The Solar Phallic King
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@Froclown said
"just because one workers under a king, does not mean that the Kind forces you against your own WILL. "
yet elsewhere
@Froclown said
"The same is True with Slaves [as it is with tractors], their purpose is to serve and thus it is proper that they be USED up as fodder to ones own WILL, a tool run into the ground and used for a purpose that meets its talents. Be they mental or physical skills.
I would go so far as to say ideally with Thelema one self is King and all other humans, animals, objects, beliefs, etc are merely tools to be used, worn out, and cast aside, with no value in themselves but only as means to ones ends. "
and also
@Froclown said
"Thelema is to do away with all of this [egalitarian notions], and impose harsh standards on others, those who fail to meet up with ones standards are unfit and caste out of the social order. "Kings shall be kings forever, the slaves shall serve" "
yet
@Froclown said
"the book of the law cast off restrictions to your own, Will it doesn't remove all order and reason from the world. A worker bee does not sulk at not being a queen and seek to lay eggs."
Say one thing, and say it well. As it is, you paint a very conflicted and self-contradictory picture.
Also, your ideal "initiated monarch" is not only a complete douche, but he also apparently fits the DSM IV criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder. People don't joyfully serve such cancerous growths. They cut them out even if it means losing their own limbs. You may do a Google video search for the execution of Saddam Hussein if you need clarification about what happens to such "kings."
All that, and you didn't even attempt to answer either of the only questions that matter from a practical standpoint. Allow me to reproduce those questions so as to keep them from leaving the very forefront of anyone's mind:
"***1. Where does this steady supply of "initiated monarchs" come from? **
Does no one seek power nor have the strength to usurp power if they are not "rubber stamped" by the initiating bodies? And if so, don't the initiating bodies have more power than the king - deciding who may become one?
***2. What is the process of stable transfer of power from one unquestionably and plentiful "good king" to the next? ***
If it's not dynastic and if it doesn't mean we have another war every single time one king merely appears to be weak, then what is it? Is there no selfishness or greed in this utopia? Is there no misplaced power? If not, then why need a ruler?
These are the eternal problems of any ideal of "initiated monarchy," and they remain completely untouched and unresolved in this discussion. How then, can anyone yet take it seriously?. . . As it is, it strikes me as euphoric idealism divorced from any serious, practical conception of history or politics. "
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ok, on the firs point. If I was incarnated to serve, my WILL is to serve and I an genetically, culturally, and spiritually adapted to serve. Then my whole sense of self worth and dignity comes from servitude, in ones natural ability. Be that in academic skill, engineering, street sweeping, or butler work. The idea one is still a king in a spiritual sense because your are spiritually acting in line with your WILL, you are boding what you are designed to do. Even if you ae serving at the feet of a tyrant, and this groveling is your true nature, then you are a king and you heart swells with pride every time your maser compliments you. The kings tailor feels his pride when he sees the king looking regal and handsome on he news. The kings personal whore takes pride that her efforts keep the king from sexual frustration which migh lead to mistakes or bad decisions.
anyway. as to how can we create or select the kings or "geniuses" by whose light alone the world progresses I need only point you to the postcard to Probationers of the A.'A.'.
www.geocities.com/nu_isis/pc2prob.html
Thanks partly to William James' Varieties of Religious Experience, I got the idea ofemploying the methods of Yoga to produce genius at will. James points out that various religious teachers attained their power to influence mankind in hat is essentially the same way; that is, by getting into Samadhi. The trance gives supreme spiritual energy and absolute self-confidence; it removes the normal inhibitions to action. I propose then that any man should use this power to develop his faculties and inspire his ambitions by directing the effects of the trance into the channel of his career. (confessions ch 29)
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since we have all read the liberal propaganda against serving, all the modernist notions, that all people everywhere are born to desire absolute liberty and freedom, I will quote another way of looking at bondage. a Dostoevsky sort of view actually.
