death directly; and attention to it just might be a way to reduce war."
In the sense that all things are interconnected, sure. I doubt that the earth will be in an uninhabitable state in 50 years - thats just plain alarmism. And so what if it is? Like I said in about 10 different forms: Is Earth really necessary for True Will?
"
"
"It is most reasonable to assume that those incarnated as human beings on this planet have elected to use this species in this place as the vehicle of their fulfillment."Is that reasonable to assume? See same arguments above... wouldnt we, under your notions of incarnation, be able to incarnate in other vessels (especially since humanity had a beginning, has drastically changed, and has an end)?"
I didn't say we couldn't, and in fact I hold that we have, do, and will. I was merely addressing those who, by incarnating on this planet, have expressed in action their will to be incarnated on this planet.
I was intentionally circumventing a particular doctrine that Crowley expressed quite purposefully in a prominent place - I'm uncertain where the boundary is on confidentiality in a certain matter. "
I know about the 'miracle of incarnation' etc etc and I dont htink it deserves confidentiality especially since its quite explicit in places like the Gnostic Mass, Liber ALeph, etc. but he nowhere says that this Earth is the only reason. In fact the miracle of incarnation is simply for "experience"... "love under will"... the fulfillment of possibilities. This includes (explicitly in Liber AL) the 'experience of death.' This does not mean that 'incarnating on earth' necessarily means earth should be supported (nor does it imply reincarnation I should add).
"I think I can prudently say, though, that in Crowley's reformulation of O.T.O. he presumed a will to use the human species on this planet as the biological vehicle through which we are expressing our Will. He built the system to further that choice, and included penalties intended to remove that right and capability for those who violated their oaths. It was in the spirit of that point of view that I originally wrote on this thread."
I think thats getting around the issue - people on this earth are obviously here. Does that mean they wouldnt incarnate in some other form if Earth never formed, in the future when it will inevitably die? You ignored all those questions in my post to you so I hope you will forgive me in repeating myself.
It seems this is somewhat your reasoning, "We incarnated on Earth to fulfill our True Wills - we need to preserve the Earth to fulfill our True Wills because we cant fulfill our True Wills without the Earth." I am questioning that. Couldnt it be the True Will of people to die (as everyone does)? In that case, couldnt it be the True Will of people to die from global warming/climate change? Are people who are hit by tsunamis not doing their True Wills? Are people who are casualities in war not doing their True Wills, even if they protested against it futilely? Could it possibly be someones True Will to incarnate to experience the union of love under will and not to preserve some malkuthian orb - one amongst countless others? Is it not the true will of humanity to die out or change like everything before it? Is it not the true will of earth to break apart or be consumed by the closest star like all other planetary formations in the past?
IAO131
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93,
Aum418 wrote:
"Perhaps the problem is that I dont believe in 'spiritual evolution.' I dont think anything needs to be perfected - everything's perfect and we just need to realize that."
I had problems with that line even when I first heard it, and that must have been when Nixon was still the Prez. If I had five bucks for every repetition I've heard since, I'd be running my own upmarket ashram by now.
Sure, the universe is just fine thank you, but very few of us behave as if it is. Bringing ourselves to comprehend this fact as a full realization is what I understand spiritual evolution to be. It requires effort, unfortunately. In fact, 'evolution' might be the wrong word here, because it carries a connotation of passive response to environmental pressures rather than describing an activity calling for sustained awareness. What we need is will - and Will.
93 93/93,
EM
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Agreed. "Just realizing it", means what? Having the conceptual thought that it is possible? I don't think so. Knowing there is something called chocolate, and drinking chocolate and knowing what it is, are two different things. Realizing goes beyond the mind, just as tasting the chocolate does.
chrys333 -
93 Aum418,
@metzareph said
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Who cares. What I care is that people who continue trashing the planet realize what they are doing, and don't ruin it for those who want to stay alive and do their Will.
