Obama Nation of Desolation?

Frater Pantha

"93,
There are two types of people who dont want you to talk about politics and religion: the people who control politics & religion, and the people who are too weak to engage in actual debate.
IAO131"

There are also those of us that realize that what the thinker thinks -- the prover proves (Robert Anton Wilson's). Unless the person that you are going to have the conversation with is looking to change their opinions (or doesn't have any opinion that they are attached to) -- you are not going to reach them or change their mind. You can debate them and beat them to a bloody pulp with the rules of logic (or any other weapon) and it doesn't mean you have changed ANYTHING. Unless they choose to think differently you are just as likely to have proven to them not that your opinion in a debate was correct -- but that you are a total jackass that they do not want share the same point of view with you. People process what they want to. Most of the time people only process the information that “proves” what they already “think”.
I do still debate people sometimes, but I don't delude myself into thinking I am going to change anyone else’s mind. I debate because I enjoy it (sometimes) and because it helps me to consider why I think as I do.
It might be useful to honestly ask yourself if you have ever seen a Hindu/Christian/Moslem in a religious debate suddenly throw up their hands and say "Alright! I was wrong! I am changing my religion!". I have never seen that, and I have never seen a hardcore Liberal or Conservative suddenly surrender what they already think in ANY debate. It is very possible that nearly all debates are a waste of time, and that some people don't debate because they don't want to waste their time.
For the record I think Obamas win was business as usual. Not one 3rd party was allowed on the ballot for President in my State. 3rd parties were also shut out of the debates around the nation. America had a choice between two Washington insiders both claiming to be for "change" and "outsiders" -- and that isn't much of a choice at all. All the real outsiders that would have meant truly historic change were blocked out of the process from the start.

Shachdar

93 Frater Pantha,

VERY WELL PUT!!!

93 93/93.'.

James

Kohen ha-Gadhel
Albuquerque, NM

Anonymous

I never argue with people, cuz for

I don't give a shit what anyone else thinks
&
Learned a long time ago, you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink!!

Fuck Obama btw.

__THE_HERMIT__

excuse me while i put on my Devil's Advocate Hat.. ..ok..
it seems obvious to me that Capitalism in it's present form is completely incompatible with the ideal of "True Democracy" period. Capitalism requires Capital and necessitates Classism; the exploitation of the labourers & working class who remain underpaid and increasingly impoverished especially by the hidden tax of "Inflation", The concept of Capitalism is rooted in exploitation, and in the policy of the U.S today, it is effectively imperialism as seen in the attempt to control Eurasia, (in the name of a "war on terror") where the Majority of the world's human and natural resources are located. Obama is even more of an Imperialist than Mccain, right from initial debates he called for unilateral bombing of the sovereign country of Pakistan, simultaneously calling for increased troops in Afghanistan, inadvertently seeking to expand the U.S Empire further east, steadily encroaching on the border of China, Europe's/ U.S main threat to world-domination. How did the concept of democracy deteriorate into a two-party system ultimately controlled by the same interests? Why do people stand for this? Why are other voices drowned out of the media? The reason why one of these two parties always wins is because everyone already buys into the fact. If everyone voted for Nader would he not win? Or do the votes not really count? I think that anyone who blames Nader for Al Gore's loss is seriously naive, I mean com'on now?? Jeb Bush was the Governor of Florida at that time, and even a moderate would admit the Bush's are not the most forthright of individual's (hard to be when you're creating a dynasty). The war in Iraq is the greatest travesty in modern times, based on lie after lie, followed closely by the series of government bailouts for the rich, still there is no conspiracy? No global agenda?? Man I wonder how it feels to have the mind of a sheep?
Ron Paul is the closest thing to a step in the right direction, with his single most important policy of creating "Sound Money". And abolishing THE ABOMINATION OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE SYSTEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How does one compete with people that create value out of thin air? Man this subject is Mind-Boggling to me. Government is a farce, in its present state, the unbearable and malevolent "Shackles of Mankind" and will eventually lead to mankind's atrophy and ultimate extinction if care is not taken. Furthermoe I cannot understand why England and by default conutries like Canada still bear allegiance to that ancient relic known as "Monarchy" & the good for nothing "The Queen" the very symbol of elitism and classism, which is inherently diametrically opposed to the concept of equal opportunity and hence "Democracy" although they claim she is merely "symbolic"( although we are not told symbolic of what?) in practicality this does not translate (just ask Dianna & Dodi Fayed), these concepts are simply incompatible, and you wonder why the average Englishman is so confused as to his identity. I could go on and on..but this is where I will stop for now. As a social animal man is extremely confused.

