Tarot Decks
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What exactly would be your question?
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- What do people who are familiar with the following three Tarot decks think of them?
The Hermetic Tarot
The Golden Dawn Tarot
The B.O.T.A. Tarot- As an afterthought, I'd also appreciate any tips about any sort of ceremonial magick groups/community in Virginia (especially in the eastern portion of the state).
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@Southern Magician said
"1) What do people who are familiar with the following three Tarot decks think of them?
The Hermetic Tarot"
Interesting, too busy.
"The Golden Dawn Tarot"
Badly executed. I've seen the original on which it is more or less based, and there were important symbolic distortions. I regard it as an interesting historic artifact that is good for study and understanding the evolution of certain symbols.
"The B.O.T.A. Tarot"
The very best meditation and divination deck among the classic style decks. Waite is nearly as good, but Case corrected some important errors in Waite.
You then left out the Thoth deck - which, at least, you should have thought people on a Thelemic forum would have some views about. It is flawlessly symbolically correct, and one of the most passionate and visually expressive decks there is. I regret that there are one or two cards I just don't like. (The Fool completely misses the mark, even though it is technically "correct" in every detail - it just misses some key elements. I couldn't meditate on the Trumps sequentially for 15-20 years because I couldn't get past The Fool; then realized I'd been silly, and started with The Universe to bypass the problem <g>. I'll worry about The Fool when I'm en route to Ipsissimus <g>.)
"2) As an afterthought, I'd also appreciate any tips about any sort of ceremonial magick groups/community in Virginia (especially in the eastern portion of the state)."
Sorry, closest I have to recommend is New York.
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The HErmetic Tarot is "ok" but not good for the beginner while Wang's Golden Dawn deck is not aesthetically appealing enough to ignite the imagination. Rider-Waite seems to be the easiest deck EVER to use and yes, the BOTA deck has a lot in common with it. The BOTA deck is in B&W though, so if that doesn't appeal to you it would be a drawback, similarly the Hermetic tarot. You could colour the BOTA or Hermetic deck, in fact the BOTA deck I had had the instructions on colouring the cards. As a better alternative I would suggest the Classic Golden Dawn tarot by Skip Dadsomethingorother. It is a beautiful B&W deck and is usually available at: www.dandspublishing.com/servlet/the-1/Classic-Golden-Dawn-Tarot/Detail but the store is currently down for work.
Jim, I think the reason he didn't mention the Thoth tarot is that DMK doesn't suggest actually using it because of the complexity of the symbolism and its Thelemic bent. Modern Magick is more of a traditional Golden Dawn approach though he references Crowley almost as often as Regardie but with credit. LOL.
You picked a good book to start with. Modern Magick is the most practical of the beginners guides as it expects you to work and gives you just enough information to not feel overwhelmed or so little as to feel underwhelmed like a lot of the course work of many of today's occult orders. I was admitted to one only to get the course work and feel flabbergasted at the fact that the first years worth of material I accomplished using Modern Magick! This book will get you to creating talismans, building your tools and working with the grimoires in a practical manner more easily & smoothly than any other.
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Yeah, Kraig's specific recommendation against the Thoth Deck unless you're used to it (he says it's an amazing deck but definitely not for beginners) was the only reason I didn't mention it, I wanted to stick to the ones he suggested for use with the study system in his book for newbies like myself - I can worry about picking from amongst everything available to me once I'm a little better informed.
The only worries I have at the moment are what Kraig points out as supposed blinds or right-out errors in the different decks. Personally, I really like the Rider-Waite (probably because a friend of mine in high school's mother gave readings with it) but Kraig claims Waite didn't correctly match up the symbolism in the deck to keep from breaking his Golden Dawn vows. He said the Golden Dawn deck by Wang was the best as far as everything "being right," so to speak, but said it still wasn't spot-on due to errors on Wang's part. Apparently Regardie's book on the Golden Dawn gives enough information to "fix" perceptions of these decks given proper study - once again according to Kraig. How much of all that is true?
Thanks for all the help, guys.
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There is (or was) an updated version of the Gold Dawn deck with the 'correct' symbolism by Tabitha Cicero. This is not an endorsement, just an FYI.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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"The B.O.T.A. Tarot"The very best meditation and divination deck among the classic style decks. Waite is nearly as good, but Case corrected some important errors in Waite."
The BOTA Tarot has the additional advantage of being sold as black & white cards, so that you can color them yourself. The attention on each individual element this requires incorporates the Tarot into your consciousness more readily, to good effect.
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There are a few other black and white decks available to day as well..
Another advantage of the Thoth deck is that it is one of the few decks that actually adhered to the traditional Golden Dawn color scales and coloring instructions...
Case, on the other hand, implemented his own version of color symbolism using flesh color, silver, gold, and the 12 "chromatic" semi-tones, i.e. red, red-orange, orange, orange-yellow, etc. (On the other hand, I guess since it is black and white, one could color it any way they wanted
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It seems that produced Tarot decks, if you will, are all "good for this, but..." Is it common in the world of ceremonial magick for people to draw their own decks from scratch based on written instructions (e.g., Regardie's book)?
Based on what I'm hearing here I think I'm going to go for the BOTA deck for now (though I think I'll skip coloring them myself - I'm not very good at coloring inside the lines, lol). Thanks for all the advice guys.
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Besides Thoth I prefer the Tarot de Marseille.
Very straight forward. Not very detailed like the Thoth.Also for persons that don´t agree with Crowleys reattributions of the paths and the tarot, it is great.
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@Southern Magician said
"It seems that produced Tarot decks, if you will, are all "good for this, but..." Is it common in the world of ceremonial magick for people to draw their own decks from scratch based on written instructions (e.g., Regardie's book)?
