"Can't we all just get along?"
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@Tinman said
"LMAO"
Indubitably! This thread seems to be kind of like a picture book. Accompanying the text on the subject matter are illustrations of the subject matter. It is very helpful. Thanks for your contributions, froclown.
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I hope this is not too off topic to the OP... I read this article recently, and found it interesting:
www.erwinhessle.com/writings/pdfs/The_Ethics_of_Thelema.pdf
The perennial question seems to be when to shrug your shoulders at another, and when to pipe up.
Can two wills be in conflict? Two stars can collide can't they? (of course, it's not often, and when it does, it's cataclysmic)
So, I've made a personal resolution to "let go" of any conflict (not to say an intellectual debate is a conflict, per se), unless my true will is being obstructed. And if so, I should be prepared to take it all the way, without compunction (until my path is clear). As a "plus" that mindset underscores the seriousness of my will, and of not treating trivial stuff as my true will...
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I'm singing in the rain, just singing in the rain....
@Edward Mason said
"A year or two back, Jim Eshelman started posting daily texts from the Thelemic Tephilah, to start a devotionally oriented thread, or process. Ultimately, it bombed - people still wanted to debate and discuss fact and the meaning of words."
I miss that
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@Uni_Verse said
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@Edward Mason said
"A year or two back, Jim Eshelman started posting daily texts from the Thelemic Tephilah, to start a devotionally oriented thread, or process. Ultimately, it bombed - people still wanted to debate and discuss fact and the meaning of words."I miss that
"I missed that too. I joined to forums shortly before that section went away. I'd probably contribute if it came back.
Need more Netzach at Heruraha.net!!
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One major issue I find confusing is that there seems to be this mixed message being “preached” in Liber Legis. On one hand you have, “Come forth, o children, under the stars, & take your fill of love! I am above you and in you. My ecstasy is in yours. My joy is to see your joy.” At the same time you find, “We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world.” You find, “Love one another with burning hearts” as opposed to, “Mercy let be of: damn them who pity! Kill and torture; spare not; be upon them!”. It seems painfully obvious, despite what some clowns my like to think, that such passages are not condoning rampant murder, at least to me. Is this a display of the nature of dualism, an Eastern yin-yang thing or some Crowley mind-fuck? Interestingly enough, you often find people generally fall into one of the two broad categories when it comes to their personal interpretations of Thelema: “hippie“ or “hater“. Liber Legis even makes an effort to warn those who have ears to hear, “There is great danger in me; for who doth not understand these runes shall make a great miss.” Any more sage advice out there?
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Not sure anyone can resolve the Hadit and Nuit for you.
In words and symbols we can certainly invoke the 5=6, the rose and cross, the sexual union, and many others, but these are sign posts than point the way. The reason tends to hold one or the other, or the rationalize and resolve the one in the terms of the other.We can switch between one view or the other, but resolving the opposites can not be done fully by the reason, much less by the emotion.
When you have fully explored the details of both views so that each seems to contain and transform into the other. Then and only then You would be advised and admitted to practice the formula of the Rose and Cross.
If you are ready, I would suggest you begin such practice and perhaps conjoin this with an Abramelin ritual like Liber Samekh.
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I guess that notion of opposing forces constantly jockying for position in order to acheive that perfect delicate balance is the inherent structure of Liber Legis: Had! The Manifestation of Nuit and Nu! The hiding of Hadit culminating in the Reward of Ra Hoor Khut.
Has anyone ever able to attain that sublime merged state signified by the 6-pointed star (the red and blue triangels meeting) and remain there? Or are there only glimpses of this available? Is this life defined by the dance between the pillars as the very human personification of the ever-evolving Middle Pillar of Equilibrium? (Woo! L.A. Confidential!)
At a certain point the futility of it all overcomes me. Still, I see too many instances where caution and humility are encouraged:
"Yet, oh aspirant, let thy victories bring thee not Vanity, for with increase of Knowledge should come increase of Wisdom. He who knoweth little, thinketh he knoweth much; but he who knoweth much hath learned his own ignorance. Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? There is more hope of a fool, than of him.
"Be not hasty to condemn others; how knowest thou that in their place, thou couldst have resisted the temptation? And even were it so, why shouldest thou despise one who is weaker than thyself?
"Thou therefore who desirest Magical Gifts, be sure that thy soul is firm and steadfast; for it is by flattering thy weaknesses that the Weak Ones will gain power over thee. Humble thyself before they Self, yet fear neither man nor spirit. Fear is failure, and the forerunner of failure; and courage is the begining of virture."
