Magick: Subjective, or Objective.
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@Chris Hanlon said
"Chris says nothing is objective, which is a subjective statement, so I am consistent. Not necessarily correct, but consistent.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333"Reminds me of the old self-refutation: "All general statements are false."
IAO131
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@Aum418 said
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@gurugeorge said
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@RifRaf said
"Are we that dense we need to nit-pick things like this?If you come across some other person (and this person is obviously not you)who is a Christian, they are their own person, not of you, detached from you, Objective. A 3 year old can recognize the difference."
Well there you go. According to AC, magical stuff is as objective as that. There's a funny quote, I think in Magick Without Tears, where he says:
I have seen people turn fish-belly pale in the face, and come near fainting outright, when it has dawned upon them suddenly that magick is a real thing!
Me, I'm not so sure (I'm more sure of the mystical side of things), but there's the canonical late AC for you.
There would seem to be a contradiction between that and the bit at the beginning of Liber O; but then again, maybe there's no contradiction, and with time and experience he simply plumped for the objective side. It does seem to be heavily stressed in his later writing, and the balanced agnosticism of Liber O seems to be forgotten."
Because somethign is 'real' doesnt mean its objective. A pain is subjective but its real. Its quite simple and Im amazed that you ahve such a hard time understanding the difference between subjective and objective.
IAO131"
I'm not sure I agree with that hard and fast a distinction between "real" and "objective". The real part of pain is the objective part (C-fibre stimulation or whatever it is, plus the resultant brainstorm), the "ouchiness" of pain, the subjective aspect, isn't real, it only *seems *to be real (same as there *seems *to be a self).
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As with any Duality, there is a "Transcendental Reality" that is simultaneously "Both" and "Neither", that is 2=0 or classically, +1-1=0, or better still as i prefer, -X+X = 0
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Everything a man perceives is to a certain extent subjective, either as an individual or as a phenomenon within the confines of human experience; from a quantum perspective phenomenon requires an observer to exist within the confines of "Time-Space".
Your question therefore relates to the nature of "Time-Space" itself.
I maintain there is that which transcends "Time-Space".I hope I have clarified my position with this answer.
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@Scapegoa said
"Everything a man perceives is to a certain extent subjective, either as an individual or as a phenomenon within the confines of human experience; from a quantum perspective phenomenon requires an observer to exist within the confines of "Time-Space".
Your question therefore relates to the nature of "Time-Space" itself.
I maintain there is that which transcends "Time-Space".I hope I have clarified my position with this answer."
Quantum perspective requires an observer to determine the position or momentum of a particle; it exists before this observation (or more correctly, this measurement) but in, according t teh Copenhagen Interpretation, in a superposition state. It exists though before it is perceived. That doesnt mean tehre isnt ;that which transcends Time-Space"
IAO131
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IAO131
would you say that this indeterminate position or momentum exists within linear time, moving from past to future?
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@Scapegoa said
"IAO131
would you say that this indeterminate position or momentum exists within linear time, moving from past to future?"
93,
Most certainly.
Look at the two-slit experiment which confuses the layman endlessly. An alpha particle or photon or electron is shot from somewhere through the 'slits' and ends up being measured by photosensitive paper (or geiger counter etc.) This all occurs in normal time, i.e. it starts somewhere and ends somewhere. What it "is" in between there is a subject of intense debate and how it "ends up" as particle & wave is a subject of debate (Copenhagen Interpretation: wave function collapse)
IAO131
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"The principle of superposition claims that while we do not know what the state of any object is, it is actually in all possible states simultaneously, as long as we don't look to check. It is the measurement itself that causes the object to be limited to a single possibility.
As Feynman concluded, each photon not only goes through both slits, but simultaneously takes every possible trajectory en route to the target, not just in theory, but in fact.