"We do not choose our Masters nor is it up to us, whether or not we will please them, or to what degree. We must strive be perfection all ways, for anyone. that is part of what is to be a slave. In reconciling myself to bondage I had, also, to reconcile myself to this condition, it is a part of bondage. It is something which the slave must accept. Without it there can be no true slavery. I had accepted this condition, at least theoretically, verbally acknowledging its incumbency on me, in my training. somehow, interestingly, this acceptance too, seemed liberating to me, it made my bondage much more real to me. Too, interestingly, in its way, it also made it seem much more precious to me." ~Page 92- Dancer of Gor
"The only freedom I would now desire," said Mira "would be the freedom to be totally a slave." ~Page 296 - Blood Brothers of Gor
"Surely it is better to have a true man on any terms than to have half a man or no man at all! Men are masters; if the man be strong, the woman must submit. given the opportunity to relate to a true man, few woman will settle for less. Indeed, true women, in the belly of them, desire to submit to true men. It is an ancient instinct bred into the bellies of beautiful, feminine women." ~Page 154 - Slave Girl of Gor
Of course this is fixated on sexual absolutes which I don't agree with, but we might say that some HGA are male and sme female in this Gorean formula, and most are in between. Crowle'y formula of babalon and eroto-comotose-lucdity are very much like unto Gorean submission to enslavement
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Equivocation. Stop it. Say one thing.
Are these people "serving" against their "Will" or aren't they?
Slaves are forced to serve against their will, and you have repeatedly been a proponent of slavery.
Servants serve in accordance with their will, and may cease their serving whenever they wish.
You want to have both together. You want to enslave others (emphasis on "slave") on the basis of their relative weakness and then* justify* it by the rationale that they will be happier that way - as "servants" following their True Will...?!?!? More than that! You continually assert that to prevent them from being enslaved is bad for them as humans.
This is nothing more than a narcissistic dream, a sadomasochistic jerk-fantasy with absolutely NO basis in reality. Froclown, it's getting to the point where I have to ask... do you have Narcissistic Personality Disorder?
If people are that enlightened as to their True Will, why would there be any need to enslave them? Why any need for rulers or even leaders at all? All would be a collaboration.
However, if you are suggesting that these people should be enslaved
simply because one has the ability to enslave them, then just stop making any arguments regarding their True Will. Such an "enslaver" has no concern for a person's True Will. The idea is laughable. -
You are confusing what someone might want, with what their WILL is.
I do not propose that everyone can become enlightened as to their true WILL, that is the problem. Only a few reach the highest attainments, and everyone of a lower grade is reliant on he higher grades to relay the light down from the higher plane.Look at a child, they do not want of wear clothes, they do not want to sit still, they do not want to be quite in the store, they do not want to learn to read, they do not want to do math lesson. However, the parents, if they are good parents with a combination of reward and rod, force the child to it's lessons. The child once tamed and taught civilized, orderly, rational behavior, and the norms and laws of its community, is better off, and is thankful to the parents for not letting it just run wild, only to grow up unable to hold down a job or get along with people. (Yes such training should be also an extension of the child's true nature, don't force a child with bow legs of rickets to run track or race bikes).
Now Some of these children will learn self-discipline and will obey laws because they see it is in their best interest to obey the law, and realize their higher purpose is served by not conflicted too much with the world. But the Vast majority, even in the new aeon, will obey only out of a combination of instilled fear of punishment and a sense that one has a duty to uphold law, just for the sake that it is THE LAW passed down from on high. The first class follow the intent of the law, and even deviate when a situation happens that the law does not apply properly. the second class Obey the letter of the law no matter what, but the more fear driven that duty driven, the more likely they are to break the law only to get away with it.
Actual slaves are rare, but we call them now criminals. Those who have no respect for the laws and customs of the community at all. Who have no respect for its leaders and no sense of self-driven purpose that is in harmony with those around them. We lock these up today, rather than force them to labor for us, probably due in part to the high level of unemployment. However Heracles for example was sentenced to slavery as punishment for murder, to repay the family he had wronged. this as common in the Greek and roman civilization. Also what about prisoners of war and captured terrorists, why lock them up at gitmo, why not make them serve the American economy, put them to work as slaves, they are probably getting death sentences anyway, why not get some repayment in the form of labor out of them, if they are worked to death, so what we were going to kill them anyway. It is only situations like this that I advocate true slavery. Of course anyone who wants to be a beggar and slave worker rather than self supporting is free to do so as well, clean up the streets of beggars and homeless, by putting them to work paid with food and shelter. Clean them up off drugs and alcoholism, bath them, and keep their health up to par. This will prevent violent crimes in the streets, reduce disease, and give the homeless a positive task to perform, rather than harassing people and living in dumpsters.
Rather mostly I advocate a social-economic system of niches, with a chain of command. Where the true WILL can express itself in it's natural sphere of influence. A fish has one place where it fits to be a fish, leave the water is not is WILL, move too deep is not its WILL, more to a place too warm or too cold is not its WILL. Each animal has a place whee it fits. Each human has a place in the society where it fits, where it belongs, a niche or caste, I only propose that we discern scientifically via the methods of Thelema what sort of niches are common and build a social order that creates a place and purpose in a higher collective good, for each niche.
