Deciphering a version of the LBRP
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@Uni_Verse said
"I come to think my own pronunciations must be horrid o.O
At the same time, it could be bad audio quality."
Bad audio doesn't account for wrong vowels, no knowledge of syllable accents, etc.
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I've got some great audio CDs from Regardie by the folks over at Original Falcon that do a great job letting me hear these mysterious words pronounced by someone who hopefully knows what he's doing.
Is there anything similar to this work but with more of a thelemic bent? For example a cd, or site (a free service for all the brothers and sisters like me that haven't been properly taught) that goes through various thelemic-centric words and their proper pronunciation.
For example - Hadit, Aiwass, Nuit, names used in various rituals, etc.
Just wondering if there is anything "official" or "blessed by approval" out there rather than me trying to piece it all together from users youtube vids.
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Unlike Regardie pronouncing Hebrew (which is no doubt very useful, and rather authoritative from a pronunciation point of view), I have a hard time imagining an authoritative Thelemic pronunciation guide being anything but cringe-worthy.
I'm not trying to be superior or hypercritical (as I know next to nothing about Ancient Egyptian pronunciation rules), it's just that pronunciation of Ancient Egyptian is a bit contentious: much of the popular standard pronunciation is based on corrupted versions of names, via Greek for example. Even scholarly pronunciation is generally based on both simplication and guesswork. (Example: have you ever heard a magician - or anyone for that matter - pronounce "Ra" as "Ray" - which is much closer to correct than "Rah"? I haven't)
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@Oscillate said
"Having attended recently an FLO sound and colour meditation, I was wondering whether it is appropriate to use their pitched intonation of the Hebrew names when performing the LBRP?"
Certainly.
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@AvshalomBinyamin said
"I know next to nothing about Ancient Egyptian pronunciation rules"
Everybody knows next to nothing about Ancient Egyptian pronunciation rules. Egyptian writing only represented consonants, and scholars can only make best guesses about the vowels based on related languages, the way Greeks occasionally transliterated Egyptian words, and knowledge about how language works in general. Mostly, scholars don't try.Also, "Ancient Egyptian" was spoken throughout Egypt for 3000 years. It wasn't pronounced just one way. Think of how contemporary English compares with the English of Shakespeare (considered "early modern English") or Chaucer ("Middle English"). And think of how any English word is pronounced in various parts of the US, Canada, England, Australia, Jamaica, etc.
An Egyptian dialect of the Middle Kingdom eventually became settled on as a standard liturgical dialect. In other words, religious texts continued to be written in it long after anyone spoke it, much like Latin in the Roman Catholic world. Until the 1960s, a Roman Catholic priest had to speak Latin in the mass, but the "correct" pronunciation depended on the country in which he learned his Latin. So a British priest speaking Latin would sound different from a Polish priest, even though each was being careful to use the "correct" pronunciation according to his training.
Scholars have taken to writing the sun god's name Re instead of Ra, though I don't know why. The written form shows an R sound (and there are several R sounds in the world's languages) and a glottal stop (the souundless consonant in the middle of "uh-oh"). So it may have been pronounced Ra-ah or Ro-ee or, for all anyone knows, Ooroo-oo. (Actually, I believe the Greeks spelled it "Ra", so we know that that's how the Greeks of the late Ptolemaic period thought the Egyptians pronounced it.)
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Would these be correct?
Atoh - (ah-toh)
Malkuth (mal-kooth)
Ve-Geburah (veh-gee-boo-rah)
Ve-Gedulah (veh-gee-doo-lah)
Le-Olam (lee-oh-lum)
Amen (ah-mayn)YHVH (yoad-hay-vaahv-hay)
ADONAI (ah-do-noy)
EHIEH (eh-hay-yay)
AGLA (ah-guh-lah) -
Try listening to Regardie's LBRP. His pronounciation and accents are accurate. Now if you can combine Regardie with the vibrational technique of the first guy, you would have a powerful LBRP.
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It all depends. There are two ways of pronouncing ancient Hebrew, Regardie was raised in the Sephardi tradition and used that for his first book of Cabala, later he "gave in" to the Ashkenazi version used by most Christian and post-Christian cabalists. For example, Malkuth in Sephardi is pronounced Malkous (the -ous as in famous).
