A Thelemic position on "climate change"?
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93,
Aum418 wrote:
"Perhaps the problem is that I dont believe in 'spiritual evolution.' I dont think anything needs to be perfected - everything's perfect and we just need to realize that."
I had problems with that line even when I first heard it, and that must have been when Nixon was still the Prez. If I had five bucks for every repetition I've heard since, I'd be running my own upmarket ashram by now.
Sure, the universe is just fine thank you, but very few of us behave as if it is. Bringing ourselves to comprehend this fact as a full realization is what I understand spiritual evolution to be. It requires effort, unfortunately. In fact, 'evolution' might be the wrong word here, because it carries a connotation of passive response to environmental pressures rather than describing an activity calling for sustained awareness. What we need is will - and Will.
93 93/93,
EM
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Agreed. "Just realizing it", means what? Having the conceptual thought that it is possible? I don't think so. Knowing there is something called chocolate, and drinking chocolate and knowing what it is, are two different things. Realizing goes beyond the mind, just as tasting the chocolate does.
chrys333 -
93 Aum418,
@metzareph said
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Who cares. What I care is that people who continue trashing the planet realize what they are doing, and don't ruin it for those who want to stay alive and do their Will.
Part of being a thelemite is that one doesn't interfere with the Will of others... and polluting the planet is interfering with the Will of others."@Aum418 said
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No offense but thats ridiculous - then breathing is interfering with the wills of others (especially those insects adn microbes you are mercilessly slaughtering without 'realizing what you are doing.') My owning a house infringes on the right of others to live there - my buying of food prevents others from eating it - "Of course I'm not saying that. What you are saying here is that the Will of one sentient being conflicts with the Will of another. Not the case. I'm saying that because it conflicts, it cannot be True Will.
@Aum418 said
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...my transportation to places prevents others from using that energy and it somewhat pollutes the world. Its just a matter of degrees. "To continue with the same train of thought, a smoker (ideally) should not be puffing smoke in the face of a non-smoker.
@Aum418 said
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You say 'who cares' but you really do care. If you actually understand the thought-experiements/questions I raised then youd realize that your answer is exactly the type of someone who 'cares.' I dont like to repeat myself so Ill just refer you back ot the questions you failed to answer in the quote. "OK.
Perhaps its the true will of some to die?
Perhaps yes. Who am I to say what is the True Will of another.Perhaps we can incarnate as different entities if the human vessels die out?
Yes, why not?This earth will die out eventually - and most likely the human race
Change is stability. All must end at some point.But you are really asking to make a different point. That if the planet has to come to an end, and the human race will also come to an end, why should we have to slow the process (something like fate or whatnot)? Right?
@metzareph said
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My opinion is that trashing the planet as well as poverty + famine + war are the same problem."Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby there cometh hurt.""
@Aum418 said
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"Dont confuse the planes."This is akin to saying all diseases are the same and so they all require one solution because, well, 'let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing.' See how that doesnt work? "
Of course it doesn't work that way. You have to understand what the problem is. What I meant to say with the quote is that the root of the problem is the same, not the consequences.
If you eat poisonous food, you would have stomach ache + fever + convulsions. One thing is causing multiple symptoms.
Also, I agree that one shouldn't confuse the planes, but the planes are connected. The whole theory of magick is based on this concept.@Aum418 said
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The simple point is this: the idea "it is most supportive of the True Will of more or less everyone you know to preserve this planet as a habitable place" was brought up and then I brought up questions that challenge this idea. Is it really most supportive of the True Will... etc etc?"Oh, OK. Very democratic. Rise your hand if you think the planet should be trashed.
My opinion is that it would be more productive to first help people discover their True Will.
To the point I was making above, we are here to experience boundaries. Nature acts as the space in which we can experience those boundaries.You say:
@Aum418 said
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Where did you ever get the notion that we need to preserve earth to help nature OR the divine? "It raises an interesting issue. I don't think we need to preserve the earth more than we need to preserve our body. Our body is Nature. We are Nature. Failing to understand this is what is obscuring the issue.