In order to see how this might possibly occur, experiments have focused on tracking the paths of individual photons. What happens in this case is that the measurement in some way disrupts the photons' trajectories (in accordance with the uncertainty principle), and somehow, the results of the experiment become what would be predicted by classical physics: two bright lines on the photographic plate, aligned with the slits in the barrier. Cease the attempt to measure, however, and the pattern will again become multiple lines in varying degrees of lightness and darkness. Each photon moves simultaneously in a superposition of possible trajectories, and, furthermore, measurement of the trajectory causes the superposition of states to collapse to a single position."
I am inclined to concur with Feynman's conclusion, which makes it impossible for me to confine particles to linear Time-Space.
True enough there is no consensus as to the exact nature of either "Time", "Light" nor "Mind"; but in the mind of many, including Einstein, there is a direct relationship between the two(or three). To my mind "Linear Time" is the creation of "Linear Mind", hence primarily subjective."The alternative physics is a physics of light. Light is composed of photons, which have no antiparticle. This means that there is no dualism in the world of light. The conventions of relativity say that time slows down as one approaches the speed of light, but if one tries to imagine the point of view of a thing made of light, one must realize that what is never mentioned is that if one moves at the speed of light there is no time whatsoever. There is an experience of time zero. So if one imagines for a moment oneself to be made of light, or in possession of a vehicle that can move at the speed of light, one can traverse from any point in the universe to any other with a subjective experience of time zero. This means that one crosses to Alpha Centauri in time zero, but the amount of time that has passed in the relativistic universe is four and a half years. But if one moves very great distances, if one crosses two hundred and fifty thousand light-years to Andromeda, one would still have a subjective experience of time zero." Terence Mckenna. New maps of hyperspace.
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@Scapegoa said
""The principle of superposition claims that while we do not know what the state of any object is, it is actually in all possible states simultaneously, as long as we don't look to check. It is the measurement itself that causes the object to be limited to a single possibility.
As Feynman concluded, each photon not only goes through both slits, but simultaneously takes every possible trajectory en route to the target, not just in theory, but in fact."
This Feynman's specific interpretation of quantum mechanical events, traditionally called "path integral formulation."
"In order to see how this might possibly occur, experiments have focused on tracking the paths of individual photons. What happens in this case is that the measurement in some way disrupts the photons' trajectories (in accordance with the uncertainty principle), and somehow, the results of the experiment become what would be predicted by classical physics: two bright lines on the photographic plate, aligned with the slits in the barrier. Cease the attempt to measure, however, and the pattern will again become multiple lines in varying degrees of lightness and darkness."
They are measured but that at the same point - if we measure which slit the photon is coming through it will appear as a particle formation. If we do not do this and let them hit a photosensitive sheet, it will make an interference pattern which is indicative of waves.
"Each photon moves simultaneously in a superposition of possible trajectories, and, furthermore, measurement of the trajectory causes the superposition of states to collapse to a single position.""
That is a traditional interpretation, yes.
"I am inclined to concur with Feynman's conclusion, which makes it impossible for me to confine particles to linear Time-Space.
True enough there is no consensus as to the exact nature of either "Time", "Light" nor "Mind"; but in the mind of many, including Einstein, there is a direct relationship between the two(or three). To my mind "Linear Time" is the creation of "Linear Mind", hence primarily subjective."Our perception of time is most certainly a product of our nervous systems (and therefore our Linear Mind), but it is kind of absurd if you think about it. If time is an illusion, what about the formation of stars and planets and evolutionary history? All those occur in a sequential order.
""The alternative physics is a physics of light. Light is composed of photons, which have no antiparticle. This means that there is no dualism in the world of light."
"The short answer to "are there anti-photons" is "yes", but the disappointment here is that anti-photons and photons are the same particles. Some particles are their own antiparticles, notably the force carriers like photons, the Z boson, and gluons, which mediate the electromagnetic force, the weak nuclear force, and the strong force, respectively."
Terence McKenna was not a physicist.
"The conventions of relativity say that time slows down as one approaches the speed of light, but if one tries to imagine the point of view of a thing made of light, one must realize that what is never mentioned is that if one moves at the speed of light there is no time whatsoever."
Actually Einstein realized that if you ride on a beam of light and see a beam of light it would be traveling at the sped of light, not equal to oneself. Confusing, I know.
