Initiation in Occultism
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93,
"If you say that a secret chief is running your organization then show this chief, make it not secret, show how the chief has dealt with the orders taxes or other funding issues, settled disputes, or worked to produce legislation, show its signature on some document or some proof that such a person exists. Once we know who the person is them we can evaluate claims that this person can shape-shift, transcend physical locations and perform miracles. "
I make no personal assertions regarding Secret Chiefs, if only because I'm not sure how such a being (or beingness) could be described. I would, however, be highly disappointed if such an entity was even interested in tax returns. Or, for that matter, could be shown to anybody in the sense you mean. Think, at least, about what such a being would actually be doing before you say you expect it to be something other than what it is.
This discussion will, obviously, spin its wheels until one day you see the constant contradictions you produce. Example:
"The mind is the brain in action. ONLY material substances exist, there is nothing non-physical. "
Look at what you've written here. In one sentence, mind, in the next, matter. You dodge your own inconsistency by denying half the phenomena you need to mention, insisting mind is really material - that is , it's the epiphenomenon that the first sentence of your last response states you had never claimed to exist.
The contradictions are compounded by the utterly unprovable dogmatism of the second sentence. You insist on an empirical standpoint but resort to materialistic fundamentalism as your last resort.
I'm not bothered by your skepticism, but by your lack of logic.
93 93/93,
Edward
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the word mind is a carry over form false beliefs of the past.
The mind is the brain.
The engine and the "engine running" are both just called the engine. the fact that it is running only means the physical the parts of the engine are moving, it's not an epiphenomena of the engine's actions; the running IS the engine and nothing more.
Brain = the inert matter of the brain
mind = the brain in action.There is no contradiction
And what does the leader of an organization do?
They deal with tax documents, legalities, fund raising, internal disputes, membership drives, expenses, distribution of materials, creating long term goals, hiring and firing people (delegating power) etc. If these secrete chiefs are doing any of these they have ot be known, they have to have ids social security numbers, they have to be REAL people that have physical bodies. If they are not doing any of this then what the hell are they doing? nothing of any practical vlaue that's what. -
October Froclown says, "My strong desire not to be duped manifest itself in the LSD intoxication as a realization that my mind was being easily convinced of anything and I had no discrimination faculty, I decided to apply the "Nothing is TRUE, everything is permissible" formula to every random ideal than appeared in my mind to claim its absolute profound truth to me."
@froclown said
"I can say mother nature raged and bellowed her screams and tears ravaged the earth. That is a poetic way of saying that it was storming and thunder loud wind and rain were present that damaged the crops."
October Froclown responds, ""NOTHING IN TRUE" that means all is false, NO, as False is just validating the opposite truth. if "it is raining" is false that means "It is not raining" is TRUE but NOTHING IS TRUE. "
@froclown said
"ONLY material substances exist... it has been tested and shone time and time again."
October froclown, "All perceptions and all thoughts, dismiss them all as interpretations with no validity. And let your mind wonder as it may trying to interpret and convince you this or that is TRUE, but do not let it convince you.
The harder my semantic mind tried to push of an Idea as the final real one great truth, the harder I resisted, and any illusion can be killed with Nothing is TRUE as your soldier, where as any illusion can be entertained as an illusion with "Everything is permissible" as your hunchback. "
Froclown, I think your October self has a point, and you could do well to listen to him very carefully. Your strong to desire to not be duped, coupled with your insistence that nothing is true, has shown you that anytime you think something is true, you are "being duped". It seems as if the more you realize this, the more you resist, and the more you desire to build up a fortress of something being true or real. That fortress is your idea of the material world.
This is your idea of the final, real one great truth:
@froclown said
"material substances exist"
These are your perceptions, these are your thoughts. "Dismiss them all as interpretations with no validity." Rain, humidity, neurons, graphite, paper, visual cortex, dreams, taxes, legislation. All of these can found and verified... by your perceptions. All of these can be rationally conceived and considered... by your mind. They are all thought-forms. You seem to be painfully avoiding the obvious conclusions which your own logic makes clear.
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted," and yet you refused to permit the original thread to continue unharassed because you thought that it was impinging upon your idea of what is true.
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Or, as Emo Phillips puts it... "I used to think that the brain was the most fascinating part of the body, and then I realized - look who's telling me that.." (paraphrased)
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Ah but you do not see that the "October me" was talking about a method of exploring the mind cut off from external perception, it was an the an attempt to find a fundamental truth, when the senses than connect the mind to the external material world are removed from the equation completely. It was the reason turned to explain the reason itself, a method by which the ruach deconstructs itself. Much like the instructions given in Liber OS ABYSMI VEL DAATH.
However lucky for us we are not self-contained ruach with no interaction to the external world. Truth is not generated within the mind but rather is a co-operative venture between the mind and the external stimulation. Indeed for the black brother or one lost in the abyss "nothing in TRUE" and every statement is as meaningless as every other statement, as truth means that the map corresponds to the territory, the statements and concepts of the ruach have to express the fundamental physical reality. The only link we have to that reality is via the sense organs and those are tested against other people's observations while also factors than may cause malfunction of the sense organs or mis-interpretation of the sensory data are removed. The truth is then built up over time, via repeated experiments the results compared and contrasted and the experiments tweaked.
