TzMTzVM & GBVRH
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I have been studying Isaac Luria's theories on creation & I have a question concerning his concept of TzMTzVM.
When Luria says that DIN had to exist within AIN SVPh before KThR could arise, is he implying that GBVRH was the first SPhIRH created?
He seems to suggest that before the Will to create could even arise, a faculty of DIN or discrimination had to first be employed in order to hollow out a vessel for that Will (KThR).
729
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FWIW I don't think Tzimtzum per se, or the Lurianic writings in general, have any presence anywhere in Aleister Crowley's writings.
It does give one way of thinking about the relationship of Nuit and Hadit, though personally I think it's just giving a bunch more intellectual crap to put in the way of simple concepts. But, if you want to do this, then the way to ask the question might be something like, "In Nuit's extrusion of [a particular?] Hadit, why does Justice have to [seemingly] pre-exist?"
(I was about to hit Submit, and the idea flashed across my mind that severity is the function of severing, separating, distinguishing - model birthing process and other analogies - but that was just a random thought, recorded here only because of its coincidence with my reaching for the mouse to click Submit.)
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@Jim Eshelman said
"It does give one way of thinking about the relationship of Nuit and Hadit, though personally I think it's just giving a bunch more intellectual crap to put in the way of simple concepts."
I can't argue with you there ...the majority of what I have read thus far is abound with speculation, albeit technical & well thought out.
@Jim Eshelman said
"the way to ask the question might be something like, "In Nuit's extrusion of [a particular?] Hadit, why does Justice have to [seemingly] pre-exist?""
Are you using Justice in the context of Judgement or Adjustment?
@Jim Eshelman said
"severity is the function of severing, separating, distinguishing - model birthing process and other analogies"
It seems to me as though he's sacrificing Omnipresence for Omnipotence.
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If DIN did somehow precede Will, then that would go a long way in explaining the pre existing imperfections that caused the shattering of the vessels which resulted in the creation of the QLIPVTh - Judgement preceded Will.
"If Will stops and cries Why, invoking Because, then Will stops & does nought." - CCXX, II:30
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@Arsihsis said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"the way to ask the question might be something like, "In Nuit's extrusion of [a particular?] Hadit, why does Justice have to [seemingly] pre-exist?""Are you using Justice in the context of Judgement or Adjustment?"
Primarily, I'm just translating DYN. But yes, it does invite interpretations (on a different scale) comparable to those Crowley evolved for Lamed, eh?
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@Jim Eshelman said
"severity is the function of severing, separating, distinguishing - model birthing process and other analogies"It seems to me as though he's sacrificing Omnipresence for Omnipotence."
He? Who's this "he?"
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@Jim Eshelman said
"He? Who's this "he?""
Luria ...he's sacrificing Omnipresence for Omnipotence in his theory of TzMTzVM.
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Topics in this thread remind me of the comprehensive and concise work of Thomas Karlsson in Qabalah, Qliphoth, and Goetic Magic. Here are a few quotes related to the origin and function of Gevurah and other points.
Gershom Scholem writes on Sitrah Ahra:
"The Other Side is the fire of divine severity, externalized and made independent, where it becomes an entire hierarchical system, a counter-world ruled by Satan."
Rachel Elliot comments on Galya Raza:
"The ontological status of evil in the world, both in the celestial and terrestrial aspects, may be compared to the status of the first born, preferred for its essential priority. Evil precedes good just as darkness precedes light and absence precedes existence."
Kings of Edom precede Kings of Israel, Cain before Abel, etc.
"The general origin of existences, then, was within darkness, in the Sitra Ahra, which ruled alone before Creation."
Quoting from Bahir
"Tohu and Bohu that appear in Genesis 1:2 ae explored: ' and the earth was wihout form, and void'. Tohu is desolate, but can also mean chaos, and Bohu is the word for empty, but can also mean desolateness. The Tohu preceeds the Bohu and corresponds to the first vessel in Creation that broke and gave rise to the kingdom of evil. Bohu is the second creation.
"Karlsson goes on to say:
"The Qabalists identify the Sitra Ahra with Gehenna. Sitra Ahra is a kingdom that arose from God's wrathful and punishing side, Geburah. The Fall of Man, or some other original catastrophe, enabled this side to become a seperate world of its own."
Aurthur Green explains:
"Sitra Ahra was allowed by God to exist, but is given no share in divine power. As it was cut off from the sefirotic world, it lost access that flows from Eyn Sof, the vital force that allows existence. It therefore exists only as dead matter, and would have no power at all were not man to arouse it by his evil deeds. Thoughts and acts of sin give strength to the forces of evil, just as we shall see that good thoughts and deeds energize the world of the Sefirot."
