Joining the A.'.A.'.
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Nope. That was kinda the last thing I can think to say to Froclown before saying the following:
Good luck with your new Second Life A.'.A.'. Order in the online Community of Gor...! May many Gorians come to know the health, joy, beauty, patience, endurance, determination, and balance that you embody...!
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
@Frater_AVV said
"Nope. That was kinda the last thing I can think to say to Froclown before saying the following:
Good luck with your new Second Life A.'.A.'. Order in the online Community of Gor...! May many Gorians come to know the health, joy, beauty, patience, endurance, determination, and balance that you embody...!"
Gotcha.
In addition to the above, I'll throw in the following:
Godspeed.
Love is the law, love under will.
Yours in LVX,
-M -
what when it comes down to it is the magister a master of, it is mysticism, and mysitcism is dissociation and disintigration of the ego, deconstruction of the mind.
Is it not the magus who is active in the world, who imposes actively, who evokes outwardly,and is master of Magick.
I wake no claim to that ability.
A debt myself quite well, and I very well know my motives and drives.
but all the mystical rhetoric of occultism must be cut through and the simple direct physical reality of it, discerned.
And the various versions of basically the quest story, including the slaying of the dragon, can not as far as I can tell be distinguished between. Be it Liber O as a neophyte, the piercing of paroketh, crossing the outer abyss, or any such thing.
I also fail to see what integrating oneself to live what you think is a healthy life has anything to do with it. What matters is having the experience and proving that the occult and esoteric are not bull shit, bit actually just people explaining REAL PHYSICAL reality than the most hardboiled materialist would accept, that if he merely understood the language their is nothing that Denette and Dawkins would find incompatible with their hard nosed atheism.
Thus the production of the experience, (the ritual cases a temporal lobe seizure that results in imagery that match the pre-described result). If one does the ritual and gets that result it proves that maybe those crazy old wizards in the middle ages, did actually know what they were talking about.
That is the point of doing magick, to prove that it is real to the world, and to find a place in the world to use it. (Not to help guide people through integrating their emotions and such ends psychologists worry about. They are very much wind chine hanging, soft speaking, vegan, don't harsh anyone's mellow, liberal hippie sorts) That in not my WILL, I prefer force and fire. I prefer fascism to democracy, Traditionalism to modernism.
I never sought out such experiences to take charge nor to learn to be passive and control my emotions, I sought one thing, to discern Truth and fact from confusion and lies. And to re-interpret the TRUTH in the terms of science.
The same as to prove bigfoot exists, does not mean I have to get in close and play cards with him. In fact I should hunt him down and kill him, for all to see, so no one can deny anymore.
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@Froclown said
"what when it comes down to it is the magister a master of, it is mysticism, and mysitcism is dissociation and disintigration of the ego, deconstruction of the mind. "
One general expects that the Master of the Temple is the master of himself or herself.
In practice, the grade represents one who, already being solidly established in the Knowledge & Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel (and the Magister's oath includes the commitment to continue in that K&C as an essential characteristic of the magistry), and whose ego center, thereafter, has lost itself in the universal. A consequence of this is that the routine workaday consciousness is Neshamah except where the Magister elects to use Ruach, Nephesh, and Guph (or any other magical tool crafted and consecrated over time). There are a number of psychological consequences of this shift, but the stable nature is characterized by "service without ego," by an essentially unthinking response to and execution of whatever streams from Chiah (the old school "perfect wife" fiction is an active reality with this mode of thought), etc.
"Is it not the magus who is active in the world, who imposes actively, who evokes outwardly,and is master of Magick."
One generally has this idea, at least for the eight classic Magi who are best known. And yes, the grade is more extroverted by nature. But it's essential characteristic is its identification with Chiah in its universal sense. "Remember the river" is the phrase that likely will bring one closest to understanding the approach to and fulfillment of that grade. The Magus is a particular distinguished from the universal of the Magister - a distinctive choice isolated from the prior acceptance of all choices indifferently.
I think one of the most fruitful ways for students to understand the actuality of the Magus is that He or She is positioned "further upstream" than the rest of humanity, such that what flows through the Magus is the larger stream that eventually branches into the distinguished life-streams of individuals. Therefore, what is rooted in the Magus is what is common to the lifestream of all others.
"but all the mystical rhetoric of occultism must be cut through and the simple direct physical reality of it, discerned. "
I agree concerning the clarify of language. But not all of what is important here is physical at all. In fact, the greater part of it isn't.
"And the various versions of basically the quest story, including the slaying of the dragon, can not as far as I can tell be distinguished between."
Basically true IMHO. But the Quest story is the tale of attaining Adepthood, not Mastery.
"I also fail to see what integrating oneself to live what you think is a healthy life has anything to do with it."
It's a practical matter. The body has to be sufficiently healthy to endure both the labors and the successes - which sometimes are strenuous. The energies moving through a body at different junctures are stronger than most human nervous systems (and their nonphysical counterparts) can endure.