I suppose you oppose the notion of regulation the temperature, saltiness, and depth of a fish tank to fit the sort of fish that will live in it.
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@Froclown said
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Actual slaves are rare, but we call them now criminals. Those who have no respect for the laws and customs of the community at all. Who have no respect for its leaders and no sense of self-driven purpose that is in harmony with those around them. We lock these up today, rather than force them to labor for us, probably due in part to the high level of unemployment."
and elsewhere
@Froclown said
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and those who still possess a degree of manliness become thieves, gangsters, and profiteers over selling sublimative drugs, betting games, prostitution, to the masses who prefer to PAY for easy access to vices, rather than Earn them in battlee"Need this continue??
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There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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For one their is a difference between running a gang of thieves and being a beggar. Not that either are socially desired.
It is well within the LAW "Do what thou wilt" to be a beggar or a thief, etc. That is not the issue, the issue is how we promote a social system where people can do their WILL and everyone has a place like gears in a clock, or stars in the galaxy.
The WILL of the heart in not like the WILL of the brain nor the WILL of the Liver, but if the heart does not abide by the signals sent by the brain, instead beating at its own pace (I am the heart equal to the brain I need not obey any orders) the blood will flaw erratically, the liver will not be able to filter properly, the blood will carry poison to the brain and the whole body will die.
If the so called lowly cobbler does not build the kings shoes well, the king may stumble on a broken heel and lose the respect of his soldiers, who in turn ignore his battle plan, lose the war, and the whole kingdom is burned to the ground.
Likewise in the body the most vestigial and superfluous organ, the appendix may rupture and poison the whole body, if it is not able to do its WILL, no matter how insignificant than function may seem. The lowest slave fulfilling his function is as vital to the whole as the highest nobleman. Thus to do ones WILL, does not mean everyone is the brain, it means if you happen to be the appendix, be proud of it, be the best damn appendix you can be, for that is your nature and purpose, to do other than this can lead to catastrophe, the knowledge that you hold this power to cause and prevent catastrophe shall be your sense of power and pride. The healthy individual will seek to do ones WILL no matter what it is.
That is to say "Their are no small roles only small people",
Roles are not equal, the body can live if the appendix is removed, but remove the heart or brain and all the rest perish as well.
The rise of thieves I spake of before was because without a king, without a community ideal to serve, these people turn their force into turning profits, to pure immediate material gains. Organs without a body, all claiming that each it its own whole body, and does not need the others, does not need to be part of something, because each is its own whole everything.
Every man is a king, in the reach of his sword arm, the swords of others will mark his limits. Thus are treaties drawn, and communities formed. But not all men are warriors, some can bearly lift a sword, but are quick with the pen, writing verse. Each here is king within the influence of his pen, and can dip his quill in venom to take down a foe, thus creating limits, between scribes.
The doctor is a master of potions and healing arts, but also has the knowledge of what kills the body, thus the doctor finds a sphere of action and sets up his limits. A builder creates buildings in which to live and walls, doors, locks, to set limits.Their are different castes and they have Earned their place in a particular community by way of imposing and removing limits, on each other. Respect for these limits are taught via local rules of manors, norms, titles of respect, etc.
Those who have been limited and have no power to push back the limits are given little or no respect (as it should be). This is the Law of the strong.
Thelema is not about what political limits are put over someone, it is about spiritual limits, super-ego stuff. That is if you are a slave, you are a slave still, but you can do anything you can get away with and feel no guilt, as no GOD will punish you, The law may imprison you, a jealous lover may kill you in a rage, and all than is Lawful under thelema.
All Do what thou wilt, really means is their is no spiritual punishment, no heaven no hell, no God or any other moral principle to obey. Instead we must look to earthly conditions to set our limits. To our biology, and the might of others.
Here is a Christian version of Liber AL.
I GOD have given up on you, mortal men, I am ashamed of you and I offer you no more guidance, you do whatever you want, I have Forsaken you! Now go bugger off.
To which we can either sulk and lament, or we can shout FREE at last, Free at a last, on live by our own principles, not God's standards.
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Yeah, now, see... Something like that seems much more debatable.
I still think monarchy is a dead end for the reasons of sustainability I mentioned. I'm just much more pessimistic about how easy it is to create initiates. I think it requires more than just the science of it. There's a rare personal quality that's necessary. Some people talk about it in terms of karma. I don't pretend to understand it. It's just very rare.
All the ranting against Equality and democracy on principle seems pointless though. It's a distraction from any good points you have.