Froclown

what is wrong with monarchy not inherited monarchy, but the system where the strong leader steps up out of the confused and befuddled masses with a clear and wise course of action, and who has a plan and method to gain the respect of the people and organizes them to the common good.

In fact such a leader, creates the values, the virtues, the customs of the people, the leader is the WILL of the masses, the very essence of the people, made flesh. As such this King has the metaphysical Right to rule, not because he was voted by the majority, bot because the people elect the king (the people do not know what is best for them by conscious thought, only when its put into action and the king coerces the people through fire and hard times, to come out better off a superior people).

Such a King is not elected nor takes power by manipulation against the essence of the people, much less via economic prowess. instead such superior men are created, they are metaphysical creations, forged in the fires of initiations. The means to their creation are set forth in Crowley's letter to probationers. Where he names them Genius or Christs.

Anonymous

"Such a King is not elected nor takes power by manipulation against the essence of the people, much less via economic prowess. instead such superior men are created, they are metaphysical creations, forged in the fires of initiations. The means to their creation are set forth in Crowley's letter to probationers. Where he names them Genius or Christs."

Which Buddha or Christ do you imagine wanting to rule an Earthly kingdom?

I never can tell the difference between the ideal you think we should evolve toward and the "ideals" through which we have already evolved. What are you suggesting but what has been believed by every culture that has ever believed their king was the sun god? There is the ideal and the reality. They failed because of human frailty. Emerging from "the confused and befuddled masses with a clear and wise course of action"...? Yes, that would be the situation because there would be no stable transfer of power. When a challenger to the throne arose, would they have a swordfight to determine who had the divine right to rule?

I guess what I'm saying is that I can never get past the idea with your "ideal State" that we have already tried believing in that.

Froclown

I see you think the future lies in believing something new, when in truth it lies not in believing in the ideas than were misrepresented via the failure of Christianity. The new aeon resides with the re-establishment of the solar-phallic king, not with the continuation of Christ's ideals that lead into nihilism.

Anonymous

I suggest you pull out a dollar bill and observe the symbolism.

To suggest that Equality and Democracy are the perversions of Christianity is simply to be uninformed.

Are you watching Iran at all?

Perhaps you need a vision of a collective Horus. I point you to the Declaration of Independence.

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security."

The system that these people created is *large enough *to allow societal evolution within it. Your ideal of a leader emerging from the masses... That's what already happens! It's what already has happened! In fact, they were so enlightened that they turned down the personal power and temptation of monarchy and, in that act, ensured we had a truly enlightened form of government.

There are two ways to transfer political power: by death and by vote. There will either be dynasties, bloody revolutions, or elections. You don't get a fourth option. Perhaps you will never seek to reproduce your genes. Those of us who will continue the survival of the species want stable, secure environments in which our offspring can not only survive but thrive. Whether you can step outside of your idealism long enough to see it or not, there's too much blood in your system. The rest of humanity seems to want to evolve beyond that constant, institutionally-based source of death, vendetta, and economic instability. The people will kill anyone who tries to force that on them again. There's your Law of the Strong right there...

See, it already works like you suggest! Rise up from the confused and befuddled masses to conquer and lead us if I am wrong!

Your ideal has already proven unworkable in Egypt and Rome - failed attempts... Democracy was born out of their ashes, and the United States was the first beacon State of the "Novus Ordo Seclorum." It's you who are lost in the past. I encourage you to get on board.