That is the method of science. In order to be valid teh scientific method must work from the foundation than the Physical world in the substratum on which all reasoned thoughts, emotions, sense of spiritual planes etc. are abstracted.
That is The tree of life must be inverted the same way Marx inverted Hegel.
Kether is in a sense derived from or purified (rarefied) out of Malkuth, rather than the Physical world being the emmination of the spiritual "GOD". The Physical body is the most real, we can develop emotions, thoughts and other ability only by conditioning the physical body/brain. The process of evolution for example begins with inorganic material, which over time develops self-replication, then sexual reproduction, movement, attractions and repulsion, these refine into emotions, which over time in some animals refine into symbolic thought. But all of this is still happening to physical matter, and the attractions, emotions, and thoughts are all merely refined processes that occur via the complex arrangement and interaction of physical matter.
The method of science is aimed at religion.
the aim of religion is to understand ones personal identity as part of a larger process of life, an part of a family, society, nation, biosphere, and cosmos. Which is better achieved via the refinement of one's material ability and an understanding of oneself as part of a material chain of events, where those who came before you contributed to your refinement and you may contribute to the future. Where Magick is a science and art of honing ones concentration, visualization, self-discipline, sense of identity and social identity, in order to better fit oneself for ones place in the greater scheme of life, that ones unique place in that great work might be performed more effectively and efficiently. -
You are so full of ideas, froclown! But wait, you're not-- because ideas don't actually exist... Right? Ok, you're so full of brain, froclown! Wait... "you" is an idea, so that doesn't exist either. Ok, So much brains, froclown!
Wait a second! Isn't "**(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain:23a1bpya)" a concept/idea in itself as well?Ok, ok, I get it. "The Brain" is not a concept/idea. "Ideas/concepts" are actually The Brain (in action). And The Brain, of course, is the inert matter of The Brain. But then... what's "The Brain"? Science replies "the center of the nervous system". Oh no. For our one Brain we now have two ideas. centerness and nervous system. Hmm. This is starting to sound familiar...
Damnit! I can't seem to get around to explaining stuff without using words and ideas, all of which are merely representational. And what must they truly represent? Why, the "Physical World" of course! Damnit, I did it again! What is the Physical World?? Help me out here, Ronald McDonald.
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No you only have conscious awareness of ideas, an idea is merely a relative change in the state of the brain.
Ideas are not things, they are processes, changes in the movement of the parts of the brain. The brain is not your idea of the brain, the brain is the physical material thing of which only one tiny part of the brain is a representation of itself.
The brain like a computer is a material hardware than runs software. The ideas are the software. The software is actually just a pattern of hardware states. The computer has a little gif image of a computer with the label My computer under it. That icon is not the computer itself it is merely the software representation (idea) of the computer than is only one tiny portion of the hard dive memory space, which is a physical actual part of the computer.
Look at the word TREE, there is nothing in the word tree that is not in the letters T E R and another E. The word is made of its parts, and the there is nothing in the letter T that is no in a vertical and horizontal line and the line has to be made of a material substance be it ink or colored phosphorus illuminated by on electron pulse behind a class shield.
The word only comes to exist as you arrange the more basic matter in a certain way. An idea is relative and dynamic arrangement of brain matter.
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Greetings of Peace. Seeing that this thread has become sidetracked toward the consideration of scientific objectivity, I would like to take the opportunity to restate my last questions in the hopes of eliciting a response.
Are there more or less objective criteria that a prospective candidate may use for exercising discernment prior to joining an initiatory order. Is there such a thing as "orthodoxy" and "orthopraxy" in occultism or are the standards of judgment entirely subjective and relative?
It is a much repeated axiom that initiation is for the few rather than for the masses for whom, in the words of the introduction to the Temple of Thelema, "conventional religions are provided". What criteria, if any, are used by occult orders to determine who belongs to this few? According to occultism, are there any intellectual or moral qualifications for initiation?
Finally, although aspirants possess diverse motives for pursuing initiation, what is the purpose of initiation as determined by the occult orders? Also, how does the fruit of initiation manifest itself within the life of the initiate (or within your lives for those of you who are initiates?
In Peace,
Philalethes -
Well I would say that the practices before the first initiation are open to anyone to try them out, and have allot to do with developing the ability to concentrate, the memory, and greater control over ones psychology, part of the process is introspective deconstruction of ones identity.
These practices trigger a sort of re-construction of the mind that shifts the center of identity, and the actual initiation is more like a test to prove this has happened as well as the explanation/solidification of that new center of self via relation to external symbols and situations. The culmination of which is the invitation to form a sort of social identity than supports the new self-identity. The actual Grade and title is merely a badge or sign.
What I mean here is that as I see it the actual work of the initiation is already completed, before the group ritual itself is offered. The ritual provides more or stable set of common symbols to help provide stability for the initiate who is probably by this point feeling a bit shaken up and unsure of his new perspective.
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Greetings of Peace to you as well.
Qualification to these answers: Your own mileage may vary...
