Thelema and Biblical Prophecy
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"Revelations was truth not fully understood, incorporationg ideas for which humanity would have to evolve thousands of years longer to place in social and individual context. And then, yes, the politicians got hold of it and edited it here and there ignorantly."
I've always thought Revelations was for kindergarden Xtians but Isopsephia suggests there is some very deep truth in the original text. Any reading recommendations that extract the essential elements?
"In short, he came to fulfill the old law by destroying it."
This is my confusion, all the Christ imagery applied to the Beast.
"One distinctive difference, though: To concentrate on something called "the solar Christ" is to align your consciousness specifically with the entire consciousness of Christianity - to (more literally than figuratively) place yourself in the presence of all those who have worshipped such a thing for thousands of years. The same is true for the Beast - except that the distinctive ideas of this form of the archetype only has about a century of history."
Understood, but why change the title to it's antithesis while keeping the same essential function?
"Anything is possible. (And, for that matter, Horus and Christ are the same idea, except that one is Christian and the other isn't. Especially, infant Horus and infant Christ are substantially the same idea. In that sense, it doesn't matter what was meant.)"
Well I meant Hoor-paar-kraat specifically, if he = Christ how can 'The Beast' be his prophet?
"Duality gets a bad rap."
I'm sure I won't mind it so much when I've transcended it for once.
" You have to understand that "throne" is nearly always, in these visions, a specific symbol of the World of Briah."
Thank you, very useful information.
I don't know if Thelema is a paradox, it just seems that way to me currently.
I do know that I must approach Thelema with more than my reasoning. -
@Jim Eshelman said
"It's harder to get horny for Zion!"
Point taken.
"Well, one reason is that a particular purpose is to do away with Jesus! - But (gosh, so many angles from which to answer) there is also the fact that the egregore had becomde so fixated on a "goodness" that is hypocritical and inauthentic, so a little bit of antithesis-slapping was used to shake that up."
That's what I figured but isn't that throwing the baby out with the baph water?
I can see how 'Jesus' is the anti-christ, but Pentagrammaton = Joshua / Ιησουϛ = 888 seems like proof of a perpetual principle.
When I discovered GD magic 11 years ago I thought it was the 'true' and 'secret' gospel that validates the sofa-king sacrifice myths.
3 years ago I started reading Crowley, I'm just now starting to hear the message of Thelema. I feel 'high' and see streaking astral lights when I read it.It seems there is a time for control and a time for surrender and magick is knowing when to do which. (2212221)
"The outer order stars are inverted? Huh? I'm not at all sure what you mean."
Much about Thelema seems inverted, all printed stars seem to point down. Someone told me this was just an 'outer-order' thing.
"The new Word in 1904 was a repudiation of what went before. It wasn't a dismissal of everything - the Prophet was charged with picking and choosing, with salvaging usable building materials from the old desecration. But the essential premise, and the way the puzzle pieces were put together, was changed."
What do you think about revisionists like Don Tyson?
I suspect that the way things are arranged changes as one advances.
If not, are Thelemites encouraged to design their own system at some point?I can grok how Bull became Ram became Fish will become Flood.
Or how Symbiosis became Sacrifice became Will will become Justice.
But 'The Beast' fulfilling the function of 'The Logos' is like a Zen koan or something.I understand the importance of the new system but doesn't shrouding it in the older system's antithesis make it all the more difficult to accept for most?
I gather that all symbols are relative and I'll learn as I work, I'm just trying to get my bearings.
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@Middleman said
"I've always thought Revelations was for kindergarden Xtians but Isopsephia suggests there is some very deep truth in the original text. Any reading recommendations that extract the essential elements?"
I'm an "Alpha & Omega" kind of guy - having thought since childhood that Genesis and Revelations were the two primary books worth reading in The Bible. It's anything but kindergarten! - It's the most mature and deepest initiate-level work in the canon.