The weakness of democracy is identical to its strength. It moves with the level of enlightenment of the society. But you would have us be in the same situation as North Korea or Iran, led by men who are absolutely convinced of their right to obtain and protect their personal power.... again.

And as an aside, the very same version of Christianity that you loathe was given form by the "initiated monarch" Constantine, who called together and presided over the first Ecumenical Council at Nicea.

You may thank your own ideals for the Nicene Creed you hate.

Scarecrow

Froclown - without attacking you personally, I have to say that your posts constantly remind me of the Governator sitting all by himself on the Conan throne in that one smoke filled scene in one of those muscle bound movies.

However I feel that in the context of this forum, your posts are somewhat valid since from what I know of AC, he seemed in favor of the enlightened King-Priest leading the masses. But maybe I'm wrong about that - anyone?

Also I agree with Frater AVV that "the stongest leader" has been tried over and over again in the past - and maybe continues to do so - just the definition of "strongest" might have changed.

Now the idea of a King-Priest - what defines "strongest"? Most evolved? - how would you even measure that. Most enlightened? - Same problem and furthermore, does enlightenment, or having moments of enlightenment really make a great leader?

On a final note - since this is a Thelemic forum - in all of your opinions, was AC himself a great, or even a good leader? Alright I'll admit that is based entirely on how one defines a good leader but I'll just throw this lob up and see what happens - to me AC seems like a terrible leader, but a wonderful prophet and an even better magician.

Froclown

Well actually it was not only Crowley but the occult world in general than espoused the ideal of initiated solar-phallic kings. In fact this was hallmark of the Pagan heroic ideal. Crowley was first and foremost of the same occult traditions of Plato, Machiavelli, Neitzche, Evola, with ideals of initiated god-men who rule by a familiarity with secret occult knowledge of the forms, the transcendent, the eternal return, etc. A sort of knowledge than can not be gleaned by reading passages, but must be directly experienced by initiations, rituals, methods of self cultivation and development of dormant senses. (as the spiritual sense spoken of in the cloud upon the sanctuary and the Faculty X of Colin Wilson). This sense of faculty that must be awakened and developed allows one to experience the dimensions, astral world, secret energies, or whatever metaphor, Crowley called this ophidian energy sometimes.
In any event possession of this faculty and skill is what makes a king.

Now for the problems of Christianity
"Actually, one finds in Christianity the seeds of the great mutations that gave birth to the secular ideologies of the first post-revolutionary era. Individualism was already present in the notion of individual salvation and of an intimate and privileged relation between an individual and God that surpasses any relation on earth. Egalitarianism is rooted in the idea that redemption is equally available to all mankind, since all are endowed with an individual soul whose absolute value is shared by all humanity. Progressivism is born of the idea that history has an absolute beginning and a necessary end, and that it unfolds globally according to a divine plan. Finally, universalism is the natural expression of a religion that claims to manifest a revealed truth which, valid for all men, summons them to conversion. Modern political life itself is founded on secularized theological concepts. Reduced to an opinion among others, today Christianity has unwittingly become the victim of the movement it started. In the history of the West, it became the religion of the way out of religion." (home.alphalink.com.au/~radnat/debenoist/alain9.html)

Froclown

I don't want to waste space posting the whole letter from Grady to Crowley here, but I shall link to it. This letter I believe indicates that Grady had a strong Liberal-communist influence on Thelema. A great deal of the decay from the heroic pagan ideals and solar Tradition, that have weakened the current, I believe can be tranced back to Grady.

www.billheidrick.com/tlc2000/tlc0800.htm
scroll down until you reach this point
Primary Sources

OZ, yourself!
Here's another early letter from Grady McMurtry to Aleister Crowley. It's quite argumentative, so much so that some might have tossed the thing, together with the young man to boot. Instead, Crowley continued the correspondence and, after meeting Grady, got even by putting him in line for succession to head-ship of OTO.