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what I meant before about using up slaves, is the for example the body does not live for the heart or any other organ, but for the whole body, the heart beats and its beating is USED up by the body for an end that transcends just the heart itself. The WILL of the heart is to beat for beating sake, because that is what hearts do, and part of being the heart and doing good beating is to obey the impulse from the central nervous system. The heart does not mind that it is being used up, that each beat brings it closer to death, because in beating it is part of a higher order, which supports on only itself, but the other organs, and in fact little does the heart know but by beating in one mans chest, it allows this man to provide life necessity for a child and thus one heart beat preserves the beating of another.
The liver the same as the heart has its transcendent role, but its purpose is not the hearts purpose. The purpose of some cells in the body are that when killed by a bacteria they dead cell produces a chemical signal than helps Identify the invader. Much as in Islam we find even young boys who attain a transcendent meaning in suicide, even if their personal life is short, and they die in a gristly way. It is the WILL of some stars to burn out fast.
What Thelema teaches is to feel no fear or guilt, about being who you are and whatever happens to you pleasure or pain in the local life, is irrelevant as the whole is beyond the inter-play of the parts. If you are performing your natural function, even suffering is joy.
The king is vital as both a political and a "spiritual" leader, one who by example as much as lesson, leads the people in rituals that help remind than they are each part of something bigger, and each has a proper place in the larger world, what that place is, and how to sense it. As well as the links between the individuals in the community. Links to the communities history, to the natural world, to each other, and to the social order. The social order which is guided by the King, who is the Lord of the community, who is one with the solar force. Whom the people orbit, and draw strength from.
Is this not what the Gnostic mass is meant to achieve?
Is not first the common man made into a Priest (King)
"I am but a man among men, how shall I be made worthy to administer the virtues to the brethren"
Perhaps the consecration by the Priestess can be studies along with the deliverance of Excalibur to Author by the lady of the lake. As a means to understand how a king is "made".Also realize that never in the whole of humanity mentioned as recipients of the virtues, but rather the brethren who are present at the mass. It would be a rare king indeed who could be worthy to administer virtues suited to all men everywhere. Rather let each group of brethren conceive its own King, and certainly the Mass is catholic, but one can devise local versions on the same theme, more suited to the group. With its own saints and memorable deeds.
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Here is an articles from the Treasure-house of pearls site.
www.thelema.nu/archives/13#more-13
Any time an administration is run by someone without transcendent knowledge of some kind, but instead is just a product of the herd (the masses as Ortega y Gasset calls them) you will see this kind of government. In all cases, the best that could be hoped for is mediocrity. Rarely though do they even reach that height. Look around; what do you see?
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That's a good blog article. I'm pretty sure I agree with every bit of it.
What still amazes me is that you would refer to articles like that (or, indeed, any concept of Kingship in Thelema) in support of your idea that your government would be more effectively ruled by someone other than yourself (monarchy opposed to democracy).
You are very vocal about giving up your own voice in the matter. Why? Is it because you have such a low opinion of "the masses" that you would rather give up your own voice and authority? To do so is to place your fate directly in the hands of circumstance and Because. You would be forfeiting your "ability to make change occur in conformity with Will" in your own government.
To me, it always seems like you are abdicating what "throne" you currently have (one out of many that it is) in favor of no throne at all.
I would argue that forcing "the masses" to realize that we all bear the consequences of our decisions and individual level of enlightenment together is the most effective and efficient tool for the evolution of humanity. Putting that responsibility solely on someone else simply ensures its continued ignorance and lack of global consciousness or responsibility.
Democracy is the school of hard knocks on a global level, and everybody has to play, for better or worse, or remain the slave of Because.
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Not at all.
I work on the assumption that I would by my own merits rise to a position or appointment by the king with personal authority over not the whole nation or the whole community, but over a smaller sphere of action, which is appropriate to my nature and ability. I never said the King would have autocratic and omni-potent power over everything.
For example one can believe their should be a governor of the State, but still only want to be mayor, or even only want to be a police officer oneself. Just because their is a Mayor who is chief of all the police, it does not mean that the individual officer does not have freedom to act when out on his patrol. Nor does the fact that the Governor exist, mean that the mayors of townships have room to act.
Tho sphere of ones action being as much a social as economic concern, a mans character determining allot about what sort of social-economic caste he is suited for. A Timid man is not suited for the military nor is an impatient man suited for accounting, the proper role (Orbit of each star) can be calculated, rather than left up to chance.
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This is very Old Aeon stuff. Utterly Osirian.