A few years ago, I started a book going through this - and, though my overall notes are mostly in place, I got distracted from the main writing when about a fourth of the way through. I hope to finish it one of these days. It's basically a work of kundalini yoga as a tool for transformation and awakening of higher consciousness, going far past any of the classic Eastern works (but relying on them).
For example, the "7 churches of Asia" are 7 "centers of worship" in Assiah, specifically the locations of the chakras in the human body. Each "church" is addressed first in a way that declares its essential nature, then in a way that says how it's screwed up, then with advise for correction - and this is a preliminary purification and balancing of the chakras. The subsequent open of the "scroll of 7 seals" is the opening and energizing of those chakras with consequent results. This cycles through several times (with intervening text describing known yogic consequences) until the climax where the phenomena of superconsciousness prevail.
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"In short, he came to fulfill the old law by destroying it."This is my confusion, all the Christ imagery applied to the Beast."
It wouldn't be confusing if you didn't start from the idea that they weren't somewhat the same.
Additionally, you might want to stop thinking of it as "Christ" and substitute "that deeper thing of which Christ is one of many representations." Would you be puzzled if Krishna intervened? Probably not.
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"One distinctive difference, though: To concentrate on something called "the solar Christ" is to align your consciousness specifically with the entire consciousness of Christianity - to (more literally than figuratively) place yourself in the presence of all those who have worshipped such a thing for thousands of years. The same is true for the Beast - except that the distinctive ideas of this form of the archetype only has about a century of history."Understood, but why change the title to it's antithesis while keeping the same essential function?"
Is it the antithesis? Who says so? Specifically: Who before or during the writing of Revelations says so. (I won't count people after that time who put their own distorted interpretations on it.)
But... also... the antithesis is part of what's needed because what's needed is to tear all the old wall paper, not remind people of it.
"Well I meant Hoor-paar-kraat specifically, if he = Christ how can 'The Beast' be his prophet?"
Why not? What assumption are you putting here that says it can't be.
Also: I'm not saying Horus IS Christ. I'm saying they represent the same idea.
"I do know that I must approach Thelema with more than my reasoning."
Yes!
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@Jim Eshelman said
"For example, the "7 churches of Asia" are 7 "centers of worship" in Assiah, specifically the locations of the chakras in the human body. Each "church" is addressed first in a way that declares its essential nature, then in a way that says how it's screwed up, then with advise for correction - and this is a preliminary purification and balancing of the chakras. The subsequent open of the "scroll of 7 seals" is the opening and energizing of those chakras with consequent results. This cycles through several times (with intervening text describing known yogic consequences) until the climax where the phenomena of superconsciousness prevail."
Fascinating. I've heard each chapter matches the 22 Trumps. Please do complete it, if it is your will, you could package it for the new-age Christers and make a killing.
"Additionally, you might want to stop thinking of it as "Christ" and substitute "that deeper thing of which Christ is one of many representations." Would you be puzzled if Krishna intervened? Probably not. "
I do think of it as 'that deeper thing' and I wouldn't be puzzled if it was Enki, Horus-anything, Krishna, Mithrai, Dionysys, Apollo or anyone else that was remotely related to the Tiphareth/Chokmah function, not one of their enemies. '?'
"Is it the antithesis? Who says so? Specifically: Who before or during the writing of Revelations says so. (I won't count people after that time who put their own distorted interpretations on it.)
But... also... the antithesis is part of what's needed because what's needed is to tear all the old wall paper, not remind people of it."
Ummm I just read it again, yep, To Mega Therion is the bad guy, unleashes the pseudo-prophetos, tries to eat the Child-king, cast into the pit, yada yada.
I'm not saying there's any validity to it, I'm just trying to understand the principle of that name.
That's my rounded point, doesn't To Mega Therion reinforce the Christocalypse view?
"Why not? What assumption are you putting here that says it can't be."
No assumptions here Sir, I asked how, is this about generating cognitive dissonance? It's working.
"Also: I'm not saying Horus IS Christ. I'm saying they represent the same idea."