"What matters is having the experience and proving that the occult and esoteric are not bull shit"
That's a political agenda. Some of us don't really give a shit about such matters, though some others of us do.
"bit actually just people explaining REAL PHYSICAL reality than the most hardboiled materialist would accept"
On this we differ. The most hardboiled materialist isn't open to the most important areas of the work, and frankly doesn't have a mind that is at all ready to undertake it. They'd just create a great number of lies and distortions that would slow, rather than speed, the spread of attainment.
Now, that's not necessarily true of the most hardboiled empiricist! But if one adamantly holds that the physical universe is the controlling (and possibly exclusive) aspect of reality, then one simply won't be able to seriously do this work until that pair of blinders is blown off its hinges.
And that's OK, because this work isn't for everyone. The Law is for all, but the intentional hyper-evolution of oneself (so-called) is still only going to be for a certain percentage who are ready. (Or, rather, those that we call "not ready" are actually in earlier stages of the work.)
"That is the point of doing magick, to prove that it is real to the world"
Possibly that's your point in doing it. It certainly isn't mine.
"That in not my WILL, I prefer force and fire. I prefer fascism to democracy, Traditionalism to modernism. "
Some pitch, some catch, some play the field. Whatever.
"I never sought out such experiences to take charge nor to learn to be passive and control my emotions, I sought one thing, to discern Truth and fact from confusion and lies. And to re-interpret the TRUTH in the terms of science. "
Very Ruach-based. If that's still your goal, then there is no longer any confusion about your alleged Magistry.
"The same as to prove bigfoot exists, does not mean I have to get in close and play cards with him. In fact I should hunt him down and kill him, for all to see, so no one can deny anymore."
At which point, of course, Bigfoot no longer will live and the whole thing is moot.
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Let us know when you finally decide to stop talking and actually do it..
Would be very interested in hearing how all of this works out
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He's doing it as we speak...! He just needs some more Experience Points so that he can become a Priest first. Really, experience points are the only thing holding him back. 'Cause... see... in an online gaming environment, they like to make sure you've earned the right to do whatever it is you're going to try to do... Wouldn't want to claim to be some kind of leader too early in the game...! Shyah! That would be like ...so freakin' lame...
Yep... Should be getting those experience points pretty soon! In the mean time, he's gotta keep translating those A.'.A.'. rituals into the Gorian language and godforms. I figure that'll kind of serve as the backbone of the Gorian A.'.A.'.. It's genius what he's got going on, really.
I mean, a lot of people don't get it. But I do. He's had his glorification on the mountaintop, and now he's returning to his people with his Word. If he were Bolivian, he would return to the people of Bolivia, but he's not. He lives in Second Life. He lives in Gor. And so he returns to them - the Prophet of Gor!
I just hope they understand who and what he is so that they may greet him in the manner of which he has proved himself worthy!
Personally, I have no qualms in supporting him fully...!
Go, Thou Prophet of Gor unto thy people...!
Proclaim unto them, oh Gorian Prince, thy message that they too may trip balls.
Proclaim that they too may have seizures in their temporal lobes...!
They are a hard and obstinate people, your people.
They will say, "But what profit? What profit if we too trip off our balls and see strange sights and experience the lightening in the brain? What benefit?"
To this, ye shall answer, "That ye may know it for FACT!"
Then shall the people in their obstinance say to you, "Know what for FACT...?"
To this shall ye say, "That all mystical experience involves the physical functioning of the brain on a chemical level."
And they shall say to thee, "No Shit. This we know."Or perhaps they shall speak unto thee the horrid word and spell of negation, "Nuh-uh...!"
And if this is so, you shall not fear. You shall not turn aside.
Thou shalt say, "Yuh-HUH..!" to them in thy Glorious Wrath..!
"Yuh-HUH..! Fools! Trip thine own balls and see...!"
And if they shall again say unto thee,
"Nuh-uh...! Thou art a druggy burnout, proclaiming thy folly from a fried and crispy mind...!"
Then shalt thou say to them, "Nuh-UH...! Nuh-UH...! Nuh-UH...!"
Never cease in this thy denial...!
"Nuh-UH...! Nuh-UH...! Nuh-UH...!"
Thou knowest the manner.
In this manner, continue forever, for no other proofs of thy attainment shall ever be required of thee,
except the volume and strength of this thy denial...!
"Nuh-UH...! Nuh-UH...! Nuh-UH...!"Until they weary of the Prophet of Gor and go their wicked way unto the beautiful and wanton avataresses of Second Life, who will talk dirty to them whilst they touch themselves.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
"Wouldn't want to claim to be some kind of leader too early in the game...! Shyah! That would be like ...so freakin' lame... "
n00b! f34r my l337 skillz! I attack the darkness!
...I feel dirty.
"Go, Thou Prophet of Gor unto thy people...!
Proclaim unto them, oh Gorian Prince, thy message that they too may trip balls.
Proclaim that they too may have seizures in their temporal lobes...!
