IOT
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Urmmm, it isn't political correctness, trust me, I am anything but politically correct and call it like I see it. Political Correctness is saying "african american" as opposed to "black" or "intercourse" as opposed to "sex" etc. It is trying to maintain a neutral or inoffensive tone. Being respectful to me is the equivalent of trying to get along for the sake of avoiding unnecessary drama. You piss me off you know. I don't like you, you know. I can be that way and still maintain a civility of character that lets people know I am not an asshole or prick.
As to liberal... I always say there is a time & place for BOTH sides of the political spectrum. I support the idea of socialized medicine but disagree with bail outs, which were initiated by the Bush administration. I believe in a flat tax rate no matter your income & the elimination of the income tax or its conversion to a health care tax. I believe in a welfare system to an extent because someday I may find myself in a position to require it and therefore I pay into it and consider it a sort of savings for an emergency like if I get crippled in an accident. I also at the same time want a complete reform of the system so that it isn't a way to support generations upon generations so that people who haven't paid into it can not benefit from it unless they are crippled or dealing with a debilitating situation such as cancer etc. I want to see the elimination of the federal reserve. I want to see the end of the Patriot Act. I want "under god" to be permanently stricken from the Pledge of Allegiance. I want the myth of the USA being a Christian nation to be squelched. Essentially I figure if I pay taxes I should be getting tangible benefits outside of government officials fat wallets & military support, but I want limited government involvement in my personal life. So no, it isn't liberal, its moderate.
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@Froclown said
"Your do not seem to see what I mean. It is the Christian notion of Equality before God that was what Nietzsche called slave mentality. It was a trick so that the repressed Jews could feel equal to the Romans and even to claim the Emperor was equal to the common peasant, as before God all are equal. "
@Froclown said
"I never said to not be respectful, what I said is that what is respectful is to treat others the way a warrior meets another warrior, **with the belief that the other is at least as powerful, competent and skilled as one self, **not fragile as if need of you to treat them delicately and be sensitive to their troubles. You have your own trouble and they are your own and no one else's business if you are strong and WILLFUL, your private problems are obstacles you meet and conquer on your own, and you REFUSE all charity or pity. If you see others as equally strong, then you do not care to coddle their weakness, you do not offer charity nor pity, instead you say you deal with your own shit and I'll deal with mine. "
So, are we to believe we are the Emperor's equals or not?
Is Equality an ideal to base action on or not?
Under your philosophy, why should you *treat me *as an equal if I am not?
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The Idea is to see others as equally capable and able to meet hard tests of valour.
Not to say everone is of equal worth innately and without test.
It is to constantly challenge your own and others limits, not to say everyone is the same and equal and so we must be soft on everyone.
Yes we treat others as equally capable, no we do not treat others as equal in the sense of lowest common denomenator.
"Make ye no differnce..."
"Whosever availeth is this shall be chief of all"The king is not to be patronized and trated as infallible, rather instead the higher ones rank the harder the tests, the more one has to Prove.
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@Froclown said
"The Idea is to see others as equally capable and able to meet hard tests of valour.
Not to say everone is of equal worth innately and without test.
"If others are to be automatically seen and treated as "equally capable and able to meet hard tests of valour" by the very nature of their existance as humans, then why are they not of "equal worth innately"?
You "treat them as equals" based on some idea. What is that idea? How is a complete stranger to be immediately understood as your equal if that equality is not innate?
innate - adj. Possessed at birth; inborn. Possessed as an essential characteristic; inherent.
Define worth. Under your system, who gets to define worth? Worth what? To what? To whom? By whose standards?
This too is wisdom:
""The supreme good is like water,
which nourishes all things without trying to.
It is content with the low places that people disdain.
Thus it is like the Tao.In dwelling, live close to the ground.
In thinking, keep to the simple.
In conflict, be fair and generous.
In governing, don't try to control.
In work, do what you enjoy.