Of course, I try to not to use = or is but I forget.
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@Middleman said
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"Well, one reason is that a particular purpose is to do away with Jesus! - But (gosh, so many angles from which to answer) there is also the fact that the egregore had becomde so fixated on a "goodness" that is hypocritical and inauthentic, so a little bit of antithesis-slapping was used to shake that up."That's what I figured but isn't that throwing the baby out with the baph water?"
Any identification with that archetype / idea / image is an alignment in consciousness with the hypocrisy, distortion, abuse, bloodshed, suppression, and other negatives have been executed under that name. It's like wanting to use a perfectly good water pipe which, however, has has the worst kind of filth flowing through it along with sweet water, and nobody taking the time to clean it regularly. Eventually, no matter how much you admire the original pipe, you just can't use it: You can't use the water that flows through it without sucking filth and slime and parasites and disease into your gut. You just have to tear it out and use something else.
"I can see how 'Jesus' is the anti-christ, but Pentagrammaton = Joshua / Ιησουϛ = 888 seems like proof of a perpetual principle."
Yes, those are good symbols, including some I use. But you can't hang them out to attract primary attention. (Horus does internalize both the 5 and 8 symbolism, inherently and through passages of Liber L., so many of these number concepts carry forward.
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"The outer order stars are inverted? Huh? I'm not at all sure what you mean."Much about Thelema seems inverted, all printed stars seem to point down. Someone told me this was just an 'outer-order' thing."
The hexagram is the same. The pentagram, except in one particular ritual, is the same. Both have a single point upward. The heptagram, though, does have two points up as we most often use it (and this, btw, is the seal of the Inmost Order, not an Outer Order symbol per se).
In an odd-number regular figure, one point upward makes it a masculine figure. Two points upward makes it a feminine figure. (Yes, this is old-school simple crudeness: The guy has one thing sticking up, the gal has both her legs in the air.) So the heptagram with two points upward is distinctly the symbol of the feminine. (Compare the insignia of the Order of the Eastern Star - a women's masonic auxiliary - where the pentagram has two points upward. This is not for some devilish or demonic purpose.)
"What do you think about revisionists like Don Tyson?"
As little as possible.
"I can grok how Bull became Ram became Fish will become Flood.
Or how Symbiosis became Sacrifice became Will will become Justice.
But 'The Beast' fulfilling the function of 'The Logos' is like a Zen koan or something."The Beast IS the Logos. If it is koan-like, it's because you're starting with an idea of one or the other of these that is in error. I should ask, therefore: What is it that you think The Beast is that makes Him significantly unlike the Logos?
"I understand the importance of the new system but doesn't shrouding it in the older system's antithesis make it all the more difficult to accept for most?"
Sure, difficult - but so is Microsoft Office 2007 more difficult than Office 2003 for those who are used to using the old system and thinking in terms of how the old system worked. 2007 is inherently a better system but, if you're not going to start with it (having never used Office before), then you're going to find it more splendid and easy than if you have to unlearn much of what you knew and used before.
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@Middleman said
"I've heard each chapter matches the 22 Trumps."
That is SO tempting a thought... and one can make it seem to work for a while... but it does break down in the middle. I think it is, at best, a rough pointer, but not one on which you can rely.
"Please do complete it, if it is your will, you could package it for the new-age Christers and make a killing."
That's partly the plan
No, I do hope to be able to finish it. Thanks for the interest and encouragement."
"Is it the antithesis? Who says so? Specifically: Who before or during the writing of Revelations says so. (I won't count people after that time who put their own distorted interpretations on it.)"Ummm I just read it again, yep, To Mega Therion is the bad guy. Deceives everyone, tries TO EAT the Child-king, cast into the pit, yada yada."
Doesn't seem much worse than what the supposed good guys are doing in the same book! - especially if you take them literally.
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I don't take anything literally or personally, I'm trying to get at the common principle.
