correct order of elements
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I have worked extensively with these correspondences:
East: Water
West: Earth
North: Fire
South: AirNE: Spirit point (Sothis/Sirius)
These are non traditional.
Just remember that the Sun is the center of the Universe:-)
(So are you)93 93/93.'.
James
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@h2h said
"Your sequence surprises me - I may have to reconsider my understanding of subtle vs. gross. "
My apologies. I didn't link the first sentence to the second, so I listed them in reverse order. I've repaired this in my post above. Sorry for the confusion
"1. Does the grosser element control the subtler element or vice versa?"
The inner ultimately controls the outer.
"2. Can the 5 elements used in the LBRP be ranked in **hierarchical order **(like the sephiroths) from gross to subtle or, as the case may be, subtle to gross in a chain of causality? Or is the relationship between the four elements (earth, water, air, fire) **a circular one **in which they are equal to, and inter-mixing with each other, merely differing in properties, with all four being contained within spirit?"
Both are true in different contexts.
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@h2h said
"Does anyone have an opinion on the correct order of elements ... ? "
(A Quote):
"**The Four Elements **are relegated to the four directions. The "usual" western correspondences are
earth-green-east
fire-red-south
air-yellow-west
water-blue-northThe number four is supposed to be solid, stable, practical, and fixed. However, each culture seems to have its own version of these directions and correspondences, for example: The Mayan Arrangement, where east is red, north is white, west is blue, and south is yellow.
In fact, the four element system is slippery, malleable, and unstable due its ability to be manipulated. One may conveniently utilize the four directions, as long as one "agrees" with one's self about the correspondences.
Beware of the tendency to pick one set of correspondences, saying, "This is the true four-element configuration, and all others are in error."
The Five Elements are sometimes relegated to the four directions, plus one called Aethyr (or Spirit) in the center. Aethyr is defined as "the matrix, or space, within which the four elements manifest."
The problem with this arrangement is the same instability we encountered with the four elements - nothing has changed, except a fifth "element" has been added to the center.
The five elements can also be arranged in a pentagonal fashion. The problem with this arrangement is that it usually cannot be harnessed and used for practical purposes. The typical placement of the elements (like the 4 elements in a cross) is arbitrary.For efficient practicality, we must look to the Chinese version.
They call their system the five phases, implying that there is only one Chi, one energy, that undergoes five consecutive and recurring transformations (phases). The order of transformation is exact.
The five phases are :fire-red-consciousness
earth-yellow-mass (the physical body)
metal-white-intellect (western air is the same as the Chinese metal )
water-blue-will
wood-green-emotionsThis system stands supreme for interpreting phenomena in nature and in human beings, especially when used for medical diagnosis and treatment."
..................- The Principles of White Magic, 2007
In terms of ascending, the Chinese order is:
Earth > Wood > Air > Fire > Water - This would put Water (!) as the first or highest element, which is consistent with some schools of thought.However, this is merely academic, for it must always be remembered that "there is only one energy that undergoes five consecutive and recurring transformations or phases."
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Shachdar - can you explain the logic behind your sequence of elements?
Sphynx - in fact, I prefer the Chinese or Tibetan Buddhist system of elements as they seem to be the most practical and directly observable. Interesting that water would be considered the highest in some systems.
Jim - so the subtle ultimately controls the gross. Regarding the hierarchical vs. circular order of elements, the only context that interests me is how they relate to and constitute material phenomena.
In Tibetan Buddhism, for example, the subtler elements form the base of the grosser element - similar to the theory of emanations in which each sephira is composed of the emanations of the preceding sephiroths on the Tree. Thus in the outer dissolution, when earth withdraws into water, the secret sign is when you see a shimmering mirage. When water withdraws into fire, the secret sign is a haze with swirling wisps of smoke. When fire withdraws into air, the secret sign is shimmering red sparks dancing above an open fire, like fireflies, etc. All of these signs were always there, forming the base of consciousness, but it’s only when each of the elements withdraw that these signs become exposed and highlighted.
The Emerald Tablet lists the sequence of elements as follows:
- This is true and remote from all cover of falsehood.
- Whatever is below is similar to that which is above. Through this the marvels of the work of one thing are procured and perfected.
- Also, as all things are made from one, by the consideration of one, so all things were made from this one, by conjunction.
- The father of it is the sun, the mother the moon.
- The wind bore it in the womb. Its nurse is the earth, the mother of all perfection.
- Its power is perfected.
- If it is turned into earth,
- Separate the earth from the fire, the subtle and thin from the crude and coarse, prudently, with modesty and wisdom.
This ascends from the earth into the sky and again descends from the sky to the earth, and receives the power and efficacy of things above and of things below. - By this means you will acquire the glory of the whole world, and so you will drive away all shadows and blindness.
- For this by its fortitude snatches the palm from all other fortitude and power. For it is able to penetrate and subdue everything subtle and everything crude and hard.
- By this means the world was founded
- And hence the marvelous cojunctions of it and admirable effects, since this is the way by which these marvels may be brought about.
- And because of this they have called me Hermes Tristmegistus since I have the three parts of the wisdom and Philosophy of the whole universe.
- My speech is finished which I have spoken concerning the solar work.
Sun = fire
moon = water (?)
wind = air
earth = earth -
@h2h said
"4) The father of it is the sun, the mother the moon.
- The wind bore it in the womb. Its nurse is the earth, the mother of all perfection."
Holy crap -- the Formula of the Tetragrammaton is in the Emerald Tablet.
Not concealed at all; it's just there!
(Sorry for the content-free post... this just blew me away. I've known about both of these things for at least 20 years, and never made this obvious connection. Thanks for pointing this out, h2h!)
Steve
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@Modes said
"So why Crowley in his Liber V draft wrote that Hadit - the Sun is Malkuth & Kether and Nuith is Luna & Air?
So it is Fire, Air, the womb - Water, Earth?"Liber Reguli has its own sequence intentionally independent of any prior ones.
The main purpose of Reguli is to follow the formula Crowley was instructed by Rose to use in receiving Liber Legis: Break all the rules. Of course, it only has that virtue if one has fully internalized all the rules one is breaing.
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Independent?
So you changed your point of view about the Liber XXV element correlations to Bellow, Say, Whisper, Roar written in your article on Black Pearl? I.e. Earth, Air, Water, Fire? The sequience is the same as in Liber V final version.
To make myself clear - I am researching at the moment the 2 drafts of Liber V at hermetic.com. In the page at the begining Crowley(?) discusses various attributions to the Thelemic symbolism. I see it as general not Liber V specific. I.e. The Mark of the Beast is discussed and so Nuit is attributed to Luna and Air and Hadit to Kether and Malkuth. -
@Modes said
"Independent?
So you changed your point of view about the Liber XXV element correlations to Bellow, Say, Whisper, Roar written in your article on Black Pearl? I.e. Earth, Air, Water, Fire? The sequience is the same as in Liber V final version. "Yes, but that's derivative of Reguli. My comment stands so far as composition of Reguli is concerned. As MT&P was being completed for the printer, Crowley appears to have rushed a rewrite of the Star Ruby to conform to it in some respects.