They are a hard and obstinate people, your people.
They will say, "But what profit? What profit if we too trip off our balls and see strange sights and experience the lightening in the brain? What benefit?"
To this, ye shall answer, "That ye may know it for FACT!"
Then shall the people in their obstinance say to you, "Know what for FACT...?"
To this shall ye say, "That all mystical experience involves the physical functioning of the brain on a chemical level."
And they shall say to thee, "No shit. This we know."Or perhaps they shall say to thee the words of negation, "Nuh-uh...!"
And if this is so, you shall not fear. You shall not turn aside.
Thou shalt say, "Yuh-HUH..!" to them in thy Glorious Wrath..!
"Yuh-HUH..! Fools! Trip thine own balls and see...!"
And if they shall again say unto thee,
"Nuh-uh...! Thou art a druggy burnout, proclaiming thy folly from a fried and crispy mind...!"
Then shalt thou say to them, "Nuh-UH...! Nuh-UH...! Nuh-UH...!"
Never cease in this denial...!
"Nuh-UH...! Nuh-UH...! Nuh-UH...!"
Thou knowest the manner.
In this manner, continue forever, for no other proofs of thy attainment shall ever be required of thee,
except the volume and strength of this your denial...!
"Nuh-UH...! Nuh-UH...! Nuh-UH...!"Until they weary of the Prophet of Gor and go their wicked way unto the beautiful and wanton avataresses of Second Life, who will talk dirty to them whilst they touch themselves."
Can I get a hallelujah! Yay verily and whatnot. I want to print this out and turn it to pamphlet form to distribute on the street corner in front of the local Mega Book Store like the rest of the weekend sidewalk prophets!
But that ain't my gig.
Love is the law, love under will.
Yours in LVX (and mighty amusement),
-M -
ok first of all Second life is not a game, its a virtual environment, its basically a location. It is no different than if you choose to meet in a field somewhere, At the field you can choose to play football, or have a card came, discuss philosophy, or have business negotiations. (anyone who does not want to take serious your purpose can be exiled or chastised into conformity,) Another thing that can be done on an empty field is than one can build stuff, which includes homes and businesses. One can create an economy based on trading stuff for other things. One can even in SL create a personal seal, to prevent counterfeit products and coins. And in order to ensure than one coin is official and another not, we go back to the fact that rules are enforceable my banishment or muting which in to say alienation by refusal to do business with or converse with those who break the laws. (unfortunately it is not possible to physically confine or bind a persons Avatar against their will, and physical slights do not real harm. This of course means that adherence to the law is even more on the shoulders of personal responsibility and self-control, which is a very Thelemic situation, their is no ultimate grace or guilt-damnation, one must obey the law because one WILLs it to be so, not because of fear of punishment, but rather love of ones role in the social system.
Second, I did not created to second life A.'.A.'. I was asked to join by its founder, and she advanced me quickly and, I came here expressing that I had a vague outline of how I might, reform her rag-tag group, into something that better resembles the ideal order, so than perhaps, once the bugs got worked out and working together I could develop the Second Life system into something worthy of official association with the Invisible order. (and all I get is guff about titles, semantics, and of rectification of names, some of which like the name of the SL group A.'.A.'. was not in my control I was charged with tho task of magister, to tend to the garden of initiates, but the "magus" still owned the group charter.
And this satire that I seek to be like a Gorean version of Nietzsche's zarathustra is way off base.
I see Gor as more than Second Life, its a social-political style based on large part Plato's republic, but it also holds a great deal of pre-modernism, and it is not tainted by what Nietzsche called slave resentment morality (where the ruling class in make weak my the values of the servent class, like Equality, sacrifice, and a devalue of life for the ofterlife) These modern slave mentalities are exactly what Thelema opposes, they are Set whom Horus defeats to restore the Solar Values that are so well preserved by Gorean political structure. Which is also a structure that adequately approximates the Golden age of the traditionalist school, so often referenced by Julius Evola.As such I see potentially a very strong alliance between Thelema and Gorean political system, especially the Gorean White caste (the initiates) the books have little to say on them, and this their is plenty of room to write the rituals and practices by which these white caste priests become initiated into their esoteric path, and the potential they hold in representing the Transcendent to the lower caste, in the sense of the Traditionalist King who is on the equal plane with the "God" who is both Priest and Warrior, Braman and Kashatrya.
The idea is to work it out on second life, where some of the problems of buying an actual plot of land, worry about climate, crops cycles, and the federal laws etc, are put aside and the internal social dynamics worked out. Before any attempts to build physically are attempted. Second like is but the scrying mirror, and the pentacle, a tool of Yesod to mix images out of Hod and Netzatch before forging the best possible result in malkuth. (one might as well object to the use of mathematics to work out solutions before jumping into working directly with ones hands)
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@Froclown said
"Maybe I should work on evoking at this point, I never was very good at it."
Seems to me that you're fairly well versed in evoking anger and derision. I understand you were even banned from a philosophy site.