@philalethes said
"Greetings of Peace. Seeing that this thread has become sidetracked toward the consideration of scientific objectivity, I would like to take the opportunity to restate my last questions in the hopes of eliciting a response.
Are there more or less objective criteria that a prospective candidate may use for exercising discernment prior to joining an initiatory order. "
There are less. It's pretty much an entirely subjective process, and it's not uncommon for individuals to change orders after they have gotten their feet wet in one and developed their own set of criteria. Also, I don't know how much you interact with Reality on a spiritual level, but you might also make this aspiration of yours a matter of prayer, meditation, or symbolic action. But as you are asking for "objective" criteria, probably the best thing you can do is ask around about the reputation of various orders and read what material you can find from their founders and present leadership.
Mostly, the only "objective" criterion I know of is that the more their webpage attempts to convince you of their "sole authentic lineage,"
the less they are probably authentically participating in the true mystical tradition of universal brotherhood."Is there such a thing as "orthodoxy" and "orthopraxy" in occultism or are the standards of judgment entirely subjective and relative?"
In my experience there isn't as much orthodoxy and orthopraxy as much as there is good scholarship vs. poor scholarship, safety concerns vs. poor safety concerns, consistent results vs. negligible results, and order-serving leadership vs. self-serving leadership. Yes, perhaps those can serve as your "objective criteria." Apparently, those are mine. And, yes, I realize they are actually rather subjective.
The only questions of orthodoxy -praxy arise when you have offshoot orders who are experimenting with changing how the tradition is understood and used. For these orders, safety issues and questions of results are largely unknown because they are admittedly working outside the tradition or in new fields. Such experimentation is not recommended until much later in the initiatory process, but they'll probably welcome you with open arms. I refer you to your own standards for safety.
"It is a much repeated axiom that initiation is for the few rather than for the masses for whom, in the words of the introduction to the Temple of Thelema, "conventional religions are provided". What criteria, if any, are used by occult orders to determine who belongs to this few? "
The criteria are internal, not external. In other words, you are the one who decides whether initiation is for you and how far to go.
"According to occultism, are there any intellectual or moral qualifications for initiation? "
Intellectual - if you can understand it enough to desire to step across the threshold, then you've pretty much met the criteria. After that, it's like school, some subjects may come easily, some subjects you may struggle with.
Moral - Some orders have moral requirements to be met. It's good to ask to be sure.
"Finally, although aspirants possess diverse motives for pursuing initiation, what is the purpose of initiation as determined by the occult orders? "
Hmm... Do you mean "initiation" in terms of what happens in the heart, intellect, and spirit of the initiate, or do you mean "initiation" in terms of initiatory rituals? Initiation proper is simply the flowering of the individual into understanding of the universe and his or her relationship to it. Initiatory rituals can serve as Froclown suggested above, but they can also serve to stimulate Initiation proper as the mind (consciously and subconsciously) chews on what has been enacted. I don't know enough about the theory of one person's "psychic" energies affecting anothers toward this same aim to comment on it further.
"Also, how does the fruit of initiation manifest itself within the life of the initiate (or within your lives for those of you who are initiates?"
Ultimately.... Light, Life, Liberty and Love
There are also times of intense struggle and drastic change both internally and externally.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Love is the law, love under will. -
By their fruits ye shall know them.
(I think that covers all of your questions.)
Corollary: By their fruits & nuts ye shall know them.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"By their fruits ye shall know them.
(I think that covers all of your questions.)
Corollary: By their fruits & nuts ye shall know them."
Yes, but that supposes one knows their fruits (or nuts).
One usually one won't find that out unless one affiliates with an organisation.
I mean, as far as I know, if one was trying to judge an occult order or even just sticking with A.'.A.'. lineages, the only information that I'm aware of is: 1. a website (most of which are the same one-page, Syllabus 2. Here say on a forum (which may or may not be helpful) but since the forum participants are anonymous (usually) that confounds it more. 3. Published works by individuals associated with a particular order (provided they tell you).So, there is really very little information in helping aspirants choose the next step- or perhaps too much information. Like finding a needle in a hay-stack.
My personal conviction regarding this problem has been two-fold:
- Rely, trust, accept- solely on Divine Providence to guide me through whatever path I need to be on now. There really is no right or wrong, only cause and effect and our individual Karma dictates what lessons, challenges we face and 2. I have a hypothesis that any mature (i.e. ripe) intitiate worthy of Adepthood may not need any special incarnate guru, teacher or school (although s/he may participate with) but rather uses the published material of the last century and simply does the work and makes contact astrally with the discarnate school, the true A.'.A.'.
After all, isn't that what Crowley did after the collapse of the G.'.D.'.?
- Rely, trust, accept- solely on Divine Providence to guide me through whatever path I need to be on now. There really is no right or wrong, only cause and effect and our individual Karma dictates what lessons, challenges we face and 2. I have a hypothesis that any mature (i.e. ripe) intitiate worthy of Adepthood may not need any special incarnate guru, teacher or school (although s/he may participate with) but rather uses the published material of the last century and simply does the work and makes contact astrally with the discarnate school, the true A.'.A.'.