Based on training from an Ashkenazi Rabbi brought up in Britain I do not vibrate at all. When demonstrating I use:
At'uh (short -uh)
Malkut (rhymes with foot)
V'Gebura (like The Deborah)
V'Gedule (as above)
L'Olam (rhymes with lowland with a slight stop after the L)
Am'n (rhymes with a hillbilly saying "Charming" as charm'n) -
@sethur said
"It all depends. There are two ways of pronouncing ancient Hebrew, Regardie was raised in the Sephardi tradition and used that for his first book of Cabala, later he "gave in" to the Ashkenazi version used by most Christian and post-Christian cabalists. For example, Malkuth in Sephardi is pronounced Malkous (the -ous as in famous).
Based on training from an Ashkenazi Rabbi brought up in Britain I do not vibrate at all. When demonstrating I use:
At'uh (short -uh)
Malkut (rhymes with foot)
V'Gebura (like The Deborah)
V'Gedule (as above)
L'Olam (rhymes with lowland with a slight stop after the L)
Am'n (rhymes with a hillbilly saying "Charming" as charm'n)"
Just to clarify, Sephardi pronunciation is with Tav pronounced 't' in all cases. Ashkenazi pronounce Tav as 's', unless it is with a dagesh, in which case it is 't'. Sephardi also occasionally (Iraqi and Yemenite always) pronounce 'Ayin as a voiced pharyngeal fricative (like the Arabic 'Ayin), and Cheth as a voiceless pharyngeal fricative (like Arabic Ḥa) as opposed to the voiceless uvular fricative (as in 'loch').The pronunciation you were taught seems to be Sephardi on the consonants but Ashkenazi on the vowels, as a Sephardi would pronounce Geburah as 'Ge-vu-ra', as opposed to Gebora.
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@PatchworkSerpen said
"Just to clarify, Sephardi pronunciation is with Tav pronounced 't' in all cases."
That's only true of modern Sephardic, especially as institutionalized in Israel. It's not true of Medieval Sephardic, nor of the older Hebrew dialect on which it is based.
"Ashkenazi pronounce Tav as 's', unless it is with a dagesh, in which case it is 't'."
Through Medieval times, the Sephardic soft Tav was pronounced 'th' and the Ashkenazi soft Tav as 's'. This is the same linguistic transition that took Latin-based older English 'th' as in goeth and evolved it into Germanic-based newer English 's' as in goes.
But 19th Century Hebrew scholars had other ideas and institutionalized the language differently.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@PatchworkSerpen said
"Just to clarify, Sephardi pronunciation is with Tav pronounced 't' in all cases."That's only true of modern Sephardic, especially as institutionalized in Israel. It's not true of Medieval Sephardic, nor of the older Hebrew dialect on which it is based."
Of course. I was thinking more in terms of what I have heard - I wasn't aware of a difference in Medieval Sephardic."
"Ashkenazi pronounce Tav as 's', unless it is with a dagesh, in which case it is 't'."Through Medieval times, the Sephardic soft Tav was pronounced 'th' and the Ashkenazi soft Tav as 's'. This is the same linguistic transition that took Latin-based older English 'th' as in goeth and evolved it into Germanic-based newer English 's' as in goes.
But 19th Century Hebrew scholars had other ideas and institutionalized the language differently."
Interesting. I suppose the institutionalisation of Hebrew simplified and standardised this (and many more such idiosyncrasies). Ancient Hebrew phonology was closer to that of modern-day Arabic (Gimel and Daleth without a dagesh as 'j' and 'th', as in 'that', and of course 'Ayin and Ḥeth). Out of curiosity, which pronunciation is preferred in the Western Ceremonial tradition - or by yourself, for that matter? -
@PatchworkSerpen said
"Out of curiosity, which pronunciation is preferred in the Western Ceremonial tradition - or by yourself, for that matter?"
In Temple of Thelema, our goal is to use ancient Hebrew so far as available information will let us reconstruct it, and that reconstruction is essentially Sephardic.
AFAIK BTW, we're the first Order in the Golden Dawn tradition to care enough about Hebrew pronunciation to actually have an instructon dedicated to it.