Out of curiosity what to you do for a living? You're what, 28 now? Already a master of the universe. That's cool. And second life sounds sweet. I totally bet that those real macho Goreans in the books would be spending all day on the internet playing that - it sounds right in line with their lifestyle.
Anyway, I'm enjoying the thread. Keep the megalomania a' coming.
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Yes I just had a revelation, you are right, second life, nay not just second life the whole internet is just a game, its a waste of time one could be using to to do real life things, important things like umm?
Like discovering a form of numerology where one name works out to a number one likes.
or organize ones sock drawer on the I-ching of the day
or play with tarot cards until you almost know which card will show up next,
or spend hours memorizing which pentagrams to draw to ward of figments of your imagination, while you sit in your dark room all day muttering to yourself and stroking your wand in hopes that some divine genie will come out of your spunk and grant you wishes.Yes, I see it clear now, traditional methods of magick are a much more practical use of ones time, cyberspace is just a childish game for nerds and losers.
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@Froclown said
"Yes I just had a revelation, you are right, second life, nay not just second life the whole internet is just a game, its a waste of time one could be using to to do real life things, important things like umm?
Like discovering a form of numerology where one name works out to a number one likes.
or organize ones sock drawer on the I-ching of the day
or play with tarot cards until you almost know which card will show up next,
or spend hours memorizing which pentagrams to draw to ward of figments of your imagination, while you sit in your dark room all day muttering to yourself and stroking your wand in hopes that some divine genie will come out of your spunk and grant you wishes.Yes, I see it clear now, traditional methods of magick are a much more practical use of ones time, cyberspace is just a childish game for nerds and losers."
Yes. Exactly. All those things, just like Second Life, are complete wastes of time, energy, and life unless they create real, measurable benefits to a person's Real Life - which is why you tend to stay pretty impervious to all other attacks except the one that you're simply a druggy who tripped too hard after an obsession with qabalah.
What actual results has your "enlightenment" had on you but to make you even more obsessed with Second Life than you already were...? You have a very difficult time answering the question from this perspective.
You tend to resist any sort of standard being applied to you to see if you're even functioning like a healthy balanced human being. Our improved adaptability and functionality in the Real World is the only true proof of our advancement. I repeat, what actual real-world results has your "enlightenment" had on you but to make you even more obsessed with Second Life...?
I think you have a real hard time casting off the stereotype of a brain-burnt, socially-retarded, computer geek. And that's simply a real weakness for a person who wishes to prove something "of worth" to the world.
Yet you seek to teach... Let me ask you, seriously... What about your life is worth other people emulating...? If people learn from you, will they end up bettering their own lives?
If you do not care about such things, then why do you even seek to teach...? Why do you need some kind of "official stamp" or some kind of "authority"?
You either care about how what you teach affects people's lives, or you don't. If you don't, you seriously don't deserve ANY authority to teach. If you DO care, you shouldn't mind going through the exact freaking same curriculum and tests that you're talking about giving to others.
So... what the hell do you want to do all this for...?
Save yourself a ton of trouble and just do your little social experiment in Second Life without officially calling it anything important or authoritative sounding. But if you need actual people going through the full Initiatory process just to carry out your little experiment, then you just asking a whole hell of a lot. Here's what you need to do as I see it:
Assessment of your own development in real, measurable, "physical," and "beneficial" terms is essential. Not everyone is willing to potentially sacrifice their sanity as it seems you have been. If you're going to ask others to do it the way you have, you'd better be able to demonstrate some real benefit. Otherwise, you're just another druggy crackpot.
You need to exhibit some kind of credentials showing yourself reliable to perform such an experiment. Namely, that of teaching A.'.A.'. curriculum based on your own experience of it in a similarly supervised environment. As well as some kind of academic credentials demonstrating your ability to perform empirical research.
Thirdly, you need a large group of subject who are both interested in real Initiation and also doing this whole social experiment in Second Life. You seem to act like there are a lot of people who are going to take every bit of what you are suggesting just as seriously as you do. That's simply asking a lot from anyone as you can see from the response you've received here. I can only imagine a very few people being interested, and only further members of this typically highly socially retarded subculture. Your sample being biased in that direction, I'm not sure what any result yielded would "prove" about people who weren't obsessed with Second Life.
All that said, I'll return to my other point, without some kind of real, measurable benefit, you'll never be able to answer the accusation that you didn't just take a* little too much...* That's your main weakness.
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Hi, I remarked that the Exempt Adept's karma must have been equalled out in this Life to get "beamed up" to Binah as it were, to which Jim concurred. I just wanted to state Crowley expounds upon this same idea in his Liber Thisharb (CMXIII) very well:
"2. ...The Abyss is passed by virtue of the mass of the Adept and his karma. Two forces compel him: (1) the attraction of Binah, (2) the impulse of his karma; and the ease and even the safety of his passage depend on the strength and direction of the latter."