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VITRIOL,
I learned a lot about the apparently dual-sided nature of existence that Liber Legis speaks of (by the way, some other authors who speak of this as well are Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu) through the practice of martial arts. Fighting is a practice that naturally tends to encourage things like aggression, tension, fear, hatred, unyielding strength and so on. Yet almost paradoxically, the most effective fighters are those who can remain calm, relaxed, unafraid, loving, yielding, and even therapeutic in their actions, even if those actions are knocking an assailant unconscious, breaking limbs, or even perhaps killing them if need be.
One thing that Liber Legis displays is that one can be merciful and severe at the same time. The brutality of unhindered force without love is misguided. Love without selectively directed unstoppable force is ineffective. If you've ever tried being truly honest with yourself about yourself, you've probably found that it can hurt like hell, and that we cover ourselves from ourselves with layer upon layer of protective (hiding) mechanisms. One who has not the capability to be "cruel" or "harsh" will have trouble being truly honest. One who has not the capability to be loving and caring will have trouble being truly honest.
In learning how to balance ourselves out, it is easy to swing from one side to the other. Most of us on this forum are in the process of learning this balancing act and will be for decades to come. It's best to bear with the hippies and haters and recognize that we're just learning.
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"":kw9gcu3q]One major issue I find confusing is that there seems to be this mixed message being “preached” in Liber Legis. On one hand you have, “Come forth, o children, under the stars, & take your fill of love! I am above you and in you. My ecstasy is in yours. My joy is to see your joy.” At the same time you find, “We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world.” You find, “Love one another with burning hearts” as opposed to, “Mercy let be of: damn them who pity! Kill and torture; spare not; be upon them!”. "
I've long found it most useful to realize that Liber L. is presenting three distinctive points of view - one in each chapter - and allowed the three separate (and often disagreeing) aspects to simply coexist.
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"":2rmazenk]I guess that notion of opposing forces constantly jockying for position in order to acheive that perfect delicate balance is the inherent structure of Liber Legis"
It need not be seen so competitively. They can simply coexist. (See, you've adopted a particular poiont of view in your labelling of them.)
"Has anyone ever able to attain that sublime merged state signified by the 6-pointed star (the red and blue triangels meeting) and remain there? Or are there only glimpses of this available? "
That's a great (even insightful) question. The answer to the question as asked is, of course they have. But I think the question you mean to ask is more about the typical reaching of that place.
There does come a point where (speaking symbolically) the two triangles, instead of naturally gravitating apart unless held together by concentration, switch to naturally falling into each other. A union is made that is permanent. But, that link being deep rather than superficial, it is in the individual's depths that it's experienced, and not necessarily in his or her surface or superficial aspects that it is always evident. In some ways one could say that, the fusion having been made, one is "visited" by it here and there with greater frequency. But at the same time, if it was authentically made, the link is continually present, even in the personality's worst moments.
The personality isn't dispensed with, nor is it where the transformation essentially takes place. It does, however, undergo healing for years thereafter simply by its exposure to the deep union that never departs.
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To Love a person with a burning heart is to kill them. For Love unites, and in its fiery embrace there ceases to be separation.
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Well, I hope not.
chrys333 -
@Jim Eshelman said
"There does come a point where (speaking symbolically) the two triangles, instead of naturally gravitating apart unless held together by concentration, switch to naturally falling into each other. A union is made that is permanent. But, that link being deep rather than superficial, it is in the individual's depths that it's experienced, and not necessarily in his or her surface or superficial aspects that it is always evident. In some ways one could say that, the fusion having been made, one is "visited" by it here and there with greater frequency. But at the same time, if it was authentically made, the link is continually present, even in the personality's worst moments."
I have to say reading this has swept away a great deal of confusion.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"There does come a point where (speaking symbolically) the two triangles, instead of naturally gravitating apart unless held together by concentration, switch to naturally falling into each other. A union is made that is permanent. But, that link being deep rather than superficial, it is in the individual's depths that it's experienced, and not necessarily in his or her surface or superficial aspects that it is always evident. In some ways one could say that, the fusion having been made, one is "visited" by it here and there with greater frequency. But at the same time, if it was authentically made, the link is continually present, even in the personality's worst moments.
The personality isn't dispensed with, nor is it where the transformation essentially takes place. It does, however, undergo healing for years thereafter simply by its exposure to the deep union that never departs."
Jim, at what point on the path (in the context of the grade system of the A.A.) does this typically occur? I want to say that this happens at the 5=6 stage, but then the above description seems like it might fit with the integration stage that I would associate with 2=9 (I'm referring here to the integration of the elements under spirit).
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@Herr Meow said
"Jim, at what point on the path (in the context of the grade system of the A.A.) does this typically occur? I want to say that this happens at the 5=6 stage, but then the above description seems like it might fit with the integration stage that I would associate with 2=9 (I'm referring here to the integration of the elements under spirit)."
In the sense I described: Adeptus Minor Within.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"In the sense I described: Adeptus Minor Within."
That clears up my question. Thanks.