__THE_HERMIT__

Froclown,

Firstly I followed the link and actually thought that it was a very good letter; however what I want from you now is to explain how this system you propose would work? How would this Solar- Phallic king be recognized? How would one choose between a number of adepts? How would this system be structured and/or rules enforced? In a global scenario are there to be multiple Solar-Phallic Kings? What happens if the Solar-Phallic king makes and error? What would be the checks and balances? Isn't it true that Initiates and Adepts, do not necessarily share the same political philosophy? At least judging by this forum, especially if all you, or even some of you, self-proclaimed 8=3's are to be believed?.. there is hardly any consensus!! Finally, how would the average voter today be made to buy into this process? Please break down the whole political structure and process from top to bottom, or bottom to top, if you can??

Anonymous

@Froclown said

"Well actually it was not only Crowley but the occult world in general than espoused the ideal of initiated solar-phallic kings. In fact this was hallmark of the Pagan heroic ideal. Crowley was first and foremost of the same occult traditions of Plato, Machiavelli, Neitzche, Evola, with ideals of initiated god-men who rule by a familiarity with secret occult knowledge of the forms, the transcendent, the eternal return, etc. A sort of knowledge than can not be gleaned by reading passages, but must be directly experienced by initiations, rituals, methods of self cultivation and development of dormant senses. (as the spiritual sense spoken of in the cloud upon the sanctuary and the Faculty X of Colin Wilson). This sense of faculty that must be awakened and developed allows one to experience the dimensions, astral world, secret energies, or whatever metaphor, Crowley called this ophidian energy sometimes.
In any event possession of this faculty and skill is what makes a king. "

And which of them, for all their idealising ... Indeed, who in all of history has been able to achieve this goal? I mean, I'm* certain* the idea has been used to subjugate the masses with religion and superstition for millenia. In fact, I'm having a difficult time thinking of any ancient culture that didn't use that very line of thought to assert their Divine Right to do anything they pleased. And history is full of the stories of either their bloody corruption or their bloody overthrow.

I don't care who espoused the idea in the past you'd love to return to. Like you, they were longing for an ideal that cannot be sustained even if it could be achieved once. It has demonstrated itself to be unstable, unsustainable, and undesirable again and again.

Again, and again.

That's the thing that you're just not getting.

We've been there. We've tried that. I encourage you to examine absolutely every culture on Earth before 1776.

"
Now for the problems of Christianity
"Actually, one finds in Christianity the seeds of the great mutations that gave birth to the secular ideologies of the first post-revolutionary era. Individualism was already present in the notion of individual salvation and of an intimate and privileged relation between an individual and God that surpasses any relation on earth. Egalitarianism is rooted in the idea that redemption is equally available to all mankind, since all are endowed with an individual soul whose absolute value is shared by all humanity. Progressivism is born of the idea that history has an absolute beginning and a necessary end, and that it unfolds globally according to a divine plan. Finally, universalism is the natural expression of a religion that claims to manifest a revealed truth which, valid for all men, summons them to conversion. Modern political life itself is founded on secularized theological concepts. Reduced to an opinion among others, today Christianity has unwittingly become the victim of the movement it started. In the history of the West, it became the religion of the way out of religion." (home.alphalink.com.au/~radnat/debenoist/alain9.html)"

Don't you get this either? At the Council of Nicea, one of your "initiated monarchs"
turned Christianity into this shadow of itself that believed it had to come to ONE AND ONLY ONE interpretation. It became a matter of "majority rule," and ever since, the great enlightened and mystical minds of Christianity have been cast out of "orthodoxy."

Every, absolutely EVERY sin you lay on Christianity stems from the fact that an Emperor decided to set the precedent of forcing a debate, "voting" on orthodoxy, and persecuting the minority opinion. If he had not done this, Christianity may have ended up much more like Hinduism in all its tolerance of other branches.

Your problem with Christianity is a direct, full-blooded descendent of the same ideals you are espousing.

They sound nice, but they don't work.

Froclown

You dr not get it, The ideal I espouse is one of what Crowley called manliness and Nietzsche the Will to Power.

That human beings are not happy like fattened cattle, domesticated beast, that Globalism is to be opposed likewise democracy. That we a life of conflict makes men strong and virile, that the friction between small groups drives us to true greatness.