No, "mass" doesn't mean that obese people have it easier! I think it may refer a bit to incarnation, that it may take several reincarnations to attain even to the purity of Exempt Adept, not sure.
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@Wizardiaoan said
"I remarked that the Exempt Adept's karma must have been equalled out in this Life to get "beamed up" to Binah as it were, to which Jim concurred."
Actually, while this remains true of the 7=4, the occurence is part of the initiation into 6=5.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Actually, while this remains true of the 7=4, the occurence is part of the initiation into 6=5."
Sorry Jim I have not been able to aquire your A.A. book yet, I am interested as to what major factors you postulate cause the 4-3 abyss event? Further do you think it can be self-willed or self-began? I do not hold this view, it seems rather a "grace of God," that one can only purify towards. Do you think the karma is completely burnt up in 6=5? While I see Geburah as going toward a burning up of both the karma and ego, I think Chesed continues this work via charity, selfless service, renunciation, etc.
I posit at the end of Chesed one attains to a shining perfection of the microcosmic self, a little circle, which proves to be irresistable bait for the macrocosm. It thus seems to me that neither the karma nor the ego is completely balanced until that point, which is itself still precarious due to the separate self being by nature illusion, or rather not having a solid basis (like a tight rope walker). It seems then that only after the attainment to 8=3 can one really rest upon a firm basis, being unshakably united with Nuit which paradoxically may be unity with the flux rather than the stable. It seems to be a critical transformation, night and day compared to the lower spheres. How would you rate its immensity?
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@Wizardiaoan said
"Sorry Jim I have not been able to aquire your A.A. book yet, I am interested as to what major factors you postulate cause the 4-3 abyss event?"
You won't find that in the book
It intentionally stops at 7=4 (for reasons stated therein). And the answer here seems really easy except there's a bit of a technicality at this particular jump.The transition of Grade is easy enough to explain. If the question were, "What are the conditions that cause the Adeptus Exemptus 7=4 to become an Adeptus Exemptus Major [aka Babe of the Abyss]," the answer is easy: Complete the Task of the Exempt Adept.
But, once a Babe of the Abyss, what causes the next step? (There are several distinct gradations here. You haven't been quite clear which of them you mean.) The job of the Babe of the Abyss is primarioy to abide in the Abyss. "One Star in Sight" describes this particularly well, and I refer you to it.
"Further do you think it can be self-willed or self-began? I do not hold this view, it seems rather a "grace of God," that one can only purify towards."
I lean more in your direction on this, but don't think it's a binary question. For one thing, I deny what I think you mean by "grace." For another, I see so many causes that are quite intentional, just not in the same time frame; but the time frame doesn't matter a lot for this one. I very much like Crowley's reference to momentum. One has been moving toward this eventuality for many years, and the factors affecting one's momentum seem definitive. Yet there many be no clear sense of intention at the time - I think, in general, there would not be (and hasn't been in any fully successful case known to me). But I dance around without taking a firm position on that.
Crowley wrote in Confessions, "I cannot even say that I crossed the Abyss deliberately. I was hurled into it by the momentum of the forces which I had called up." I think that's a good statement of it.
"Do you think the karma is completely burnt up in 6=5?"
I wouldn't necessarily say "burnt up." The first part is as a 5=6 Within who is working the Path of Lamed. The task of this Path is described as follows: "the equilibration of himself, especially as to his passions, so that he has no preference for any one course of conduct over another, and the fulfilment of every action by its complement, so that whatever he does leaves him without temptation to wander from the way of his True Will." This is a good description so far as it goes. In the actual working of the Path, all the vectors of one's karma are worked (i.e., are working one). The above description is true by the time one becomes a 6=5, and then an extraordinary thing results: The Major Adept lives in a universe the very fabric of which is woven from the vectors of karma. (I don't know any other way to say it.) One is consciously living in intimate connection to the menstruum of one's karma. By continuing in the above task, concurrent with that of Mem (which is the continuing conscious conforming of oneself, with increasing intimacy, to the essence of the Angel), one progresses. There are many times in the grade when I could feel the vectors of karma equilibrated so that there was no impulse to move one way or the other, and choice (which was to be made in conformity with the Living Word of the Angel) was at hand. (Etc. etc. and blah blah, I suppose.)
The Task of the 6=5 includes the Path of Kaph. This is an equilibration or completion of Lamed in some respects. It gives one objectification on the Gunas and their revolutions in life. I think this is a significant help in maintaining the "karma neutrality." But, again, this is still the work of the 6=5; one who attains 7=4 has completed it.
"While I see Geburah as going toward a burning up of both the karma and ego, I think Chesed continues this work via charity, selfless service, renunciation, etc."
From the point of view of karma, those are "maintenance activities," at least for the most part.
"I posit at the end of Chesed one attains to a shining perfection of the microcosmic self, a little circle, which proves to be irresistable bait for the macrocosm."