"I can see how 'Jesus' is the anti-christ, but Pentagrammaton = Joshua / Ιησουϛ = 888 seems like proof of a perpetual principle."
"Yes, those are good symbols, including some I use. But you can't hang them out to attract primary attention."
Do you mean I shouldn't post that here? I've refrained from mentioning any fantastic discoveries but mentioned that because it's all over the interwebs, the Christers are really hijacking Gematria:
www.jesus8880.com/chapters/gematria/index.htm
Funny they used to burn folks alive for doing this.
"In an odd-number regular figure, one point upward makes it a masculine figure. Two points upward makes it a feminine figure. (Yes, this is old-school simple crudeness: The guy has one thing sticking up, the gal has both her legs in the air.)"
I figured it was something to do with Projective/Receptive. Thanks.
"What do you think about revisionists like Don Tyson?"
"As little as possible."
Why? Is his whole Mercury-centered system way off?
"The Beast IS the Logos. If it is koan-like, it's because you're starting with an idea of one or the other of these that is in error. I should ask, therefore: What is it that you think The Beast is that makes Him significantly unlike the Logos?"
I guess my confusion is trying to relate TMT666-the prophet with the TWO mega therions in revelation.
The second beast is given the power of the 'Megas Phone' but does the LOGOs speak lies?
Funny that the description of the second beast sounds very much like Paul and Pete's church:
11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
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@Middleman said
"Do you mean I shouldn't post that here?"
No, I only meant that if you are creating a spiritual movement now, you don't want to bring people's attention back to atavistic symbols.
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"What do you think about revisionists like Don Tyson?""As little as possible."
Why? Is his whole Mercury-centered system way off?"
In fairness, it's nothing more than that he bores me.
"I guess my confusion is trying to relate TMT666-the prophet with the TWO mega therions in revelation."
Are the Iraqi people pushing back against U.S. soldiers (1) insurgents affronting the heroic U.S. troops or (2) patriots defending their country and culture from foreign invaders?
Those who win (at the moment) write the history (at the moment) - including the newspaper accounts. Don't take all the fine points as literal or even accurate.
John just didn't understand what he was seeing IMHO. The Beast 666 of Revelations is essentially the emerging stage of human evolution with a fully developing Ruach consciousness, Osirian or Christic because fundamentally solar. Then, that was prophetic and futuristic. Today it's atavistic and tired.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"John just didn't understand what he was seeing IMHO. The Beast 666 of Revelations is essentially the emerging stage of human evolution with a fully developing Ruach consciousness, Osirian or Christic because fundamentally solar. Then, that was prophetic and futuristic. Today it's atavistic and tired."
This is helpful. I realize that mosbunotall myth is a coded description of a transformative process in one way or another.
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@Middleman said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"John just didn't understand what he was seeing IMHO. The Beast 666 of Revelations is essentially the emerging stage of human evolution with a fully developing Ruach consciousness, Osirian or Christic because fundamentally solar. Then, that was prophetic and futuristic. Today it's atavistic and tired."This is helpful. I realize that mosbunotall myth is a coded description of a transformative process in one way or another.
http://www.ashejournal.com/nanda/starset/horus_set_sm.jpg"
Really great discussion! I have a lot of the same questions.
MM, can you elaborate on this image?
Thanks.
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I was hoping somone here could tell me which stele that is.
Notice how they seem to be generating current to power what looks like a 'bulb' on a 'spine'?Is it the scale of Maat? Are those open and closed lotus or two different flowers?
I love the balance of the 'Horus and Set as Bros' myths.
http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/5684/594605-seth_horus_large.jpg
I was actually going to ask how Set is involved in Thelema but I found this:
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@Middleman said
"Notice how they seem to be generating current to power what looks like a 'bulb' on a 'spine'?"
It looks more to me like a drill. They take turns pulling on the rope and it spins the drill in the ground. Perhaps they are mining? Actually they might be making a hole in the ground to stick an obelisk or something in. Maybe they're planting a tree.