On the Black Light:
"In the dialectics of creation, it therefore became a positively hostile and destructive power. What is called the power of evil, the kelippah, is in the last resort rooted in this noncreative light in God himself. The duality of form and matter takes on a new aspect. Both are grounded in Ein-Sof. The thoughtless light is not evil in itself, but takes on this aspect because it is opposed to the existence of anything but Ein-Sof and therefore is set on destroying the structures produced by the thoughtful light.
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In fact the thoghtless lights, too, build structures of their own-the demonic worlds of the kelippot whose sole intent is to destroy what the thoughtful light has wrought. These forces are called 'the serpents dwelling in the great Abyss.' The Satanic powers, called in the Zohar the Sitra Ahra (Other Side), are none other than the other side of Eif-Sof itself insofar as, by its very resistance, it became involved in the process of creation itself."
Just a few tidbits I hope are useful to the topic. This is a great book BTW if you can get it, lots of insight into Qabalah from the 'other side'.
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Some of those quotes need to be taken with a grain of perspective.
Kabbalists have suggested there were other worlds created and destroyed prior to ours. So when speaking about the shattering of the vessels, Fall of Man, is the primordial catastrophe in relation to the founding of our present world? Or prior worlds? Of all creation? Did the Sitra Achra form in reaction to the primordial catastrophe of our world or the destruction of a previous world? Given the age of the universe it would be hard to believe countless worlds have not been created and destroyed prior to ours.
In geology there is a concept called "deep time". Look far enough back into the evolutionary past on this planet and one eventually stares in an abyss. There is a useful limit to these questions: much in the same way I don't dwell too much on prior incarnations but limit myself to the task of the present one, I don't see the point in thinking too much about prior worlds but limit myself to understanding the present.
Regarding Rabbi Luria's tzim-tzum, I think judgement is inherent within the concept of creation. There are Kabbalistic tales of worlds prior to ours that started to emanate into existence, but the Divine regretted what it saw and withdrew the emanation. The concept of destruction is also latent and inherent within the act of creation - cf. Shiva. This is not some theoretical concept but a fact of physics.
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Many interesting points, the atlas itch. At the risk of thread drift, I will make some comments, but I try to keep it short and then go off thread, as I cannot comment on any Lurian aspects posed by Arsihsis' initial post. The primary observation was that DIN (as a force, not a Sefirot) may have existed prior to KThR for this world, as its aspects necessarily precedes all worlds, but not as a Sefirot. However the force becomes embodied as a Sefirot, it was not the first Sefirot created - but maybe the first Sefirot of creation? I read a nice piece as to why separation could not occur until Gevurah, I think by Levi, but I cannot find it ATM. Basically there were other thoughtforms and consciousness needed in the supernals and Gedulah for the inversion but prior to separation.
"Kabbalists have suggested there were other worlds created and destroyed prior to ours. So when speaking about the shattering of the vessels, Fall of Man, is the primordial catastrophe in relation to the founding of our present world? Or prior worlds? Of all creation? Did the Sitra Achra form in reaction to the primordial catastrophe of our world or the destruction of a previous world? "
From what I can tell, the 3 kingdoms of Edom preceded our current circumstance, however I sense there are echoes of those worlds rippling through the I Ching fractal timeline emergence. It is amusing that each time the demiurge tried to limit the limitless, the horror and profanity of his creation grew more abominable. But still it tried again, and here we are. The fall, the shells, etc, I think are related to this instance, and the initial point of emergence of Hadit, when the light was inverted in the Sitra Ahra to create our causal quantum fishbowl and filled it with the homogeneous metallic water. Given the only way the hologram could be created, I suspect this is a self-similiar expansion/echo/spiral of those earlier worlds, and part of the fall, besides materializing the spirit, was that control of the worlds and their expansion was lost. This could also have happened with the kingdoms of Edom, due to self-similiar echoes. Adam man of clay was to be KTHR-Yod-Tetragrammaton-nexion-union of causal/acausal Hadit/Nuit and reflect the light off the magentic water to help manifest creation, for the chance of love. However it is possible that only the bloodline of Cain actually has any spark.
"Given the age of the universe it would be hard to believe countless worlds have not been created and destroyed prior to ours. "
Agreed, given eternity, this is likely. Moreso I think on the Qabalistic model than the multiverse models. The information coming in the light only tells us about those worlds, for the moment.
"Deep Time"
Interesting, this is new to me, worth research.
"the concept of destruction is also latent "
I don't think destruction is latent at all. Working with destructive forces yields more powerful creative results than anything else. I.A.O.
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I think one of the greatest dangers with the QBL is the tendency to take the symbolism too far.
One must understand that it is all just symbols and one must understand what the symbols represent to avoid flights of intellectual futility.