We need this body to experience the physical plane and interact with the environment. -
Ok... this post might veer off course a big (tangent to the tangent for the geometrically inclined).
My impression is that the universe is infinite in size. Being so, there are infinite "Earths." Were this particular one to become uninhabitable ( or, even, say destroyed) it would not disrupt the Will to incarnate in what we collectivly call Human form ( that of a Star, as I like to say).
Essentially it could be trashed and the universe would carry on without notice (unless some one happens to notice). The choice taken arbitrary to ones perspective. Thusly, can I make known my own choice ( there is only one Law, recall).
To respect the Earth, is to respect our self. All one may seek to posses is of her bounty, as even thoughts require her form. We call her a whore because there is always a price. Those who throw her away have the greatest bounty, and I respect that. They are far richer men than I.
I have nothing to give away, there is nothing that is mine.
Another meditation brought to you by the broadcasters here at Uni_Verse!
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doing my will of preserving and informing people about the state the earth, ends when i go to work at a drug store, double bagging peoples "necessities" made from coal burning china and i get so bent on global warming because the majority of people do not give a damn and think everything is fine. maybe it is fine, and we will all die and in another billion years another planet will enjoy a life like ours. perhaps the earth was not meant to last.
i think the ultimate goal of everyone of earth should be to get along for fucks sake and figure shit out together. so simple, even a child would understand, until they get older and ignorant. embrace the innocent child! but go ahead, think for yourself.
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"Well, to begin with, nobody, and I mean nobody, can talk a junkie out of using. You can talk to 'em for years but sooner or later they're gonna get ahold of something. Maybe it's not dope. Maybe it's booze, maybe it's glue, maybe it's gasoline. Maybe it's a gunshot to the head. But something. Something to relieve the pressures of their everyday life, like having to tie their shoes. "
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@Edward Mason said
"93,
Aum418 wrote:
"Perhaps the problem is that I dont believe in 'spiritual evolution.' I dont think anything needs to be perfected - everything's perfect and we just need to realize that."
I had problems with that line even when I first heard it, and that must have been when Nixon was still the Prez. If I had five bucks for every repetition I've heard since, I'd be running my own upmarket ashram by now.
Sure, the universe is just fine thank you, but very few of us behave as if it is. Bringing ourselves to comprehend this fact as a full realization is what I understand spiritual evolution to be. It requires effort, unfortunately. In fact, 'evolution' might be the wrong word here, because it carries a connotation of passive response to environmental pressures rather than describing an activity calling for sustained awareness. What we need is will - and Will.
93 93/93,
EM"
If your notion of 'spiritual evolution' is simply coterminous with 'coming to see the perfection of the universe,' then I cant help but agree... although I must say that not many people view 'spiritual evolution' in this way.
IAO131
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@Metzareph said
"Of course I'm not saying that. What you are saying here is that the Will of one sentient being conflicts with the Will of another. Not the case. I'm saying that because it conflicts, it cannot be True Will."
Matters what you view as 'conflict.' Many people I argue with view that as conflict - I view it as good fun. Extend this to people who, at least in the past, felt 'good' or 'right' about killing others. Although the lamb views the wolf as a predator and his actions as full of conflict, the wolf just likes a good ol' tasty lamb. Who's to say?
"To continue with the same train of thought, a smoker (ideally) should not be puffing smoke in the face of a non-smoker.
"Ideally to the non-smoker... The smoker might think that the non-smoker's whining is infringing on his right to do what he wills where he wills it.
"Perhaps its the true will of some to die?
Perhaps yes. Who am I to say what is the True Will of another.Perhaps we can incarnate as different entities if the human vessels die out?
Yes, why not?This earth will die out eventually - and most likely the human race
Change is stability. All must end at some point.But you are really asking to make a different point. That if the planet has to come to an end, and the human race will also come to an end, why should we have to slow the process (something like fate or whatnot)? Right?"