"There is an experience of time zero. So if one imagines for a moment oneself to be made of light, or in possession of a vehicle that can move at the speed of light, one can traverse from any point in the universe to any other with a subjective experience of time zero. This means that one crosses to Alpha Centauri in time zero, but the amount of time that has passed in the relativistic universe is four and a half years."
This seems like a total confusion. Light travels at a certain speed and distances are measured in this (i.e. light-speed). "The relativistic universe" is the one we live in and are aware of, not a 'time zero' one. Light is not infinitely fast.
"But if one moves very great distances, if one crosses two hundred and fifty thousand light-years to Andromeda, one would still have a subjective experience of time zero." Terence Mckenna. New maps of hyperspace."
That is debatable. People in a fast-moving space shuttle will have their clocks move 'slower' than people in a non-moving station but will the people's subjective perceptions of time be equally skewed? This is not answered by physics.
IAO131
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I must say this is getting interesting;
We are yet to have a "Unified Field Theory", or conversely "Theory of Everything" within the paradigm of modern physics and necessarily so; "Physics" is merely a language, based on a "history"of precedent, and limited by it's medium of propagation, hence a Linear time-line unto itself, and as such inherently incapable in and of itself at expressing transcendental truth; rationalization itself takes place within "Time", while "Gnosis" is instantaneous; "Also reason is a lie; for there is a factor infinite & unknown; & all their words are skew-wise" CCXX II:32
Telepathy would approach gnosis in terms of being virtually instantaneous, in the absence thereof however, being limited to this mediocre English alphabet, one is forced to manipulate the written word to serve one's ends as best one can.As in the case of Terence Mckenna, though not a physicist, he experimented with "Mind Altering Drugs" loosely according to the tradition of the Shamans, and henceforth tried to articulate his direct experiences and intuitions generated thereby, in a language that may be called alternative physics, or pseudo -physics if you will. His emphasis therefore not being on technical correctness, but more on the underlying fundamental idea. IMHO he was exceptionally articulate.
To my mind "Light" is the "Essence of Consciousness" as perceived in Time-Space(a picture is worth a thousand words), the language of the Stars! Or otherwise "Pure Information", and information is all that exists. "Time" is therefore in one aspect, the drama of the "Linear-Mind" being unable to absorb infinite information instantaneously.
Let us return to the principle of superposition; the Linear-Mind being unable to apprehend all possible states simultaneously, apprehends each state individually and/or consecutively, it is the interface between "Attention to Specifics(Linear-Mind)" and "Infinite Possibilities"(Nuit if you will) that produces the finite. From this it follows that there may be infinite parallel universes superimposed at the same location, and breaking through into one of these alternate universes may be one way to describe some of the phenomena or noumena attributed to magick, mysticism and/ or shamanism. Furthermore, IMO there is that which transcends all, or Time -Zero if you like, of which we partake on some sub/super-conscious level.
I would agree with Mckenna that to move or vibrate at the speed of light is probably to transcend Time as we know it! I believe perception would be in a different paradigm.
As far as evolution is concerned that is just one possible way of perceiving things, which is rational to the linear-mind. The concept of "Time travel" is central to this debate. -
"but will the people's subjective perceptions of time be equally skewed? This is not answered by physics. "
Subjective perceptions can't be answered by anything, right?
Great comments,Aum.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
IMO yes the subjective time is definitely altered!
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We can only come to a consensus agreement as far as our minds can collectively fix on definitions, but this is really only important in a textual or literary context which certainly changes once you change languages.
Crowley sternly warned against considering the HGA as a figment of the mind or some anthropomorphic aspect of the "higher self". He certainly, at least toward the end of his life, made it very clear that he believed the HGA is an independent being in its own reality, as are planets, stars and other lofty orders of being.
The only real answers to your questions must be experiential and must be subjectively lived through to fully experience the soak-effect in a feedback returning reality. So you, like Parsifal, must ride around on your poor donkey overcoming the monsters of your own awareness in the very precarious environment you find yourself set in.