Part of being a thelemite is that one doesn't interfere with the Will of others... and polluting the planet is interfering with the Will of others."@Aum418 said
"
No offense but thats ridiculous - then breathing is interfering with the wills of others (especially those insects adn microbes you are mercilessly slaughtering without 'realizing what you are doing.') My owning a house infringes on the right of others to live there - my buying of food prevents others from eating it - "Of course I'm not saying that. What you are saying here is that the Will of one sentient being conflicts with the Will of another. Not the case. I'm saying that because it conflicts, it cannot be True Will.
@Aum418 said
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...my transportation to places prevents others from using that energy and it somewhat pollutes the world. Its just a matter of degrees. "To continue with the same train of thought, a smoker (ideally) should not be puffing smoke in the face of a non-smoker.
@Aum418 said
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You say 'who cares' but you really do care. If you actually understand the thought-experiements/questions I raised then youd realize that your answer is exactly the type of someone who 'cares.' I dont like to repeat myself so Ill just refer you back ot the questions you failed to answer in the quote. "OK.
Perhaps its the true will of some to die?
Perhaps yes. Who am I to say what is the True Will of another.Perhaps we can incarnate as different entities if the human vessels die out?
Yes, why not?This earth will die out eventually - and most likely the human race
Change is stability. All must end at some point.But you are really asking to make a different point. That if the planet has to come to an end, and the human race will also come to an end, why should we have to slow the process (something like fate or whatnot)? Right?
@metzareph said
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My opinion is that trashing the planet as well as poverty + famine + war are the same problem."Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby there cometh hurt.""
@Aum418 said
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"Dont confuse the planes."This is akin to saying all diseases are the same and so they all require one solution because, well, 'let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing.' See how that doesnt work? "
Of course it doesn't work that way. You have to understand what the problem is. What I meant to say with the quote is that the root of the problem is the same, not the consequences.
If you eat poisonous food, you would have stomach ache + fever + convulsions. One thing is causing multiple symptoms.
Also, I agree that one shouldn't confuse the planes, but the planes are connected. The whole theory of magick is based on this concept.@Aum418 said
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The simple point is this: the idea "it is most supportive of the True Will of more or less everyone you know to preserve this planet as a habitable place" was brought up and then I brought up questions that challenge this idea. Is it really most supportive of the True Will... etc etc?"Oh, OK. Very democratic. Rise your hand if you think the planet should be trashed.
My opinion is that it would be more productive to first help people discover their True Will.
To the point I was making above, we are here to experience boundaries. Nature acts as the space in which we can experience those boundaries.You say:
@Aum418 said
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Where did you ever get the notion that we need to preserve earth to help nature OR the divine? "It raises an interesting issue. I don't think we need to preserve the earth more than we need to preserve our body. Our body is Nature. We are Nature. Failing to understand this is what is obscuring the issue.
We need this body to experience the physical plane and interact with the environment. -
Ok... this post might veer off course a big (tangent to the tangent for the geometrically inclined).
My impression is that the universe is infinite in size. Being so, there are infinite "Earths." Were this particular one to become uninhabitable ( or, even, say destroyed) it would not disrupt the Will to incarnate in what we collectivly call Human form ( that of a Star, as I like to say).
Essentially it could be trashed and the universe would carry on without notice (unless some one happens to notice). The choice taken arbitrary to ones perspective. Thusly, can I make known my own choice ( there is only one Law, recall).
To respect the Earth, is to respect our self. All one may seek to posses is of her bounty, as even thoughts require her form. We call her a whore because there is always a price. Those who throw her away have the greatest bounty, and I respect that. They are far richer men than I.
I have nothing to give away, there is nothing that is mine.
Another meditation brought to you by the broadcasters here at Uni_Verse!