Sure - agreed on all points. I was working with Jim's idea that we should do sometihng about climate change BECAUSE we incarnated on this earth and it is our True Wills to be on this Earth becuase we incarnated here therefore we should do something about climate change...
"Of course it doesn't work that way. You have to understand what the problem is. What I meant to say with the quote is that the root of the problem is the same, not the consequences.
If you eat poisonous food, you would have stomach ache + fever + convulsions. One thing is causing multiple symptoms.
Also, I agree that one shouldn't confuse the planes, but the planes are connected. The whole theory of magick is based on this concept."Matters what you mean by planes. The 'plane' of above the Abyss never has the same answers as teh 'plane' below the Abyss, i.e. of Reason. To answer a Supernal Question with Reason is to confuse the planes, no matter how 'connected' they are.
"Oh, OK. Very democratic. Rise your hand if you think the planet should be trashed."
I dont want that, but I dont want the opposite - I just want things to be as they are, etc.
"My opinion is that it would be more productive to first help people discover their True Will."
Seems like a good idea...
"To the point I was making above, we are here to experience boundaries. Nature acts as the space in which we can experience those boundaries. "
We're here to experience boundaries? As in restrictions? As in... what? We're here to experience. Boundaries are included in that, I guess, but that seems like a weird way to say it.
"You say:
@Aum418 said
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Where did you ever get the notion that we need to preserve earth to help nature OR the divine? "It raises an interesting issue. I don't think we need to preserve the earth more than we need to preserve our body. Our body is Nature. We are Nature. Failing to understand this is what is obscuring the issue.
We need this body to experience the physical plane and interact with the environment."If our body is Nature, and part of that body is ailing, shouldn't we get rid of it? If our body is Nature and Nature is frickin' huge if not infinite, would it matter if Earth was preserved? Our body is constantly dying (at the cellular level) and regenerating... why not Nature as a whole?
In response to the fellow below you who says we should 'respect' the Earth... why does 'respect' mean to preserve things? If we have a garden and we respect the garden (The Solar System?), wouldnt we not care if the weeds died (Earth)? Does Nature 'respect' anything? If we are Nature why should we impose human ideals on something that doesnt care about them?
IAO131
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@Aum418 said
"If our body is Nature, and part of that body is ailing, shouldn't we get rid of it? If our body is Nature and Nature is frickin' huge if not infinite, would it matter if Earth was preserved? Our body is constantly dying (at the cellular level) and regenerating... why not Nature as a whole?
In response to the fellow below you who says we should 'respect' the Earth... why does 'respect' mean to preserve things? If we have a garden and we respect the garden (The Solar System?), wouldnt we not care if the weeds died (Earth)? Does Nature 'respect' anything? If we are Nature why should we impose human ideals on something that doesnt care about them?"
I see Thelema as largely about respect. Respect for ourselves, for each other, for the medium through which we move (our environment-as-a-whole), etc. I don't think that respect necessarily equals preservation though. I think respect means awareness, acknowledgement, mindfulness. To respect is to worship, essentially. It is to see that object of respect as the body of Nuit. Why should we respect? Why should we devote each and every action to Her? Those two are the same question, I think. And the answer that comes quickest to my mind is "because it is what we are capable of." To make every act an act of love and worship, to make every act the FIAT of a God, is to have the highest respect, is to do your will.
Does "nature" respect? Mu.
It flows ceaselessly, seamlessly, absolutely perfectly. The human behavior sometimes called "respect", or sometimes called "doing your will" is a reflection of the behavior of the universe. I believe that through this kind of action, a human is capable of flowing ceaselessly, seamlessly, absolutely perfectly. To respect is to behave like the universe. To behave like the universe obviously does not mean simply preservation.I think this thread would do well to pay attention to the analogy of the Earth with your own body. Imagine your body is ill. You have not been very mindful about the limitations of your body, and have been for the past few years ignorantly dumping poisons into your blood stream, filling your muscles and organs with unconscious tensions, inhaling nicotine and tar because you think it makes you feel good, and taxing your nerves without even being aware of it. Now you are getting really ill, and may be near death. Perhaps this was a result of your lack of awareness- mindfulness- respect- for your body's needs (or perhaps it's just a 'natural cycle'). Ok now, what to do, what to do?