That in democracy and so called freedom, (it is not freedom, it is the easy life of a Fat cow) men become weak, they lose the warrior spirit, become docile, depressed, turn from their natural lust for conquest and sublimate themselves in the cinema, addiction to drunkeness, sloth, and those who still possess a degree of manliness become thieves, gangsters, and profiteers over selling sublimative drugs, betting games, prostitution, to the masses who prefer to PAY for easy access to vices, rather than Earn them in battlee. These gangs terrorize ones own people, rather than engage in competitive sport and battle with true rivals communities. The inner community is distraught with conflicts and chaos as we attempt to forge unnatural global ties with between communities.
We are Rotting within and spread that Rot of liberalism to the rest of the world, in the name of freedom.

The point at which Christianity when wrong, (and even Judaism before it held the same slave mentality) was when Jesus taught that we are to idealize ourselves as Sheep and Jesus as the greatest sheep of all. A sheep in about the most unmanly spirit animal possible. We should be rather Wolves, where the leader of the Pack is not the most complacent, the fattest, the most pampered, the most weighed down with wool. No, the leader of the wolf pack has virtues of the wolf, swiftness, strength, ability, prowess.

also in wolves and apes, the alphas go through hormonal changes, they grow longer canines, grow larger, and in apes the main grows and the back becomes silver. Also they under go behavior changes, that is the become Initiated.

__THE_HERMIT__

Froclown,

Did you read not my post above? your reply seems directed at Frater_AVV not me, are you unable to expound on your theories?

Froclown

ok a run down of what I am driving at here.

Firstly I don't mean to imply their is only one political structure for everyone, rather than small local systems would work out much of the specifics for themselves.

However, each would have some kind of social-spiritual leader who expresses the nature of the race.

Let us look to Liber B.

"Let Him then utter that without Fear, that the Law may be fulfilled. And according to His Original Nature will that law be shapen, so that one may declare gentleness and quietness, being an Hindu; and another fierceness and servility, being a Jew; and yet another ardour and manliness, being an Arab. Yet this matter toucheth the mystery of Incarnation, and is not here to be declared."

Being German-Irish myself one assumes my expression to be Willful and passionately indignant

Thus we find that the each race finds its apotheosis in the Magus of its own kind. Each ethnic local race then is spiritually the children of or the approximations to the Ideal of the Magus, who is not the living man, so much as an Idealized personification of the Race. The Egyptian Pharaoh was the personification of RA, the sun. Christ was the personification of Adonai, the lord (sun) and in the GD goal was to personify Orisis (in the Solar aspect or rebirth). Thelema does not change this, but now the formula of identification with the sun is Horus.

In the book of lies, the chapter 14 called onion peelings, shows us the in a sense the structure of things, as people are further removed from the attainment of the master, the hold a lower caste. not lower as in dirty or bad, but lower as in closer to the earth to material ends and concerns. Thus one shall assume their is a means to test the natural spiritual nature as well as the grade of advancement. Where the specifics will differ from race to race, and from caste to caste. The leaders of each will be in harmony with the nature of the people they order and as such have an empathy link to them that allows for a scientific method of resolving disputes, assigning work, and administering various sacraments and sermons, rituals, etc that fit the race, caste, and local social-political spiritual and physical concerns.

__THE_HERMIT__

@Froclown said

"

Thus we find that the each race finds its apotheosis in the Magus of its own kind. Each ethnic local race then is spiritually the children of or the approximations to the Ideal of the Magus, who is not the living man, so much as an Idealized personification of the Race. "