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doing my will of preserving and informing people about the state the earth, ends when i go to work at a drug store, double bagging peoples "necessities" made from coal burning china and i get so bent on global warming because the majority of people do not give a damn and think everything is fine. maybe it is fine, and we will all die and in another billion years another planet will enjoy a life like ours. perhaps the earth was not meant to last.
i think the ultimate goal of everyone of earth should be to get along for fucks sake and figure shit out together. so simple, even a child would understand, until they get older and ignorant. embrace the innocent child! but go ahead, think for yourself.
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"Well, to begin with, nobody, and I mean nobody, can talk a junkie out of using. You can talk to 'em for years but sooner or later they're gonna get ahold of something. Maybe it's not dope. Maybe it's booze, maybe it's glue, maybe it's gasoline. Maybe it's a gunshot to the head. But something. Something to relieve the pressures of their everyday life, like having to tie their shoes. "
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@Edward Mason said
"93,
Aum418 wrote:
"Perhaps the problem is that I dont believe in 'spiritual evolution.' I dont think anything needs to be perfected - everything's perfect and we just need to realize that."
I had problems with that line even when I first heard it, and that must have been when Nixon was still the Prez. If I had five bucks for every repetition I've heard since, I'd be running my own upmarket ashram by now.
Sure, the universe is just fine thank you, but very few of us behave as if it is. Bringing ourselves to comprehend this fact as a full realization is what I understand spiritual evolution to be. It requires effort, unfortunately. In fact, 'evolution' might be the wrong word here, because it carries a connotation of passive response to environmental pressures rather than describing an activity calling for sustained awareness. What we need is will - and Will.
93 93/93,
EM"
If your notion of 'spiritual evolution' is simply coterminous with 'coming to see the perfection of the universe,' then I cant help but agree... although I must say that not many people view 'spiritual evolution' in this way.
IAO131
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@Metzareph said
"Of course I'm not saying that. What you are saying here is that the Will of one sentient being conflicts with the Will of another. Not the case. I'm saying that because it conflicts, it cannot be True Will."
Matters what you view as 'conflict.' Many people I argue with view that as conflict - I view it as good fun. Extend this to people who, at least in the past, felt 'good' or 'right' about killing others. Although the lamb views the wolf as a predator and his actions as full of conflict, the wolf just likes a good ol' tasty lamb. Who's to say?
"To continue with the same train of thought, a smoker (ideally) should not be puffing smoke in the face of a non-smoker.
"Ideally to the non-smoker... The smoker might think that the non-smoker's whining is infringing on his right to do what he wills where he wills it.
"Perhaps its the true will of some to die?
Perhaps yes. Who am I to say what is the True Will of another.Perhaps we can incarnate as different entities if the human vessels die out?
Yes, why not?This earth will die out eventually - and most likely the human race
Change is stability. All must end at some point.But you are really asking to make a different point. That if the planet has to come to an end, and the human race will also come to an end, why should we have to slow the process (something like fate or whatnot)? Right?"
Sure - agreed on all points. I was working with Jim's idea that we should do sometihng about climate change BECAUSE we incarnated on this earth and it is our True Wills to be on this Earth becuase we incarnated here therefore we should do something about climate change...
"Of course it doesn't work that way. You have to understand what the problem is. What I meant to say with the quote is that the root of the problem is the same, not the consequences.
If you eat poisonous food, you would have stomach ache + fever + convulsions. One thing is causing multiple symptoms.
Also, I agree that one shouldn't confuse the planes, but the planes are connected. The whole theory of magick is based on this concept."Matters what you mean by planes. The 'plane' of above the Abyss never has the same answers as teh 'plane' below the Abyss, i.e. of Reason. To answer a Supernal Question with Reason is to confuse the planes, no matter how 'connected' they are.
"Oh, OK. Very democratic. Rise your hand if you think the planet should be trashed."
I dont want that, but I dont want the opposite - I just want things to be as they are, etc.
"My opinion is that it would be more productive to first help people discover their True Will."
Seems like a good idea...