We could sit around and pontificate on whether or not it actually matters if our body wastes away or not. Hell! I'll just reincarnate in another one!
Or, we could learn to know and do our true will, which will certainly include dying at some point, but I don't think it will mean dying due to lack of respect for ourselves or our body. I mean, Do what thou wilt = Love. And appearances seem to say to me that what our civilization is doing to our planet is about as loving as what a rapist does to a woman when he feels threatened by her power.
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@bryan said
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@Aum418 said
"If our body is Nature, and part of that body is ailing, shouldn't we get rid of it? If our body is Nature and Nature is frickin' huge if not infinite, would it matter if Earth was preserved? Our body is constantly dying (at the cellular level) and regenerating... why not Nature as a whole?In response to the fellow below you who says we should 'respect' the Earth... why does 'respect' mean to preserve things? If we have a garden and we respect the garden (The Solar System?), wouldnt we not care if the weeds died (Earth)? Does Nature 'respect' anything? If we are Nature why should we impose human ideals on something that doesnt care about them?"
I see Thelema as largely about respect. Respect for ourselves, for each other, for the medium through which we move (our environment-as-a-whole), etc. I don't think that respect necessarily equals preservation though. I think respect means awareness, acknowledgement, mindfulness. To respect is to worship, essentially. It is to see that object of respect as the body of Nuit. Why should we respect? Why should we devote each and every action to Her? Those two are the same question, I think. And the answer that comes quickest to my mind is "because it is what we are capable of." To make every act an act of love and worship, to make every act the FIAT of a God, is to have the highest respect, is to do your will.
Does "nature" respect? Mu.
It flows ceaselessly, seamlessly, absolutely perfectly. The human behavior sometimes called "respect", or sometimes called "doing your will" is a reflection of the behavior of the universe. I believe that through this kind of action, a human is capable of flowing ceaselessly, seamlessly, absolutely perfectly. To respect is to behave like the universe. To behave like the universe obviously does not mean simply preservation.I think this thread would do well to pay attention to the analogy of the Earth with your own body. Imagine your body is ill. You have not been very mindful about the limitations of your body, and have been for the past few years ignorantly dumping poisons into your blood stream, filling your muscles and organs with unconscious tensions, inhaling nicotine and tar because you think it makes you feel good, and taxing your nerves without even being aware of it. Now you are getting really ill, and may be near death. Perhaps this was a result of your lack of awareness- mindfulness- respect- for your body's needs (or perhaps it's just a 'natural cycle'). Ok now, what to do, what to do?
We could sit around and pontificate on whether or not it actually matters if our body wastes away or not. Hell! I'll just reincarnate in another one!
Or, we could learn to know and do our true will, which will certainly include dying at some point, but I don't think it will mean dying due to lack of respect for ourselves or our body. I mean, Do what thou wilt = Love. And appearances seem to say to me that what our civilization is doing to our planet is about as loving as what a rapist does to a woman when he feels threatened by her power."
I believe that to respect something, you must not deny a part of it. Love encompasses all things - including hate. Part of Nature is destruction, rape, murder, overcoming, death, transformation & change, so to deny these is to disrespect Nature.
IAO131
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@Aum418 said
"I believe that to respect something, you must not deny a part of it. Love encompasses all things - including hate. Part of Nature is destruction, rape, murder, overcoming, death, transformation & change, so to deny these is to disrespect Nature."