To a certain extent I would say your ideal is not entirely off, except for one thing...it applies to a time long since lost. Race purity is a myth, you don't even need to go back that far in history to realize this, whether it was "the Moors" in Spain. Rome itself was established with foreign women subdued forcibly. And this is exponentially more evident nowadays, just look around you, you don't have to even look past the top, the president of United States itself. This goes against the whole reality of globalization, which is driven by the forces of technology, media and commerce combined, how can this momentum be stopped anywhere short of a catastrophe of biblical proportions? Solar Phallic King? Maybe, Race Purity?? Impossible. You'll have to come from a different angle some other way of organizing like and like, cultures have intertwined and co-evolved, Music and Entertainment being no small part of it either, turn on the T.V., look at the news, see how much influence M.J had around the world!! The VERY HEADLINES AS WE SPEAK denounce the philosophy you preach! what better testimony could there be that you are a dinosaur!? Change the angle according to the terrain, according to Sun Tzu's "the art of war" the general must observe "Heaven and Earth". It could be "Like Minds" maybe ? "Like Souls" maybe? humanity is evolving past the limitation of "race" or rather "ethnicity"; the very word is divisive, because there is only one Human Race genetically.Things have changed even that drastically since AC's days! it is vehemently not the same world!!!!!!!Since then we have put a man on the Moon!! seen the birth and death of Rock and Roll, got MTV, CNN, and made the P.C a household appliance, and wait for it.. my favourite... ..here goes for the umpteenth time..the internet!!!!!!!!!!! by which means i hereby communicate with YOU!!!!!!! oblivious to your ethnicity!!! despite or in spite of whether you indicate or not!

RosenKreutz

There is no race, there is but ethnicity. We come in all colors but are generally the same. I say generally cause no two people are alike, even twins. I say people need to throw the concept of race where it belongs, recycled to some better end then trying to cause divisions in humanity.

Anonymous

@Froclown said

"You dr not get it, The ideal I espouse is one of what Crowley called manliness and Nietzsche the Will to Power.

That human beings are not happy like fattened cattle, domesticated beast, that Globalism is to be opposed likewise democracy. That we a life of conflict makes men strong and virile, that the friction between small groups drives us to true greatness.

That in democracy and so called freedom, (it is not freedom, it is the easy life of a Fat cow) men become weak, they lose the warrior spirit, become docile, depressed, turn from their natural lust for conquest and sublimate themselves in the cinema, addiction to drunkeness, sloth, and those who still possess a degree of manliness become thieves, gangsters, and profiteers over selling sublimative drugs, betting games, prostitution, to the masses who prefer to PAY for easy access to vices, rather than Earn them in battlee. These gangs terrorize ones own people, rather than engage in competitive sport and battle with true rivals communities. The inner community is distraught with conflicts and chaos as we attempt to forge unnatural global ties with between communities.
We are Rotting within and spread that Rot of liberalism to the rest of the world, in the name of freedom.

The point at which Christianity when wrong, (and even Judaism before it held the same slave mentality) was when Jesus taught that we are to idealize ourselves as Sheep and Jesus as the greatest sheep of all. A sheep in about the most unmanly spirit animal possible. We should be rather Wolves, where the leader of the Pack is not the most complacent, the fattest, the most pampered, the most weighed down with wool. No, the leader of the wolf pack has virtues of the wolf, swiftness, strength, ability, prowess.

also in wolves and apes, the alphas go through hormonal changes, they grow longer canines, grow larger, and in apes the main grows and the back becomes silver. Also they under go behavior changes, that is the become Initiated."

See, all you're doing is arguing for "fire," as if "water" is a bad thing. You're arguing for Severity as if Mercy is a bad thing. Change versus stability... It makes no sense. It is merely one of two balancing impulses of Life.

The structure of your government needs to reflect the balanced, stable, yet flexible structure of the entire Tree of Life - not merely the initiatory formula of even an entire Aeon. In my opinion, that's the kind of structure we have. It is flexible enough to move with Aeons and reflect the changes of the times in the struggles between the conservative and liberal parties, sometimes leaning toward severity, sometimes toward mercy as the situation warrants.

Your system, as passionately as you describe it, is stuck with the aggression peddle down, and has has absolutely no rationalization for any sort of stabilizing force. To you, it seems as if any stabilizing force is the enemy. As I said, you're pro "fire" and anti-"water." Fine, that's an excellent position to take - within a larger system that allows you express it and seek to move others toward it. But basing an entire system of government off of only that "firey" principle is shortsighted - like throwing gas on a cooking fire.