On the case of objective angels; We can see that the minds ability to create neuro-toxin is very real. We know that concentrating on negativity tends to create a negative effect in the organism by bathing the neurology in juices the brain secretes as a result of these thoughts - and vice versa. The great thing is, that we can control, to varying degrees, the creation and manipulation of neurological states, which certainly have a very real corresponding effects in the neurology and organism (brain, body, breath, etc).
Weather you personally believe something is real or not, much like in medieval "Glamour" you can think yourself into physiological changes by the power of mind alone. In this way, the auto-hypnosis of invoking an Angel (or demon) can have very measurable results in objective reality which can be verified by other people. This does not prove the existence of exterior orders of Being, perhaps not, but it does prove that the objective existence of these beings is secondary to our "divine" power to cause changes at the organic level using these forms as channels or fulcrums to achieve measurable changes. In that case, the fantasy, subjective Angel is perhaps just as helpful as the objective. In the end, if it creates positive organic changes, it hardly even matters as the method overcomes the message.
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Tell me if I understand this correctly:
The OP is asking for an opinion. But the expectation is that the opinion must be yes, no or neither, otherwise it's not acceptable.
We are talking about Magick here and it is in fact a "deep" subject. So that's very similar to trying to force a multidimensional experience into a linear answer.
Is my interpretation (hence my opinion of the question) correct?
**Edit: According to 777's definition of a Magus who has solved opposites etc. (wherein the answer of "Both" is also acceptable) this appraoch would be defeating in that it rules out any answer from that level of consciousness. May as well say "Here's the question, Magus' need not apply." It's like denying one-self the ability to listen to a right brain (or beyond) opinion.
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@Frater MDC said
"May as well say "Here's the question, Magus' need not apply." It's like denying one-self the ability to listen to a right brain (or beyond) opinion."
Or more like "Here's ANY question, Magus' need not apply." Which is probably why they are required to "preach their gospel," so to speak, precisely when they no longer have any "straight" words to do so.
@Liber B vel Magi said
"14. "For the curse of His grade is that he must speak Truth, that the Falsehood thereof may enslave the souls of men"
and- "And woe also be unto Him that refuseth the curse of the grade of a Magus, and the burden of the Attainment thereof." "
@Liber LIX said
""Father, I go back to Memphis. I am the Magus of the Well."
Now he knew the Magus, and answered me:
"Why liest thou?"
And I said "I am come into the world where all speech is false, and all speech is true."
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Yeah, makes sense.
My opinion is that magick can be objective when the inner and the outer become one.
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@Aum418 said
"Our perception of time is most certainly a product of our nervous systems (and therefore our Linear Mind), but it is kind of absurd if you think about it. If time is an illusion, what about the formation of stars and planets and evolutionary history? All those occur in a sequential order."
I do not necessarily think that Linear-Mind is a product of our nervous system, I think Linear-Mind is a product of our cultural and formal conditioning & education.
The idea of the formation of planets in a sequential order may not be completely accurate at or around the Planck Scale, where Space-Time is a discrete relational concept, which fact eludes most C21st scientists. and of course there is the problem of "Initial Cause"; so causality still breaks down at "Singularity", this may be a practical example of the question of the wave-particle duality on a Macrocosmic Scale, our "measurement of time" is merely "A Model of Time" and not "Time" itself, this model may be considered a form of statistical probability of the particle in terms of the wave function, and "Linear-Time" may simply be limiting perception and defining reality in terms of the particle, there is no escape from the fact that at some point the concept of "Causality" breaks down, be it "Singularity" or just plain "Chaos"""The short answer to "are there anti-photons" is "yes", but the disappointment here is that anti-photons and photons are the same particles. Some particles are their own antiparticles, notably the force carriers like photons, the Z boson, and gluons, which mediate the electromagnetic force, the weak nuclear force, and the strong force, respectively.""