I rather like your poetry for this event (and take this only as poetry, not as an objective description of anything particular that happens). My preferred imagery is that one finds onself standing atop the flat, square surface of a (hopefully) balanced-built pyramid, complete but for its upper part; standing here at night, under naked heavens of the body of Nuit, in mindful mystery and awaiting the landing of the completing part.
"It thus seems to me that neither the karma nor the ego is completely balanced until that point, which is itself still precarious due to the separate self being by nature illusion,"
Not illusin. It's actual. (It's composed of the substance of illusion.) It's actual in every real sense of that word. However, it isn't what one most deeply IS. - I agree with precarious, but the 7=4 is a tight-rope walker already well schooled in the balancing act, so this kind of "precarious" is "all in a day's work."
One might as well say that the connection to the HGA is precarious. It isn't really, because, once solidly established, the link is permanent. But living in mindful awareness of it, living in conscious passionate responsiveness to the Angel's word, is certainly not an hour-by-hour reality. This doesn't mean, though, that it's part of the 7=4 work as such. It's the 5=6 work. Ditto with karma and 6=5.
"It seems then that only after the attainment to 8=3 can one really rest upon a firm basis"
Unless you are intentionally using "rest" in its literal meaning as the actual Hebrew name of Saturn, I'd have to disagree. This "firm basis" comes many times, and perhaps most recently at the maturity of 5=6.
"It seems to be a critical transformation, night and day compared to the lower spheres. How would you rate its immensity?"
Fucking big.
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Thanks for the response.
@Jim Eshelman said
"The job of the Babe of the Abyss is primarily to abide in the Abyss."
That doesn't sound like hard work, I did it for 9 months before I was even born! By "Grace" my implication was that it is beyond the Adept's sphere to initiate its onset, that it is the grace of Binah. However I do see per the "momentum" connotation and way of thinking about it which I like too, that it was self-willed behavior in action and devotion that brought one to that point. Still, I am not sure everyone who builds up momentum in general will have the same fortunate result--the momentum seems of a special kind. But then again, by the attainment to 7=4, one should have probably worked out how to attain that special kind of desirable momentum. Even so, the whole event, being by nature the unexpected (and a critical, pronounced change), it seems will always be of the nature of a great surprise.
You quote Crowley: Confessions, "I cannot even say that I crossed the Abyss deliberately. I was hurled into it by the momentum of the forces which I had called up."
I had thought Crowley was one who rather did initiate the abyss event upon himself by taking on the skrying of Enochian's 30 aethyrs, but I guess my view is flawed here. Do you have any summary of Crowley's 8=3 attainment? Thanks for stating your 6=5 views, it seems you are saying karmic attachments are alleviated in Lamed on to Geburah, freeing one up to be led by the unitary angel.
@Jim Eshelman said
"The Task of the 6=5 includes the Path of Kaph."
Not sure why it would pre-dominantly, as Kaph connects Chesed to Netzach. You call charity, selflessness, renunciation, etc., "mainenance activities" in Chesed, what do you then see as the major work?
@Jim Eshelman said
"My preferred imagery is that one finds onself standing atop the flat, square surface of a (hopefully) balanced-built pyramid, complete but for its upper part; standing here at night, under naked heavens of the body of Nuit, in mindful mystery and awaiting the landing of the completing part."
Yes the pyramid description is very true. I have just found the entire mystery is contained in Crowley's unique version of Key XIX as Sun, whether really intended or not. The fertile earth is the pyramid of aspiration, but the wall is the abyss experience itself separating microcosom from macrocosm, as the top of the pyramid from its base. The symbolism is a bit too complex to discuss here, but if you draw a pyramidical triangle of 36 units base length and height, it gives the dimensions of the abyss as separated from the squared base. That is the Nv Pyramid I'v been working on, with the magickal square of the sun behind it. Crowley's Key XIX is a metathesis of the initiatory progress as steps, my conclusion is the card is meant to be. [Other formations of the card have the two children stepping out of the Nigredo into the Albedo, where behind the wall is the third circle of the Rubedo.].
^ = 12 units base and height
-- = abyss is 6 units height
N = square in the triangle of 18 units base and height.Basically, the alchemical "squared circle" glyph is the initiatory pyramid (see Michael Maier's Emblema XXI from his Atalanta Fugiens). unurthed.com/category/alchemy
The two children are the male and female in in the square of the delta triangle. Above their microcosmic duality is the wall which is the abyss that separates them from the apex of the triangle, which is the macrocosmic unity of the sun. Further the 36 unit triangle can be divided into 7 sections 6 units apart as the seven cakras. The 6 unit abyss is found to be right between the 4th and 5th cakras, which can be correlated to Chesed and Binah.
Yes I made the Adept up to 7=4 to be too shaky lol, I retract that. I was more referring to the onset of the abyss experience, where one may feel "peaked" or shaky in a religious kind of perichoresis, kind of like stacked geometries. You say you've been able to read a few case studies: of what nature is its onset?, how long is the white heat prolonged?, when do the reverberations subside and even out? Is the principle nature a snuffing out of the separate or limited viewpoint of self, an absorption into the infinite, etc?