Based on what I'm hearing here I think I'm going to go for the BOTA deck for now (though I think I'll skip coloring them myself - I'm not very good at coloring inside the lines, lol). Thanks for all the advice guys.
"Another thing to note. The BOTA deck stands out for it's intended use in meditation. The paper they use is a heavy, unfinished cardstock - the best choice for coloring. So, if you're looking to do much more with them than color them and stare at them in meditation (which is this deck's main intent), you'll end up being a little dissatisfied. In other words, the paper they're made of doesn't stand up to lots of heavy shuffling and such.
As a deck for meditation, they are incredible! They're just not good for much else. And after saying all that, I'd have to say that they are still the deck I'd recommend.
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@Southern Magician said
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- As an afterthought, I'd also appreciate any tips about any sort of ceremonial magick groups/community in Virginia (especially in the eastern portion of the state)."
I live in Tidewater and know of no active Thelemic/Hermetic groups/community in this area. There is a shop, the Mystic Moon, which caters mostly to the Wiccan/Pagan community and they offer weekly classes on magic.
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Thought I'd chime in...
if you get the Thoth, be aware there are 2 chief sizes, I prefer the larger one for meditation and the smaller for any type of "divination." Also, the older ones didn't have this *imho *annoying white border, so if you see "new old stock" that might actually be preferable.
If you went with a Waite-style deck -you didn't want to color one yourself like BOTA- I would go with "universal waite" because it's nicely colored in.
Also, does anyone know Kraig's background? I've read his book. He seems very familiar with Crowley/OTO so I was curious.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I regret that there are one or two cards I just don't like. (The Fool completely misses the mark, even though it is technically "correct" in every detail - it just misses some key elements. I couldn't meditate on the Trumps sequentially for 15-20 years because I couldn't get past The Fool; then realized I'd been silly, and started with The Universe to bypass the problem <g>. I'll worry about The Fool when I'm en route to Ipsissimus <g>.)"
I’ve read about a few different methods of learning/using the Tarot for meditation where one starts with the Fool or Universe and works through all the trumps (or the whole deck) in a circuit type manner. Over time you’d build up mental images of each card and a specific sequence. This type of circuit approach to meditating on the Tarot appeals to me.
What kind of options does one have when working with a deck that has a card or two that misses the mark (such as the Fool in the Thoth)?
Would any of these options be feasible?
-Skipping the card in question –i.e. go from Magician to the Universe
- Swapping the card in question with one from a different deck (i.e. The Fool from the BOTA deck) or with one you created yourself that contained all the symbolism of the card but arranged in a manner so that the card doesn’t miss the mark.
-Using a shorter circuit that deals with the lower part of the tree.
Also, what kind of disadvantages/problems could arise from building up a pattern of images that contained a bad image or two? Thank you in advance.
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@skytoucher said
"What kind of options does one have when working with a deck that has a card or two that misses the mark (such as the Fool in the Thoth)?"
I'd recommend sticking with the deck all the way through anyway. There's an internal consistency that's important.
"Would any of these options be feasible?
-Skipping the card in question –i.e. go from Magician to the Universe"
No! The 22 as a set are a pattern, and the sequence of the cards is one of the most important parts of the pattern. Don't skip.
"- Swapping the card in question with one from a different deck (i.e. The Fool from the BOTA deck) or with one you created yourself that contained all the symbolism of the card but arranged in a manner so that the card dozen’t miss the mark."
I wouldn't recommend it. The most important things on each card aren't in their pictures anyway - but in their attributions which you will be learning along the way - but it seems important to stay with an internally consistent symbol set.
"-Using a shorter circuit that deals with the lower part of the tree."
That might be a specialized practice, but isn't the full practice you were talking about; so, ultimately, it's not a solution.
"Also, what kind of disadvantages/problems could arise from building up a pattern of images that contained a bad image or two? Thank you in advance."
BTW, in case it matters to this conversation - I didn't say the cards were bad. I said there were a couple I didn't like. BIG difference!
If they are out and out BAD (= seriously wrong suggestions to subconsciousness), then I'd skip the deck altogether. Because, ultimately, that's what you're doing in meditating on the cards: You are systematically programming subconsciousness.
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hey, i've an honest inquiry
i myself have been wanting to get a tarot deck for some time...might ask for one for xmas or something...or probably just buy one when i get the extra dough.
ive seen the Waite deck, and its pretty good
but i really want the Thoth deck for its rich symbolism and imagery
now...ive noticed there is like one Thoth deck that is over $100, one thats in the $50-$80 range, and then theres this one:
which is only like $30.
$80+ seems like a helluva price for a tarot deck...just dont know if i can shell out that kind of dough. do you think the one in the link i posted would still suit my fancy better then the Rider/Waite deck?
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The one in your link is the Muller version. It's the best-produced, and the only version I'd recommend.
Be sure it's the size you want, though - on a quick glance, I didn't notice what size that deck was.
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Thats surprising, considering there are some Thoth decks over 100 dollars on amazon. Well, that contents me... Definetly planned on obtaining a tarot deck, hopefully Thoth...Thanks for the advice
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The '88 US Games Systems deck can be had at Borders for $20 fwiw.
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@rein said
"Thats surprising, considering there are some Thoth decks over 100 dollars on amazon."
On a quick glance, the only ones at that price are from third party dealers, not from Amazon directly. For example, though some of the following are "new," they aren't from Amazon directly:
www.amazon.com/Aleister-Crowley-Thoth-Tarot-Deck/dp/0913866156/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257185417&sr=8-1When an item is out of print, many instantly considedr it a collector's item no matter what its quality, and jack the price accordingly.