if anti-photons and photons are the same particle is this not in some sense non-dualistic? I think the fact that the "force carriers" are particularly there own antiparticles is indicative of the nature of "force" itself. I have a strong intuition that Electromagnetic force is directly related to "Consciousness"
"Actually Einstein realized that if you ride on a beam of light and see a beam of light it would be traveling at the sped of light, not equal to oneself. Confusing, I know."
dare might I say it!?.. Einstein might be wrong on this one! Einstein was always threatened by quantum theory and anything that questioned his sacred theories, this may be what ultimately led to his failure in producing a "unified field theory"
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"There is an experience of time zero. So if one imagines for a moment oneself to be made of light, or in possession of a vehicle that can move at the speed of light, one can traverse from any point in the universe to any other with a subjective experience of time zero. This means that one crosses to Alpha Centauri in time zero, but the amount of time that has passed in the relativistic universe is four and a half years."This seems like a total confusion. Light travels at a certain speed and distances are measured in this (i.e. light-speed). "The relativistic universe" is the one we live in and are aware of, not a 'time zero' one. Light is not infinitely fast."
we have already established that both "speed" and "measurement" are relative to the observer, so both break down where relativity breaks down or at non-duality; such that since it is arguable that photons are non-dual, it is arguable that relativity breaks down at this stage also, conversely on an extremely crude level nothing can be observed "Without Light", we even experience a kind of "Light" in "Dreams" which cannot be accounted for except in terms of virtual photons/ electromagnetic force?!
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"But if one moves very great distances, if one crosses two hundred and fifty thousand light-years to Andromeda, one would still have a subjective experience of time zero." Terence Mckenna. New maps of hyperspace."That is debatable. People in a fast-moving space shuttle will have their clocks move 'slower' than people in a non-moving station but will the people's subjective perceptions of time be equally skewed? This is not answered by physics.
IAO131"
you are right in that this question is not answered by classical physics, I suppose where one actually to travel at light-speed one would either transcend "motion" entirely and experience omnipresence/omniscience? or unlimited LVX? or otherwise be unable to perceive it.
p.s. I apologize for bringing up an old post if apologies are considered in order, my contemplation has recently returned to this subject.
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Just cottoned onto this thread now.
From a purely logical / philosophical position the answer is fairly straightforward. Hume was refuted by Kant for making certain metaphysical assumptions. Kant explains that there is no reason for any metaphysical assumption - we know the World through our phenomenal experience (subjectively). We cannot prove noumenal existence (the world as a "thing-in-itself").
The "objective" should not be confused with the noumenal (thing-in-itself), since objective is just collective subjective consensus. Now that's not to say the noumenal does not exist but it does mean that we cannot know a "thing-in-itself", at least via our typical phenomenal perception that results in "an idea" in the mind.
Of course there might be non-intellectual, non-phenomenal means of knowing a "thing-in-itself" (eg: Samadhi)...but then you can hardly discuss this within the limitations of intellectual thought brought about by sense-perception.
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@modernPrimitive said
"Of course there might be non-intellectual, non-phenomenal means of knowing a "thing-in-itself" (eg: Samadhi)...but then you can hardly discuss this within the limitations of intellectual thought brought about by sense-perception."
On the contrary I believe you can discuss these things by analogy for example the "as above so below" analogy; Is not the Qabalah but such a map for non-discursive thought?
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@Frater IamAi 1151 said
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@modernPrimitive said
"Of course there might be non-intellectual, non-phenomenal means of knowing a "thing-in-itself" (eg: Samadhi)...but then you can hardly discuss this within the limitations of intellectual thought brought about by sense-perception."On the contrary I believe you can discuss these things by analogy for example the "as above so below" analogy; Is not the Qabalah but such a map for non-discursive thought?"
Sure. I hear you. But as far as "proof via rational thought" goes we have to remain agnostic to the noumenal. It's more parsimonious to NOT entertain any metaphysical assumption - whether it be in the form of some sort of material existence (as entertained by Naturalism) or a form of mental monism (as entertained by forms of mysticism).
That's not to say we mustn't think about these things or follow the methods of empiricism and / or mysticism etc, just that we don't wholeheartedly buy into any unfalsifiable metaphysical assumption.