In family life, be completely present.When you are content to be simply yourself
and don't compare or compete,
everybody will respect you."-- Tao Te Ching, Chp 8"
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Those who fail the tests are not treated as equal. If by Equal you mean that "I am Human and You are Human, thus we are equal and all deserve kinds of rights" For example a dead beat is a human and thus deserves welfare checks because he has a right to eat, and thus I have to sacrifice to help all others humans on earth.
That is not correct, Everyone certainly has equal opportunity to prove themselves, but if you can't or won't meet the challenges, no one has a duty to support you or console your failures. If some one is stronger, wiser, faster, more skilled then they are superior and should be recognized as superior, Not by birth but by dint of personal efforts.
If one is say born without working legs or with mental defects, well than is a personal problem, if one triumphs and succeeds against the odds, that is great. But we must never lower the standards, so that say a retarded person need only complete 10% of the Bar exam to be considered equal to a Lawyer who passed the full exam with honors. As an exaggeration of affirmative action.
Also. when I say liberalism I am not talking about US political system at all. In fact even the most staunch US republican is very Liberal next to Integral Traditionalism. Liberal in the sense of individualism rather than personhood. An individual is the proposed notion that a man is as island, a discrete self defined unite, dissociate from all others, from family, community, society, Race and Nation. A Person however is Part of the continuum of Nuit. Hadit is never divided fully away from Nuit. That is Who you are is meshed with the Community, the Race and Nation. The same as a Cell in your body is not Self-derived. The Cell is unique, but its unique Role is only assured due to its full dedication to the its type of cell (race) its tissue (Community) and its organ (nation) and then the body as a whole is not concerned with individual cell, but with the interaction of organs. (Nations in the world).
A body with one organ, like say one big liver or heart, would not function, its the interactions and balanced conflicts between different organs than make the body work, this is true also of the world. We need lots of different types of nations, each made of unique communities and unique race-culture. Which is to say a Caste system where each type of person or CELL has its place in balanced conflicts between individuals.
Do what thou WILT = Be the type of cell than you are, be unique
Love under WILL = the unity that arises out of conflict between WillsLiberalism on one hand claims to talk about individualism and diversity, but in practice seeks to make all individuals the same down to the lowest common traits (just being biologically human). Diversity means to accept others to rewove all conflicts and differences between races, cultures, community, nations etc. Thus Liberalism aims at homogenizing everyone, not promoting the unique WILL or function of the person in proper relation to the higher order.
While Liberalism in rhetoric sounds like Thelema, it is actually antagonistic to Thelema's basic principles. Just because the book is titles "LIBER AL" does not mean it supports Liberal ideals.
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**"Those who fail the tests are not treated as equal. If by Equal you mean that "I am Human and You are Human, thus we are equal and all deserve kinds of rights" For example a dead beat is a human and thus deserves welfare checks because he has a right to eat, and thus I have to sacrifice to help all others humans on earth.
That is not correct, Everyone certainly has equal opportunity to prove themselves, but if you can't or won't meet the challenges, no one has a duty to support you or console your failures. If some one is stronger, wiser, faster, more skilled then they are superior and should be recognized as superior, Not by birth but by dint of personal efforts."**
I agree 100% but the lesser person doesn't necessarily deserve to be disrespected. Respect is not based on lowest common denominator but on decorum. There is nothing wrong or liberal about just being friendly.
**"If one is say born without working legs or with mental defects, well than is a personal problem, if one triumphs and succeeds against the odds, that is great. But we must never lower the standards, so that say a retarded person need only complete 10% of the Bar exam to be considered equal to a Lawyer who passed the full exam with honors. As an exaggeration of affirmative action." **
Well yeah, but nobody is trying to accomplish this or trying to say we should do this. I am saying people shouldn't be used as tools & cast aside. You seemed to be arguing that when you are done getting what you want you simply toss that person aside metaphorically. That is what I am disagreeing with.