Though I agree very broadly with your inferences about the double letters in theory, it doesn't appear to have been that in practice. If I may, here are some extended notes on the pronunciations of the double letters.
The seven Double Letters (B, G, D, K, P, R, Th) are thus called because each has two sounds, a hard sound and a soft sound.
The double sound has not been preserved for all seven. Furthermore, the “double” usage is, in some cases, varies significantly in different dialects.
BETH: All Hebrew dialects retain the use of two sounds for the letter Beth. The hard Beth has the sound of an English b. The soft Beth has a sound nearly like the English v, but made with the lips instead of with the teeth. That is, instead of being a dental, it is a labial, like the b; in fact, it is simply a “softened” b. Therefore, our b is nearly as accurate as the v sound, if one has difficulty saying the labial v.
GIMEL: Other than the Yemenite Jews, there is no used difference between the hard and soft Gimel. (To the Yemenites, the soft Gimel has the sound of the English j. It, and not a Yod, is the correct way to make a j sound in Hebrew.) No distinction is made, in Temple of Thelema, between the hard and soft Gimel.
DALETH: Other than the Yemenite Jews, there is no used difference between the hard and soft Daleth. (To the Yemenites, the soft Daleth has the sound of the soft English th, as in “this.”) No distinction is made, in Temple of Thelema, between the hard and soft Daleth.
KAPH: All Hebrew dialects retain the use of two sounds for the letter Kaph. The hard Kaph is exactly like the English k. The soft Kaph is essentially the same hard ch or kh sound that is characteristic of the letter Cheth. [It's possible to make a theoretical fine distinction between the two - the depth of the gutteral - but in practice I can't tell that the distinction has ever been dialectically practiced.]
PEH: All Hebrew dialects retain the use of two sounds for the letter Peh. The hard Peh sounds like the English p. The soft Peh sounds like the English ph or f.
RESH: Despite the inclusion of Resh among the Double Letters, no double sound has survived, and none can be readily discerned by Hebrew grammarians. (Modern Hebrew doesn;t even recognize the distinction of two forms for the letter.) Nonetheless, two forms do appear in ancient Hebrew. It is likely that the presently accepted sound (same as the English r) is the original soft sound, and that a very rare hard sound has been lost, possibly identical to the Greek `r (usually transliterated rh as in the letter-name Rho).
TAV: The hard Tav is pronounced like the English t. There is, however, greater variation in the pronunciation of the soft Tav than any of these others. Ashkenazi Jews pronounce it like an s. Some Sephardic dialects, including that which is official in modern Isræl, pronounce it like a t, just like the hard Tav. However, the more ancient usage, which is still common in some modern Sephardic dialects, is to pronounce it like the English hard th, as in “thanks.” This latter usage is the one adopted as official in Temple of Thelema. It is interesting to note that the variation between the Sephardic th and Ashkenazi s is the apparently the same linguistic migration that occurred from Old English to Modern English, e.g., words such as sayeth becoming says.
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@Oscillate said
"Thank you for the excellent information Jim. Are you able to supplement it with a guide to the pronunciation of the Hebrew names in the LBRP as taught in the Temple of Thelema?"
It's very difficult to render this without diacritical marks not really available in the forum format. Pronunciation also is affected by the vibration style.
E.g.: The magical tradition advises giving each Hebrew letter a separate, equally-weighted syllable. This makes a difference between pronunciation of the Names per se, and their pronunciation in the Pentagram Ritual (which is what you asked about). For example AHYH is pronounced chanted EH-HEH-YI-YEH.
So... know this is crude... try this:
YOHD HEY VAV HEY
AH-DOH-NAH-YEE
EH-HEH-YI-YEH
ATTAH GIBOOR LEH-OLAHM AH-DOH-NAH-YEERAH-PHAH-AY-EL
GAH-AHB-REE-EE-AY-EL
MEE-EE-KAI-AY-EL
OO-OO-REE-EE-AY-EL -
Regarding Gimel:
Most of the Yemenite diaspora pronounces soft gimel like the Arabic letter ghayn (gargly sound), not arabic gim (English "j").