I was implying that there is a greater unity with the Dao by "firm basis," that it is much harder to get into a rut, lose one's truth, to waver off the path, etc., where a new, improved unity with the source of truth has been established.
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@Wizardiaoan said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The job of the Babe of the Abyss is primarily to abide in the Abyss."That doesn't sound like hard work, I did it for 9 months before I was even born!"
Well, no, I don't think you did. It requires a well-developed Ruach to abide in the Abyss, and you didn't even have the neurology for that during the nine months you mentioned.
"Still, I am not sure everyone who builds up momentum in general will have the same fortunate result--the momentum seems of a special kind."
I am. For someone who has worked the grades all the way through to 7=4 and continuing, it's inevitable but for death intervening.
"Even so, the whole event, being by nature the unexpected (and a critical, pronounced change), it seems will always be of the nature of a great surprise."
I don't agree with that description at all; that is, I don't recognize it as describing anything that routinely occurs at that stage of development. If it's unexpected, someone hasn't been paying attention!
You're describing a Uranian type experience for perhaps the most Neptunian stage in all psychospiritual development."You quote Crowley: Confessions, "I cannot even say that I crossed the Abyss deliberately. I was hurled into it by the momentum of the forces which I had called up."
I had thought Crowley was one who rather did initiate the abyss event upon himself by taking on the skrying of Enochian's 30 aethyrs, but I guess my view is flawed here. Do you have any summary of Crowley's 8=3 attainment?"
He didn't set out saying, "OK, I'm off to cross the abyss today." Instead, he said, "I'm off to cross this part of the Sahara today." And even that whole trip was a consequence of his being "hurled... by the momentum of the forces," etc.
Summary of his 8=3 attainment? Do you mean the process or the consequences. The former can be found in The Vision & the Voice, and the latter well documented in The Confessions. I'll put some interesting quotes in the next post.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The Task of the 6=5 includes the Path of Kaph."Not sure why it would pre-dominantly, as Kaph connects Chesed to Netzach."
The Task of the 6=5 is substantially the working of the Paths which open unto Chesed. If you read "One Star in Sight" for 6=5, you'll find that the descriptions are of the tasks of Kaph, Yod, and Teth.
"You call charity, selflessness, renunciation, etc., "mainenance activities" in Chesed, what do you then see as the major work?"
I meant "maintenance activities" on the Karma issue. They're consistent with O.S.I.S.'s statement, "He will have attained all but the supreme summits of meditation, and should be already prepared to perceive that the only possible course for him is to devote himself utterly to helping his fellow creatures."
The main proactive task of 7=4 involves the higher Bhakti-Yoga (Para-Bhakti) and working the Paths of Zayin and Cheth before surrendering to the Abyss. Also bringing his Ruach structure and contents to its apical climax by his composition and publication of his thesis.
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Some quotes from Crowley from Confessions, concerning Babe of the Abyss:
@Ch. 58 said
"I cannot even say that I crossed the Abyss deliberately. I was hurled into it by the momentum of the forces which I had called up. For three years, save for spasmodic and half-hearted incidents, and the great moment in Cairo which took place in direct opposition to the united efforts of my skepticism, my cynicism, my disgust with everything, my idleness and my prejudices, I had been fighting against my destiny. I had been building up a great dam. My occasional return to Magick had been more in the nature of occasional sprees than anything else, as a man consumed by an over-mastering passion for a woman and determined to trample her under foot, might seek relief in occasional flirtations. . .
I found myself in a truly surprising state. . . I had all the innocence and helplessness of a child at the period when it gropes instinctively for someone to love it, someone whom it knows and trusts, who is infinitely strong, infinitely wise and infinitely kind. . .
The effect of my ordeal had been to remove all forces soever which had impinged on my normal direction. My star had been diverted from its proper orbit by, had been held back by, the attraction of other heavenly bodies. Their influence had been removed. For the first time in my life I was really free. I had no personality left."
Describing the time immediately following the 14th Æthyr:
@Ch. 66 said
"I remember nothing of my return to Bou Saâda. There was an animal in the wilderness, but it was not I. All things had become alike; all impressions were indistinguishable. I only remember finding myself on my bed, as if coming out of some catastrophe which had blotted out in utter blackness every trace of memory. As I came to myself, I found myself changed. I knew who I was and all the events of my life; but I no longer made myself the center of their sphere, or their sphere the standard by which I measured the universe. It was a repetition of my experience of 1905, but far more actual. I did not merely admit that I did not exist, and that all my ideas were illusions, inane and insane. I felt these facts as facts. It was the difference between book knowledge and experience. It seemed incredible that I should ever have fancied that I or anything else had any bearing on each other. All things were alike as shadows sweeping across the still surface of a lake – their images had no meaning for the water, no power to stir its silence.” "
And:
@Ch 67 said
"Part of the effect of crossing the Abyss is that it takes a long time to connect the Master with what is left below the Abyss. Deprived of their ego, the mind and body of the man are somewhat at sea until, as one may say, the ‘wireless control’ has been established. In the year 1910 Aleister Crowley was as a sheep not having a shepherd; the motives and controlling element had been removed and he was more or less cut off from the past. One thing seemed as good as another. He acted irresponsibly. He went on with his work more by force of habit than anything else, and the events of his life were, so to say, more chemical reactions between his character and his circumstances."