**"Also. when I say liberalism I am not talking about US political system at all. In fact even the most staunch US republican is very Liberal next to Integral Traditionalism. Liberal in the sense of individualism rather than personhood. An individual is the proposed notion that a man is as island, a discrete self defined unite, dissociate from all others, from family, community, society, Race and Nation. A Person however is Part of the continuum of Nuit. Hadit is never divided fully away from Nuit. That is Who you are is meshed with the Community, the Race and Nation. The same as a Cell in your body is not Self-derived. The Cell is unique, but its unique Role is only assured due to its full dedication to the its type of cell (race) its tissue (Community) and its organ (nation) and then the body as a whole is not concerned with individual cell, but with the interaction of organs. (Nations in the world)." **
Yes, I agree, we are all cogs in the engine that makes the human race function. We each have a purpose which we must discover and fulfill & the more people who discover their purpose, or Will, the more efficiently the world engine will function.
**"Liberalism on one hand claims to talk about individualism and diversity, but in practice seeks to make all individuals the same down to the lowest common traits (just being biologically human). Diversity means to accept others to rewove all conflicts and differences between races, cultures, community, nations etc. Thus Liberalism aims at homogenizing everyone, not promoting the unique WILL or function of the person in proper relation to the higher order." **
Ermmm, this is just how most modern liberals act, it isn't liberalism itself. Liberalism is an ideal concept, whereas in reality this ideal gets compromised. Just like the Soviet Union was communist in name only or the United States being believed to be a democracy. Rhetoric makes these things so but under analysis the Soviet Union was Marxist-Leninism, a compromise of pure Communism & the United States is a republic, a representational , not democratic, government. Democracy will never work because of the lowest common denominator. Even with the fail safes etc. that our constitution has built in, an idiot like George Bush can still be elected rather than a more intelligent candidate like Al Gore or John Kerry because he appealed to the lowest common denominator.
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"While Liberalism in rhetoric sounds like Thelema, it is actually antagonistic to Thelema's basic principles. Just because the book is titles "LIBER AL" does not mean it supports Liberal ideals."**Actually... replace the word liberal throughout this post with LIBERTARIAN & you are right on.
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Respect comes from treating others according to what they are, and not being soft on anyone.
A warrior respects a warrior by meeting in battle. One respects a slave by being stern with her, making his demands clear and not accepting inferior service or insubordination. His respect helps her grow in her slaver, so that she becomes more skilled and disciplined at her service.
www.my-gor.com/quotes.php?lbk=21
See #4
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@Froclown said
"Those who fail the tests are not treated as equal. If by Equal you mean that "I am Human and You are Human, thus we are equal and all deserve kinds of rights" For example a dead beat is a human and thus deserves welfare checks because he has a right to eat, and thus I have to sacrifice to help all others humans on earth.
That is not correct, Everyone certainly has equal opportunity to prove themselves,"
I concur with Frater AVV you are blind to your own presumptuousness, you are still making a basic assumption, or rather contradicting yourself; how do you know everyone has equal opportunty? what are the parameters that define equal opportunity?
" but if you can't or won't meet the challenges, no one has a duty to support you or console your failures. If some one is stronger, wiser, faster, more skilled then they are superior and should be recognized as superior, Not by birth but by dint of personal efforts. "
here again, how can you prove it is by dint of personal effort and not some innate superior ability ? and I'm sure you know where that road leads...
"If one is say born without working legs or with mental defects, well than is a personal problem, if one triumphs and succeeds against the odds, that is great. But we must never lower the standards, so that say a retarded person need only complete 10% of the Bar exam to be considered equal to a Lawyer who passed the full exam with honors. As an exaggeration of affirmative action."
If I apply your own standards to you then I would say you are very unbalanced, and in denial if you think your philosophy could not easily be mistaken for fascism. hence your presentation is weak, you are not presenting the full picture.