"To the point I was making above, we are here to experience boundaries. Nature acts as the space in which we can experience those boundaries. "
We're here to experience boundaries? As in restrictions? As in... what? We're here to experience. Boundaries are included in that, I guess, but that seems like a weird way to say it.
"You say:
@Aum418 said
"
Where did you ever get the notion that we need to preserve earth to help nature OR the divine? "It raises an interesting issue. I don't think we need to preserve the earth more than we need to preserve our body. Our body is Nature. We are Nature. Failing to understand this is what is obscuring the issue.
We need this body to experience the physical plane and interact with the environment."If our body is Nature, and part of that body is ailing, shouldn't we get rid of it? If our body is Nature and Nature is frickin' huge if not infinite, would it matter if Earth was preserved? Our body is constantly dying (at the cellular level) and regenerating... why not Nature as a whole?
In response to the fellow below you who says we should 'respect' the Earth... why does 'respect' mean to preserve things? If we have a garden and we respect the garden (The Solar System?), wouldnt we not care if the weeds died (Earth)? Does Nature 'respect' anything? If we are Nature why should we impose human ideals on something that doesnt care about them?
IAO131
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@Aum418 said
"If our body is Nature, and part of that body is ailing, shouldn't we get rid of it? If our body is Nature and Nature is frickin' huge if not infinite, would it matter if Earth was preserved? Our body is constantly dying (at the cellular level) and regenerating... why not Nature as a whole?
In response to the fellow below you who says we should 'respect' the Earth... why does 'respect' mean to preserve things? If we have a garden and we respect the garden (The Solar System?), wouldnt we not care if the weeds died (Earth)? Does Nature 'respect' anything? If we are Nature why should we impose human ideals on something that doesnt care about them?"
I see Thelema as largely about respect. Respect for ourselves, for each other, for the medium through which we move (our environment-as-a-whole), etc. I don't think that respect necessarily equals preservation though. I think respect means awareness, acknowledgement, mindfulness. To respect is to worship, essentially. It is to see that object of respect as the body of Nuit. Why should we respect? Why should we devote each and every action to Her? Those two are the same question, I think. And the answer that comes quickest to my mind is "because it is what we are capable of." To make every act an act of love and worship, to make every act the FIAT of a God, is to have the highest respect, is to do your will.
Does "nature" respect? Mu.
It flows ceaselessly, seamlessly, absolutely perfectly. The human behavior sometimes called "respect", or sometimes called "doing your will" is a reflection of the behavior of the universe. I believe that through this kind of action, a human is capable of flowing ceaselessly, seamlessly, absolutely perfectly. To respect is to behave like the universe. To behave like the universe obviously does not mean simply preservation.I think this thread would do well to pay attention to the analogy of the Earth with your own body. Imagine your body is ill. You have not been very mindful about the limitations of your body, and have been for the past few years ignorantly dumping poisons into your blood stream, filling your muscles and organs with unconscious tensions, inhaling nicotine and tar because you think it makes you feel good, and taxing your nerves without even being aware of it. Now you are getting really ill, and may be near death. Perhaps this was a result of your lack of awareness- mindfulness- respect- for your body's needs (or perhaps it's just a 'natural cycle'). Ok now, what to do, what to do?
We could sit around and pontificate on whether or not it actually matters if our body wastes away or not. Hell! I'll just reincarnate in another one!
Or, we could learn to know and do our true will, which will certainly include dying at some point, but I don't think it will mean dying due to lack of respect for ourselves or our body. I mean, Do what thou wilt = Love. And appearances seem to say to me that what our civilization is doing to our planet is about as loving as what a rapist does to a woman when he feels threatened by her power.
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@bryan said
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@Aum418 said
"If our body is Nature, and part of that body is ailing, shouldn't we get rid of it? If our body is Nature and Nature is frickin' huge if not infinite, would it matter if Earth was preserved? Our body is constantly dying (at the cellular level) and regenerating... why not Nature as a whole?In response to the fellow below you who says we should 'respect' the Earth... why does 'respect' mean to preserve things? If we have a garden and we respect the garden (The Solar System?), wouldnt we not care if the weeds died (Earth)? Does Nature 'respect' anything? If we are Nature why should we impose human ideals on something that doesnt care about them?"