I agree. In addition, I have this feeling that there is something relatively unique about humans, and that is that we have the capability for both harmony and dissonance. That is, balance and imbalance. Respect and ignorance. Thelema and restriction. Lawfulness and sin. I know that we have the capability for both, but it is a certain amount of non-logical intuition that has led me to believe that most other observable systems in our universe are not as capable as we are of dissonance, imbalance, ignorance, restriction, "sin". Asteroids destroy, ducks engage in gang-rape, chimpanzees murder each other, everything overcomes, dies, transforms and changes. I can't say much for these guys except that their behaviors seem to be generally harmonious with the way their environments work.
This topic has given me pause, and I realize it is certainly not as black & white as "either your behaving harmoniously or you're not." It's all probably far more complex than I can imagine, c'est la vie.
But I think the best we can do is look to ourselves, and judge whether our own individual behavior is respectful or not. Whether we are doing our will or not. Because hate, rape, murder, etc exist in the world, of course does not mean that we should all carry out such behavior in order to "balance" things. I don't think it is in my nature to hate, rape, or murder. In order to do such things, I would probably have to lose respect, and throw myself into restriction. Some, however, may be able to hate, rape and murder with respect in their hearts. I have never knowingly met such a person. But for some reason this seems to me to be just as likely as someone who knowingly and willfully destroys their body with respect in their heart.
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93!
@Aum418 said
"Matters what you view as 'conflict.' Many people I argue with view that as conflict - I view it as good fun. Extend this to people who, at least in the past, felt 'good' or 'right' about killing others. Although the lamb views the wolf as a predator and his actions as full of conflict, the wolf just likes a good ol' tasty lamb. Who's to say? "
People can argue their views to the death and not understand a thing, right?
@Aum418 said
"Ideally to the non-smoker... The smoker might think that the non-smoker's whining is infringing on his right to do what he wills where he wills it."
Infringing on his right to do what he wills? Like blowing smoke on the face of somebody else?
Also, addiction is not True Will.
@Aum418 said
"Matters what you mean by planes. The 'plane' of above the Abyss never has the same answers as teh 'plane' below the Abyss, i.e. of Reason. To answer a Supernal Question with Reason is to confuse the planes, no matter how 'connected' they are. "
Truth transcends the planes.
@Aum418 said
"We're here to experience boundaries? As in restrictions? As in... what? We're here to experience. Boundaries are included in that, I guess, but that seems like a weird way to say it."
Well, boundaries as in limitations presented by the physical plane (and what is called the space-time continuum).
I didn't want to use the word restrictions because the thelemic knee-jerk reaction of "the word of sin is restriction" and missing the point.
But to grow, we need boundaries and limitations and the physical plane as well as nature, provides them for us.@Aum418 said
"I believe that to respect something, you must not deny a part of it. Love encompasses all things - including hate. Part of Nature is destruction, rape, murder, overcoming, death, transformation & change, so to deny these is to disrespect Nature. "
"Nature must not win the game, but she cannot lose.â ~C. Jung
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@AUM418 said
"If we are Nature why should we impose human ideals on something that doesnt care about them? "
The notions of care or lack of care, that we are or are not nature, that there is climate let alone change in it are human ideas.
@AUM418 said
"I believe that to respect something, you must not deny a part of it. Love encompasses all things - including hate. Part of Nature is destruction, rape, murder, overcoming, death, transformation & change, so to deny these is to disrespect Nature."
Look at the Hawk! With the Sun as his tail. We, we once flew like this - free of care and needing no more than a warm nest and a full belly. Perchance our intellect is more a burden than a blessing...
Instead, we have Physics. Where there are small infinites and large infinities. That is to say infinitely infinitely small infinities and infinitely infinitely large infinities.
Then, there are mathematicians who say: Infinity = Infinity
Some go as far as to call this the Law of Identity ( I personally disagree with the choice of words).Presupposing alternative infinities the Universe (not me, the other one) does not care. It would appear to be obvious that humans do, or why do at all? Reasonably speaking, the problem is one of a humans perspective.
To respect, is to be mind-ful of ones use. One could be un-mind-ful, but then you are a zombie and what do zombies do ? Why, they drool and shuffle about looking for minds!