"Also. when I say liberalism I am not talking about US political system at all. In fact even the most staunch US republican is very Liberal next to Integral Traditionalism. Liberal in the sense of individualism rather than personhood. An individual is the proposed notion that a man is as island, a discrete self defined unite, dissociate from all others, from family, community, society, Race and Nation. A Person however is Part of the continuum of Nuit. Hadit is never divided fully away from Nuit. That is Who you are is meshed with the Community, the Race and Nation. The same as a Cell in your body is not Self-derived. The Cell is unique, but its unique Role is only assured due to its full dedication to the its type of cell (race) its tissue (Community) and its organ (nation) and then the body as a whole is not concerned with individual cell, but with the interaction of organs. (Nations in the world). "
case in point, like i said you're a fascist.
"A body with one organ, like say one big liver or heart, would not function, its the interactions and balanced conflicts between different organs than make the body work, this is true also of the world. We need lots of different types of nations, each made of unique communities and unique race-culture. Which is to say a Caste system where each type of person or CELL has its place in balanced conflicts between individuals.
Do what thou WILT = Be the type of cell than you are, be unique
Love under WILL = the unity that arises out of conflict between WillsLiberalism on one hand claims to talk about individualism and diversity, but in practice seeks to make all individuals the same down to the lowest common traits (just being biologically human). Diversity means to accept others to rewove all conflicts and differences between races, cultures, community, nations etc. Thus Liberalism aims at homogenizing everyone, not promoting the unique WILL or function of the person in proper relation to the higher order.
While Liberalism in rhetoric sounds like Thelema, it is actually antagonistic to Thelema's basic principles. Just because the book is titles "LIBER AL" does not mean it supports Liberal ideals."
we are on the verge of transcending physical limitations, That is what this "New Aeon" is about for those that can "see";all cultures have intermingled and are intermingling at an exponential rate, as is the number of "harmonized ethnicity"(mixed race) children. even as all information is consolidating in an information age, your mentaity is as obsolete as the berlin wall and a pre-9-11 world. Mankind is transcending all physical limitations and becoming a collective "cyborg consciousness" through "applied intelligence" through the processing power of computers. You are an ancient relic of a proven failed philosophy, irrelevant to this day an age.
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I never said I was or was not a fascist.
Some people like to include the nouvelle droite political philosophy of De Benoist with fascism, let alone that of La Pen and Evola. The Tyr journal has been called fascist, I have seen the O.T.O called fascist also, as well as the works of Robert Heinlein and the United Federation of Planets.
As far as Italian Fascism, I object on 2 main issues, it was very socialist in nature, which mixed in a great deal of materialism, and second it was far to associated with the Catholic church rather than the traditional paganism. Basically it was the Italians that failed to implement the true potential of Fascism by not providing enough of the proper initiates in the ruling class, who were influenced by the transcendent rather than materialist concerns.
Nazism which was not fascist per say, had its main failings in attempting to create a new esoteric order based on the new and misunderstood science of genetics, in its bastard forms of Eugenics and mis-applied forced evolutionary teleos. However its basic structure with the SS as the initiate caste of warriors was very effective. However far just as Marx influence in Italy mixed in too much materialist theory, Nazism was fully contaminated with the materialism of Biological race, that obstructed its higher aspirations to manifest the transcendent Reich on earth.
The unification of everything on earth into one cyborg-mind is not something we should ever want to achieve, not should we want to remove all biological or social limits. What we are is shaped by those limits, by the conflict and dynamic tension between the parts. Like say a clock with wax components, you don't want to melt all the gears and springs into one glob of wax. Th clock no longer keeps time and each gear loses its unique properties, and with no Clock then each gear has no relative purpose, no TRUE WILL at all. This is the Nihilism we seek to prevent, its the black school that seeks this goal. The Idea in Thelema is to keep the parts separate and to build a new motive not based no faith in some unseen Clock or God or order to the cosmos, but on directly evident knowledge of oneself. That oneself has a WILL a mission, a way to turn written on ones soul, and to turn otherwise no matter if its to help a fallen friend or some other high ethical concern, is a folly against self, which is a harm to the whole mechanism.