I see Thelema as largely about respect. Respect for ourselves, for each other, for the medium through which we move (our environment-as-a-whole), etc. I don't think that respect necessarily equals preservation though. I think respect means awareness, acknowledgement, mindfulness. To respect is to worship, essentially. It is to see that object of respect as the body of Nuit. Why should we respect? Why should we devote each and every action to Her? Those two are the same question, I think. And the answer that comes quickest to my mind is "because it is what we are capable of." To make every act an act of love and worship, to make every act the FIAT of a God, is to have the highest respect, is to do your will.
Does "nature" respect? Mu.
It flows ceaselessly, seamlessly, absolutely perfectly. The human behavior sometimes called "respect", or sometimes called "doing your will" is a reflection of the behavior of the universe. I believe that through this kind of action, a human is capable of flowing ceaselessly, seamlessly, absolutely perfectly. To respect is to behave like the universe. To behave like the universe obviously does not mean simply preservation.I think this thread would do well to pay attention to the analogy of the Earth with your own body. Imagine your body is ill. You have not been very mindful about the limitations of your body, and have been for the past few years ignorantly dumping poisons into your blood stream, filling your muscles and organs with unconscious tensions, inhaling nicotine and tar because you think it makes you feel good, and taxing your nerves without even being aware of it. Now you are getting really ill, and may be near death. Perhaps this was a result of your lack of awareness- mindfulness- respect- for your body's needs (or perhaps it's just a 'natural cycle'). Ok now, what to do, what to do?
We could sit around and pontificate on whether or not it actually matters if our body wastes away or not. Hell! I'll just reincarnate in another one!
Or, we could learn to know and do our true will, which will certainly include dying at some point, but I don't think it will mean dying due to lack of respect for ourselves or our body. I mean, Do what thou wilt = Love. And appearances seem to say to me that what our civilization is doing to our planet is about as loving as what a rapist does to a woman when he feels threatened by her power."
I believe that to respect something, you must not deny a part of it. Love encompasses all things - including hate. Part of Nature is destruction, rape, murder, overcoming, death, transformation & change, so to deny these is to disrespect Nature.
IAO131
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@Aum418 said
"I believe that to respect something, you must not deny a part of it. Love encompasses all things - including hate. Part of Nature is destruction, rape, murder, overcoming, death, transformation & change, so to deny these is to disrespect Nature."
I agree. In addition, I have this feeling that there is something relatively unique about humans, and that is that we have the capability for both harmony and dissonance. That is, balance and imbalance. Respect and ignorance. Thelema and restriction. Lawfulness and sin. I know that we have the capability for both, but it is a certain amount of non-logical intuition that has led me to believe that most other observable systems in our universe are not as capable as we are of dissonance, imbalance, ignorance, restriction, "sin". Asteroids destroy, ducks engage in gang-rape, chimpanzees murder each other, everything overcomes, dies, transforms and changes. I can't say much for these guys except that their behaviors seem to be generally harmonious with the way their environments work.
This topic has given me pause, and I realize it is certainly not as black & white as "either your behaving harmoniously or you're not." It's all probably far more complex than I can imagine, c'est la vie.
But I think the best we can do is look to ourselves, and judge whether our own individual behavior is respectful or not. Whether we are doing our will or not. Because hate, rape, murder, etc exist in the world, of course does not mean that we should all carry out such behavior in order to "balance" things. I don't think it is in my nature to hate, rape, or murder. In order to do such things, I would probably have to lose respect, and throw myself into restriction. Some, however, may be able to hate, rape and murder with respect in their hearts. I have never knowingly met such a person. But for some reason this seems to me to be just as likely as someone who knowingly and willfully destroys their body with respect in their heart.