There are some sub-dialects in Yemen that do proncounce it as the english "j" (such as the Sana'ani), but that doesn't fit with the method of Daghesh, since the "g" and "j" sounds are made in completely different areas of the mouth. Whereas Daghesh is about aspirated vs explosive (oversimplifying a bit), and an aspirated hard "g" is a ghayn.
More likely, this alternate pronunciation ("j") it is a back-formation from Arabic.
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It is, in my uninitiated opinion, that the pronunciation that resonates best with yourself is the "correct" one.
Some pronunciations make me cringe, while others are pleasing to my ears. I wouldn't be able to place myself in the proper mood of doing these things if I sounded ridiculous to myself, because of the way my mind has already familiarized and adapted to a particular way of saying these words.
You shouldn't force yourself to pronounce something in a manner which feels unsuitable to you, or rubs you the wrong way.
2¢
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@ThreeDayMonk said
"You shouldn't force yourself to pronounce something in a manner which feels unsuitable to you, or rubs you the wrong way."
There are times when you need to align yourself with the vibraton that us unpleasing because you're "wrong."
I first learned this lesson with magical oils. An oil for a particular purpose sometimes would be unpleasant to me. But I would wear it for the affect. As I wore it over a few days, my "vibes" (and tastes and temperament) would shift to be in alignment with the oil, and the intended results (usually character shifts) would begin.
If you're just going to pick a pronunciation based on whether it is pleasing to you, then you might as well make up the words. There are right and wrong ways to pronounce these words, and use of correct pronunciation has an objective effect.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@PatchworkSerpen said
"Out of curiosity, which pronunciation is preferred in the Western Ceremonial tradition - or by yourself, for that matter?"In Temple of Thelema, our goal is to use ancient Hebrew so far as available information will let us reconstruct it, and that reconstruction is essentially Sephardic.
AFAIK BTW, we're the first Order in the Golden Dawn tradition to care enough about Hebrew pronunciation to actually have an instructon dedicated to it.
Though I agree very broadly with your inferences about the double letters in theory, it doesn't appear to have been that in practice. If I may, here are some extended notes on the pronunciations of the double letters."
Thanks for this, great to see a tradition in constant evolution - one more thing: do you pronounce 'Ayin and Qoph gutturally (as in Arabic) or as a weak consonant and 'k', respectively, as do most modern Hebrew speakers?By the way, Cheth is pronounced at the back of the throat (as in Arabic) and so differentiated from Khaph by Iraqi and Yemenite speakers. It is also the 'Standard' pronunciation in the State of Israel, though colloquially most speakers pronounce it like Khaph (similarly, 'Ayin and Qoph become like Aleph and Kaph colloquially).
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@PatchworkSerpen said
"one more thing: do you pronounce 'Ayin and Qoph gutturally (as in Arabic) or as a weak consonant and 'k', respectively, as do most modern Hebrew speakers?"
In general, don't confuse Hebrew with Arabic, or look for Hebrew sounds from Arabic. They're traced in their own right.
A'ayin is basically a glottal stop. It's most characterized by the vowel it takes, though it's distinctive contribution is the glottal interruption. Qoph is indistinguishable from the English Q, which might as well be a K to most people's ear (though it's slightly distinctive).
"By the way, Cheth is pronounced at the back of the throat (as in Arabic) and so differentiated from Khaph by Iraqi and Yemenite speakers."
Yes, as I said, the soft Kaph is technically distinct; but it's also pronounced back in the throat. (There's a line as these sounds move back across the roof of the mouth and down the throat.) - To most native English speakers' ears, there is no discernible difference between a Cheth and a soft Kaph.
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@Oscillate said
"Does one apply the same approach to the Hebrew in the Qabbalistic Cross? I would be most grateful if you could provide a similar guide to the pronunciations as per your example for the LBRP."
Yes, the same principle would apply to that.
Just going off the top of my head, without even a copy of the pointed Hebrew in front of me, the syllable-for-letter vibration would be:
AH-TAH-AH
AH-EE-WA-AHZ
MA-AL-KOO-OO-OOTh
VE-GE-BOO-OO-OOR-AH
VE-GE-DOO-OO-OOL-AH
LE-OH-OH-OL-AHM