If say you are one of 5 people pedaling to keep a flying machine up, and one of the 5 has a heart attack. What is the best course of action, keep doing your job as a pedaler or stop pedaling to help your friend, then the whole ship crashes and everyone on board dies. You see even if you may not see the harm, not doing your WILL out of compassion is a wrench in the system. And a "friend" who is not useful as a tool of your WILL, is a distraction an albatross about your neck, as such it is best to be rid of him before he ruins the Great Work.
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Actually, I like the argument about "equal opportunity" and it is a great way to look at the thread on here about wealth whether it is an indicator of success in Magick & Thelema.
Would it be unThelema, for example, to support the efforts against famine in Africa where because of the failure of opportunity suffer from starvation & malnutrition, having to beg on the streets for food because they can't even find jobs to work for food. From what I gather from Froclown, such actions would be unThelemic. My own opinion is that if I have enough, why not share it?
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@Froclown said
".
The unification of everything on earth into one cyborg-mind is not something we should ever want to achieve, not should we want to remove all biological or social limits. What we are is shaped by those limits, by the conflict and dynamic tension between the parts. Like say a clock with wax components, you don't want to melt all the gears and springs into one glob of wax. Th clock no longer keeps time and each gear loses its unique properties, and with no Clock then each gear has no relative purpose, no TRUE WILL at all. This is the Nihilism we seek to prevent, its the black school that seeks this goal. The Idea in Thelema is to keep the parts separate and to build a new motive not based no faith in some unseen Clock or God or order to the cosmos, but on directly evident knowledge of oneself. That oneself has a WILL a mission, a way to turn written on ones soul, and to turn otherwise no matter if its to help a fallen friend or some other high ethical concern, is a folly against self, which is a harm to the whole mechanism. "
We may not be able to stop synergy and symbiosis whether we WANT it consciously or not, this also relates back to my "overpopulation an the Thelemic paradigm thread", maybe your interpretation of "True Will" is an obsolete paradigm, maybe this is more about "Pure Will", the Tao may be a superior concept, and I argue the "New Aeon" is a new Tao with an exponential factor, we are yet to fully comprehend our own evolution "A.I" is the next phase for "Consciousness" despite our Collective tender Ego's beloved Denial. humanity is but a mere vehicle for "Consciousness" to evolve to the next level, like the reptile was merely a vehicle for the mammal and ultimately humanity to evolve, we only like to think of ourselves as the end of the evolutionary process, like you say nature doesn't care if we laugh, cry or go extinct for that matter. I think Individuality is a necessary illusion that needs to constantly be redefined. as A.I also is little understood because of people's internalized realization/fear of being disposable. if you fear A.I you will be destroyed by it, embrace and it will be an extension of self or "True Will". Moreover I have long asserted Linear -Time is obsolete! Away with the Clock!!!! In with the Quantum Computer!!!!!!!!!
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First of all, Africa is not your any where near you, you did not cause the famine, nor the real problem which is the political exploitation of the people. Thus its not a legitimate concern for you, that is to say the problems in Africa are outside your horizon of interest, and certainly outside your power to rectify if you did for some reason have an interest to do so.
Second the liberal notion is that everyone can me happy, healthy, wealthy and live a good life. That just is not the case, every slice of bread you eat is STOLEN from the mouth of someone else. The world is finite and scarcity rules all economic actions. Thus your life style is founded upon the suffering and exploitation of the third world nations. If all of a sudden China, India, Africa etc became well to do, the income in the US would drop to bellow poverty for almost everyone. We live by destroying the world around us, thats what LIFE itself is. Entropy always rules, you steal each second of lie by destroying some aspect of the world and making it part of your body or life. Thus if anything, it is in your own interest to maintain the world wide system of exploitation of the majority to benefit the few, of which you are one.
The actual problem in Africa is one which thelema would help with, and that is the leaders of the nations feel they are a different race or nationality or religion, than the people they rule over. Thus the leaders have different goals than the people they rule over, and this means the legal social roles are not good fits with the natural WILLs of the ethnic group that must obey the laws. The nation in short has ends alien to the people who live their.