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Wizardiaoan said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The job of the Babe of the Abyss is primarily to abide in the Abyss."That doesn't sound like hard work, I did it for 9 months before I was even born!"
Well, no, I don't think you did. It requires a well-developed Ruach to abide in the Abyss, and you didn't even have the neurology for that during the nine months you mentioned."
Lol, it was a joke; I figured you would know I was joking. Anyway, your deadpan reply is funny.
@Jim Eshelman said
"If it's unexpected, someone hasn't been paying attention!
You're describing a Uranian type experience for perhaps the most Neptunian stage in all psychospiritual development."Heh, well in my defense it seems Crowley wasn't expecting it too much either, from what you quote above: "I cannot even say that I crossed the Abyss deliberately...I found myself in a truly surprising state..." I'm sorry, I don't get the Uranian/Neptune thing.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Summary of his 8=3 attainment? Do you mean the process or the consequences?"
I was just wondering the time frame when you thought he moved to babe of the abyss to Magister Templi, when his experience subsided, etc. It seems you think it was all during his 30 aethyrs working.
@Jim Eshelman said
"The main proactive task of 7=4 involves the higher Bhakti-Yoga (Para-Bhakti) and working the Paths of Zayin and Cheth before surrendering to the Abyss. Also bringing his Ruach structure and contents to its apical climax by his composition and publication of his thesis."
"Klīm, Krishnāya, Govindāya, Gopī-jana, Vallabhāya, Swāhā!" Why not work the path of Vau or Heh/Tzaddi also, and could you summarize you imply by working the paths of Zayin and Cheth out of curiosity?
Thanks for the quotes, Crowley comments well upon the 8=3 and above.
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@Wizardiaoan said
"I was just wondering the time frame when you thought he moved to babe of the abyss to Magister Templi, when his experience subsided, etc. It seems you think it was all during his 30 aethyrs working."
Babe of the Abyss was summer solstice 1909. Master of the Temple was December of the same year as documented in V&V.
That is, yes, he walked into the desert a six month old Babe of the Abyss, and walked out an 8=3.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The main proactive task of 7=4 involves the higher Bhakti-Yoga (Para-Bhakti) and working the Paths of Zayin and Cheth before surrendering to the Abyss. Also bringing his Ruach structure and contents to its apical climax by his composition and publication of his thesis."Why not work the path of Vau or Heh/Tzaddi also, and could you summarize you imply by working the paths of Zayin and Cheth out of curiosity?"
Vav and Heh aren't open until after reaching 8=3, since they are Paths of "approach" to Chokmah. Just as a the task of the 3=8 (for example) substantially involves the three Paths opening to Netzach, the task of the 7=4 substantially involves the Paths opening to Binah.
I keep referring you to "One Star in Sight" and it is apparent that you haven't yet read it; otherwise, you'd know the answer regarding to work of Zayin and Cheth. Here is the concise presentation there: "To attain the Grade of Magister Templi, he must perform two tasks; the emancipation from thought by putting each idea against its opposite, and refusing to prefer either [that's Zayin]; and the consecration of himself as a pure vehicle for the influence of the order to which he aspires [that's Cheth]."
I elaborated on this in M&MAA. For Zayin, I noted that, in addition to the normal meditative methods of yoga, the practical instruction for the task is Liber Os Abysmi vel Da'ath: The Book of the Mouth of the Abyss or The Book of Da’ath (Knowledge). It provides a technique for employing the intellect, isolated from the intuitive faculty, to destroy its own compelling hold on the soul. For the Path of Cheth, I wrote in part:
"The task for this Path... is entirely clear. However, each person must discover his or her own method for its accomplishment. Cheth is the final Path traversed before admission of the Adept into the Third Order and the Grade of Magister Templi, even as Samekh was the last traversed within the Outer College. The step yet before the Adeptus Exemptus compares to adepthood (to the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel) as that Knowledge and Conversation compares to the Neophyte’s initial aspiration within the First Order.
A certain assistance is given to the Adept in these matters.
First, as Liber Viarum Viæ confirms, for this “Ritual of the Holy Grail” we are given the horrible-beautiful Class A document Liber Cheth vel Vallum Abiegni. ... Another document from the Adeptus Exemptus Syllabus also may be of assistance in the basic task of this Path, the self-consecration of the Adept as a pure vehicle for the influence of the Third Order to which she aspires. The document is Liber Thisharb Viæ Memoriæ (The Book of the Journey of the Memory)."