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Hi Froclown,
Did you vote in the last election? Not clear about the monarchy vs republic thing.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
The last election I wrote in Ron Paul actually, as he addressed the issue of the Federal Reserve Bank and monetary policy.
I have not against a republic, and most of the time a well working Monarchy would be a republic, the King who does his job well, never has to actually do anything.
A republic would have delegates of each caste or faction within the society, and these would negotiation the best use of the collective resources, as in how much of each type of resource would be divided up to the few general factions. These are free to use those resources as they feel in best. If the negotiations do not run smooth, or become unproductive, this is when the King would step in to arbitrate, and to dismiss or re-appoint members who are causing the problem.
When all is working well, their is little political noise created, the castes divide the wealth justly, the caste members get along and mutually support each other, Ever person no matter what his or her faculty works towards the one collective Ideal, the transcendent Goal, the WILL of the community.
The King then is like the HGA of the community, the human representation of the Transcendent values and goals of the people, that brings order when the individual Ego games start to interfere with the Transcendent values.
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www.billheidrick.com/tlc1996/tlc1296.htm
scroll down to "Crowley Classics"
"Men are fit to hunt, fish, and create; women to cook, to labor in the fields, and to bear children. Abandon this conception with all its obvious demerits, and you merely arrive at a Bottomless Pit of vague argument, ending in the query "What is a man? What is a woman?" A very nauseating mess!""The hierarchical and caste system is the system with biological truth to back it, and it always comes back as soon as the organism is in danger. This war will make an end of the "brilliant," "intellectual" nonsense of the George Bernard Shaws and the Leon Trotzkys; aristocracy will be re-established in a more enlightened form. Birth is not everything; we need brains as well. But we must put an end to the power of money, which is the corruption of all Virtue,"
Now this was written by Crowley, but could have come right out of Evola's Revoult against the modern world.
If this is old Aeon, then you accuse Crowley of Old aeon thought, and when you start trying to say Crowley the man vs the Prophet or Revealed vs mundane books, or whatever, all you are doing is spinning deceptions to make Thelema meet your liberal ideals, that are indoctrinated in us all from birth and extra impressed in University.
The Old aeon in not feudalism, the old aeon in Christian equality and modernist denial of the all values in favor of pure materialism.
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@Froclown said
"... when you start trying to say Crowley the man vs the Prophet or Revealed vs mundane books, or whatever, all you are doing is spinning deceptions to make Thelema meet your liberal ideals, that are indoctrinated in us all from birth and extra impressed in University. "
Am I mistaken, or wasn't it Crowley himself who instituted a classification system for his writings to prevent precisely this kind of thinking?
The document you quote bears no classification, but according to the system he instituted, it looks to be Class E, "manifestoes, broadsides, epistles, and other public statements."
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Yes, Class E at best.
This particular piece appears to have been from an article from The International. Much of what Crowley wrote for that magazine was intentionally deceptive propaganda written for the expressed purpose of making German sympathizers look bad during WW I.
He did actually believe much that he wrote for The International; but not all of it.
In any case, every word out of Crowley's mouth shouldn't be taken as prophetic. His distinctly prophetic writings are quite distinct from even his enlightened opinion - how much more distinct from his casual human opinion.
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Whenever there is a choice between a naturalistic and supernatural explanation, the supernatural must always be rejected or taken as a metaphor for an unknown natural explanation.
If we speak of GOD, we must take it as a metaphor for human psychological effects, when we speak of Prophecy we must take it to mean a gleaning of subtle cues and events inherently explainable in terms of the individual's psychology, which is to say his nervous system.
As far as intentional disinformation, that may be true in the international, though I don't see how this passage outs German sympathies. Any way here is a quote from his own tunisia diary, I suppose one does not fill the pages of ones own diary with lies and propaganda.
diary entry of May 29, 1923: "I'm certainly not an anarchist, for the family is the smallest and vilest unit of government: nor a Socialist, for the State is the largest and so the least human unit. I suppose then, that - with Ethyl as without - I want a Patriarchal-Feudal system run by initiated Kings."
To separate Crowley into man and prophet is the same as to say the same Nietzsche did not write twilight of Idols that wrote Zarathustra, certainly the texts are different and the later work was a more refined expression of his ideals, but the Prophetic or received Zarathustra was just as much a product of the same man's voice, his same nervous system, acquired opinions and ideals. The same is very much true for Crowley, no matter how enlightened or illuminated, no matter how intense the seeming supernatural and the different egos or selfs within self, the angles and GOD's one thinks one meets, all in all its just the brain of one man.