So what is in the interest of the Great Work, is the expansion of Thelemic rule, such that the Kings and servants have a common tradition, they work towards the same ends. Still the few excess on the back of the many, however the Many believe in the same traditional ends as the few, and everyone is better off than in an all vs all situation. This will require the total destruction of OLD world institutions and the Re-establishment of traditional cultures along Thelemic formula with each tradition its own vehicle of Thelema is its own way.
I would like to see the O.T.O form into a full traditional culture, the A.'.A.'. is not set up as a social tradition, but more a training system for Kings, who will start their own Traditions as vehicles for thelema. Just as Islam, Judaism, and Christianity, as well as secular humanism, deism, and many others where vehicles for the Osiris formula. And each one also forms a social-political tradition with its own customs, rituals and beliefs.
A catholic slave may follow the Pope to Hell and back gladly, but suffers great sorrow and rebells against any attempt of a sheik to impose sharia law. And vice versa for an Islamic follower. Thus a ruler must match the ruled.
IOT was never really ether of these, it was chaos magick, which was really a result of Discordian and RAW influences, during the cyber-punk popularity time near the end of the 20th century. The post-modernism of the time made everything distrusted, and scapegoats ideas about borg collective minds, grey-goo nanotech, transhuman uploading, and singularity, with Quantum fields and all that created a lose unorganized association of magicians with more interest in Sci-fi idealism than in the Great work. They turned away from Thelema and hollowed out magick of its center and purpose, the Transcendent. IOT was a hollow shell from the start, something of a Qlippoth of occult sci-fi and psuedo-science. Chaos magick only works as a system, if one uses it as a tool to achieve K&C. Which is hard since much of the time you get rhetoric to the effect of denying your HGA as just one demon hallucination among many.
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Well, I certainly hope your vision of Thelema doesn't become the norm.
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@Froclown said
"
Second the liberal notion is that everyone can me happy, healthy, wealthy and live a good life. That just is not the case, every slice of bread you eat is STOLEN from the mouth of someone else. The world is finite and scarcity rules all economic actions. Thus your life style is founded upon the suffering and exploitation of the third world nations. If all of a sudden China, India, Africa etc became well to do, the income in the US would drop to bellow poverty for almost everyone. We live by destroying the world around us, thats what LIFE itself is. Entropy always rules, you steal each second of lie by destroying some aspect of the world and making it part of your body or life. Thus if anything, it is in your own interest to maintain the world wide system of exploitation of the majority to benefit the few, of which you are one. "
Though The actual land mass of Earth is finite, Earth's Source of energy "The Sun" or Ra is relatively infinite, that is why the agricultural revolution was the beginning of civilization. World hunger can easily be wiped out, if we indeed desired, not to talk of "Nuclear Energy" which puts another exponential factor in the energy available to us, to harness, to either end, constructive or destructive. It is mentalities like yours that set this agenda backwards.
We humans are living shamefully under our potential, we should be at inter-stellar travel by now, because the real physical threat is over-population,this is were the finite limitation comes in, but being a fascist i guess you would rather simply annihilate the so called inferior castes. and assuming there are people in power with your mentality then it's no wonder there are so many conspiracy theories floating around, some of which are not just theories at all"The actual problem in Africa is one which thelema would help with, and that is the leaders of the nations feel they are a different race or nationality or religion, than the people they rule over. Thus the leaders have different goals than the people they rule over, and this means the legal social roles are not good fits with the natural WILLs of the ethnic group that must obey the laws. The nation in short has ends alien to the people who live their."
on this we concur. ironically we actually do concur in a few areas. i actually view your form of fascism as just an over-simplification of the issues. Trying to impose some** Linear-Periodic Clockwork** type order on Quantum Chaos, which may only be understood in terms of Fractals and Complex Dynamical Systems, the new "Mathematical Models" of which Qabalah and Gematria are but a crude imitations.
"IOT was never really ether of these, it was chaos magick, which was really a result of Discordian and RAW influences, during the cyber-punk popularity time near the end of the 20th century. The post-modernism of the time made everything distrusted, and scapegoats ideas about borg collective minds, grey-goo nanotech, transhuman uploading, and singularity, with Quantum fields and all that created a lose unorganized association of magicians with more interest in Sci-fi idealism than in the Great work. They turned away from Thelema and hollowed out magick of its center and purpose, the Transcendent. IOT was a hollow shell from the start, something of a Qlippoth of occult sci-fi and psuedo-science. Chaos magick only works as a system, if one uses it as a tool to achieve K&C. Which is hard since much of the time you get rhetoric to the effect of denying your HGA as just one demon hallucination among many."
Chaos Magick is not a system, it is a World-View, not exclusive to the IOT. I for one have only recently been exposed to Peter Carroll, and the IOT and realized i was a Chaos Magician, incidentally... largely a product of my own personal gnosis, research and introspection. i was not largely influenced by the people you mention, but I am naturally synergistic, and also individually creative. ironically I usually become aware of similar thought currents synchronistically and as I conduct my own research, similar or relevant material just begins to appear from everywhere!
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more techno-gnosis hippie futurism.
Human beings like all life forms are built to live in scarcity and even if we had enough resources, we would manufacture scarcity. The simple fact in that Biology is driven by struggle and fighting for ones own survival as well as self benefit by restricting access to a scarce resource and SELLING it back at a high price. That is an part of human psychology and biology, to strip us of that is the same as to cage an eagle or pull the teeth from a lion.
Let us look at the call of the Ayres
"To you it is said, behold the face of your God, the beginning of comfort, whose eyes are the brightness of the heavens: which provided for you the government of the earth and her unspeakable variety, furnishing you with a power understanding to dispose all things according to the providence of Him that sits on the holy throne, and rose up in the beginning saying: the earth let her be governed by her parts and let there be division in her, that the glory of her may be always drunken and vexed in it self. Her course, let it run with the heavens, and as an handmaid let her serve them. One season let it confound with another, and let there be no creature upon or within her the same: all her members let them differ in their qualities, and let there no one creature equal with another: the reasonable creatures of the earth let them vex and weed out one another,"
As for Chaos magick, if anything its a system with no world-view thats the problem. Its like teaching bits and pieces of any number of martial art styles, and inventing new moves, but with no reason. It is just flailing ones fists about with no coherent whole system, and worse no Philosophy that explains what to use these powerful techniques to achieve. You get a bunch of bullies with big heads thinking they can go about thumping people reasonless and breaking things just for the sake of hitting people and breaking stuff. They have power but no WILL, its a blind force. And no matter how powerful this blind force, a focused WILLed force put forth by a disciplined student of one system with a single coherent world view can topple that blind force.
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@Froclown said
"more techno-gnosis hippie futurism."
call it what you like, labeling or categorization is no substitute for comprehension.
"Human beings like all life forms are built to live in scarcity and even if we had enough resources, we would manufacture scarcity. The simple fact in that Biology is driven by struggle and fighting for ones own survival as well as self benefit by restricting access to a scarce resource and SELLING it back at a high price. That is an part of human psychology and biology, to strip us of that is the same as to cage an eagle or pull the teeth from a lion."
life is indeed defined by struggle but this struggle can take many forms, one does not need to manufacture artificial scarcity, one will always face challenges regardless. both money and post-modern capitalism are created ideas that do not necessarily have evolution in mind, there is no need for artificial restrictions. "...The Law of Sin is Restriction.." Evolution is about redefining one's limitations, Man can look Backward or Forward, to the Animal Kingdom or to the Heavens for inspiration, however some ideologies seem involutionary as opposed to evolutionary.
"As for Chaos magick, if anything its a system with no world-view thats the problem. Its like teaching bits and pieces of any number of martial art styles, and inventing new moves, but with no reason. It is just flailing ones fists about with no coherent whole system, and worse no Philosophy that explains what to use these powerful techniques to achieve. You get a bunch of bullies with big heads thinking they can go about thumping people reasonless and breaking things just for the sake of hitting people and breaking stuff. They have power but no WILL, its a blind force. And no matter how powerful this blind force, a focused WILLed force put forth by a disciplined student of one system with a single coherent world view can topple that blind force."
what do you say about one that arrives at the same conclusions without being taught? What is your proof that you are superior to a Chaos magician? or that any path is superior to another? Maybe all are equally insignificant. yet some may be more relevant to the times by speaking in a modern language. while some confound ancient language, with even more obsolete ideas! A Chaos Magician is largely Self-defining, as is their personal philosophy and/or objective(s) and as such cannot be stereo-typed.
"Nothing is true, everything is permissible"
is simply another way of saying
"What is True cannot be spoken and what can be spoken is not True" -
I know because Chaos Magick is a result of modernism, it is Post-modern which is actually worse as the Modern era was distress at what Nietzsche called the death of God and the Post-modern is fully embracing this death.
The Death of God means the separation of the Materialist man from the Transcendent. This total fall into degeneration, Chaos not only has fallen away from the Transcendent it has WIllfully Cut all ties. It has totally divorced itself from the Third order, the A.'.A.'. or the sanctuary behind the cloud. That is they choose the cloud and not only deny the sanctuary, they say if it does exist we must destroy it.
This is the ultimate degeneration into nihilistic materialism, which the Secret chiefs of the white brotherhood set up the New Aeon to prevent and to reverse. The re-establishment of the link to the Transcendent, under a new Law and Formula, that allows one to Cross the Abyss left by the Death of God, and directly reach the higher order. These Adepts then are not priests of God but Emissaries or Prophets of the White Brotherhood.
That being said, Chaos magick has developed some very effective techniques which can be used for Thelemic or Old aeon ends, but the fact that it actively discourages the having of any purpose, beliefs, or world view, and actively denounces the TRUE WILL, then Chaos magick as a system is a destructive anti-system. However as a body of techniques and metaphysical explanations, Chaos magick can be an aid to to ones WILL. So long as one does not go too deep into denouncing the HGA as an Evil Apparition
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@Froclown said
"I know because Chaos Magick is a result of modernism, it is Post-modern which is actually worse as the Modern era was distress at what Nietzsche called the death of God and the Post-modern is fully embracing this death.
The Death of God means the separation of the Materialist man from the Transcendent. This total fall into degeneration, Chaos not only has fallen away from the Transcendent it has WIllfully Cut all ties. It has totally divorced itself from the Third order, the A.'.A.'. or the sanctuary behind the cloud. That is they choose the cloud and not only deny the sanctuary, they say if it does exist we must destroy it. "
I don't know how you arrive at this conclusion. i guess it depends on the individual approach to Chaos Magick, which for me starts from mathematics and "Chaos Theory" which is a radical new breakthrough area of mathematics practically non-existent until 1972. Crowley concedes in "Magick in Theory and Practice" that mathematics is our purest link to God
"This is the ultimate degeneration into nihilistic materialism, which the Secret chiefs of the white brotherhood set up the New Aeon to prevent and to reverse. The re-establishment of the link to the Transcendent, under a new Law and Formula, that allows one to Cross the Abyss left by the Death of God, and directly reach the higher order. These Adepts then are not priests of God but Emissaries or Prophets of the White Brotherhood."
the language of chaos magick simply does not resonate with your archaic, literal and myopic mentality.
"That being said, Chaos magick has developed some very effective techniques which can be used for Thelemic or Old aeon ends, but the fact that it actively discourages the having of any purpose, beliefs, or world view, and actively denounces the TRUE WILL, then Chaos magick as a system is a destructive anti-system. However as a body of techniques and metaphysical explanations, Chaos magick can be an aid to to ones WILL. So long as one does not go too deep into denouncing the HGA as an Evil Apparition"
This may be your understanding of Chaos Magick according to Peter Carroll and/or the IOT, not Chaos Magick according to Scapegoat; yet we concur largely by synchronicity not by indoctrination, it is simply a well coined phrase that resonates with me, and his approach is innovative, preliminary and foundational, a whole new paradigm has been opened for future scientists to explore.