Psychedelic Enlightment?
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@sethur said
"I have always, in spite of my own experiences, been very wary of "psuchedelic" enlightenment. However, having just read "The Cosmic Serpent - DNA and the Origins of Consciousness" by Jeremy Narby, a very serious academic, I've changed my mind. It is worth noting, though, that LSD and Psilocybin are not true hallucinogens. The true experiences seem to involve DMT, which I've never tried. So, more good stuff to look forward to!"
How are they not 'true'? Sounds like one author's strange opinion to me...
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Since I am here by way of psychedelics and have been a rabid skeptic and materialist before encountering them, let me share a bit of my own experiences. You guys can decide whether and to what extent it was authentic, but I think it pretty much speaks for itself.
The first time that I ever tripped off shrooms (a much smaller dose than I've taken since) I spent hours laying in bed and having a schizophrenic conversation similar to the one described by the OP. Here are two features of the experience that stand out most:
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Unusually high organization of the mind. Synaesthesia is common with psychedelics in general, but it is rarely a coherent process that has a definite goal. I was not simply having synaesthetic reactions to random stimuli. Instead, there was the sense that many distinct sensory modalities came together in the service of what normally might be called ideation or abstract thought. I was "thinking" and having "ideas" but I was thinking with the visual cortex; I was hearing these ideas, and feeling them in in my body. There was an impression of unusual coherence, as though all the parts of the brain were aligned together in the service of a specific cognitive task.
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Encounter with a transcendental Other. At one point I had a clear sense of being visited by something alien. It is hard to explain exactly what I mean by "visited". In a sense, I found it with (but not "in") my brain in much the same way that one finds physical objects in physical space with eyesight. This was a sort of abstract object that existed in an abstract space that I could perceive through cognition. I might just as easily call it an "idea", but it was not in any sense an idea that "I" was having. This was an idea that had a life of its own, and once it got a foothold in the brain it exercised more control over the organism than its own egoic self-concept.
This thing, whatever it was, infected me with a level of understanding that seemed completely superhuman. I appreciated that all of the things that most bothered me or occupied the most of my attention were basically trivial, childish, and hallucinatory. There were artifacts of a fundamentally deluded way of looking at the world. This insight came along with a profound feeling of lucidity, serenity, and sanity. It also brought a recognition of the basically ignorant and hypnotized nature of my ordinary way of being in the world.
At one point I asked the Other if it was God, in some kind of naive Judaeo-Christian patriarchal sense (the only idea of God that I could conjure at the time), and it laughed. Later I asked it if it was me. This was closer to the mark but not quite correct. Yes and no was the answer.
I should mention also that there was a sense of being tested by this Other. The test was a series of metacognitive puzzles that were solved always by understanding the nature of one's own mental processes. I remember solving two or three of these, and when I finally failed to understand the last, the sense of alien presence departed (with a vibe of disappointment) although the trip went on.
Finally, let me add that when I ate more shrooms on other occasions, this entire Self vs Other dynamic gave way to something totally different. Instead of experiencing this Other as a foreign entity that was giving me information, I began to experience myself becoming it. This experience felt at once like possession and like self-remembering, as though the thing by which I was possessed was more myself than I ever had been. There was the same sense of extreme internal coherence, lucidity and sanity. But there was also the sense that I had woken up to discover myself as a kind of "meta-self" that had been hypnotized by its own thought process.
I think the parallels between this sort of experience and what is talked about in the mystical traditions do not need spelling out. In fact, it is only as a consequence of having this experience that I was able to understand that there is anything to religion and mysticism at all. Before the shrooms I was adamant that it was all superstitious nonsense.
The real problem with "psychedelic enlightenment" is that it is almost always conditional on the psychedelics. The experiences described above were so far out of my normal range of consciousness that I had simply no way to integrate them into my life. I had neither the willpower nor the trained concentration required to make them stick. (The feeling of manifesting or being the meta-self and then dissipating back into relative disorganization is particularly sickening. It feels rather like death - not the good death in which the maladaptive organization pattern falls apart to make way for the better one, but the failure to make the new pattern survive). I tried all kinds of chemical cocktails in an effort to anchor the sane state but nothing worked consistently. I've now turned to meditation and it's been giving me brief glimpses of the previous experiences, but nothing nearly as intense.
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Another way of approaching the topic that may be of some interest (at least to me):
Does anyone have any scientific research material on states in the brain during "enlightenment" moments?
Does anyone have any scientific research material on states in the brain during "psychedelic" moments that seem similar enough to the "enlightenment" moments?
Does anyone have any scientific research material on states in the brain during "psychedelic" moments of non-enlightenment versus enlightenment? I'd be interested in peak vs non-peak moments (which some drugs seem to be partial to)?
The Scientist wants physical evidence for enlightenment moments based on the foundational assumption that with the right tool, we can measure everything. The Skeptic is not so sure that is possible, but for the time being I've bound and gagged him.
The Scientist found this interesting which led to his questions:
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@Tinman said
"Another way of approaching the topic that may be of some interest (at least to me):
Does anyone have any scientific research material on states in the brain during "enlightenment" moments?
Does anyone have any scientific research material on states in the brain during "psychedelic" moments that seem similar enough to the "enlightenment" moments?
Does anyone have any scientific research material on states in the brain during "psychedelic" moments of non-enlightenment versus enlightenment? I'd be interested in peak vs non-peak moments (which some drugs seem to be partial to)?
The Scientist wants physical evidence for enlightenment moments based on the foundational assumption that with the right tool, we can measure everything. The Skeptic is not so sure that is possible, but for the time being I've bound and gagged him.
The Scientist found this interesting which led to his questions:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFFMtq5g8N4"
Look up Andrew Newberg and James H. Austin.
Ken Wilber is a new age philosopher, not a scientist.
93 93/93
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The Herb Dangerous essays in the Equinox are among the best I have seen regarding magickal use of weed, particularlt part 2. Part 1 is a pharmaceutical study, useful for dosage, extraction, etc. While sometimes hash and other chemicals can help you get to the frequency you need, I believe one should always strive to achieve them naturally at some point. Natural changes in consciousness are more potent, last longer, and have less noise/side effects than chemically assisted. Its the getting there without herbs and gasses and doses thats the hard work.
A PHARMACEUTICAL STUDY
www.the-equinox.org/vol1/no1/eqi01015.htmlTHE PSYCHOLOGY OF HASHISH
www.the-equinox.org/vol1/no2/eqi02004.html -
I like topics like these
, but at the moment on this new laptop i dont have any links to scientific study's at the moment till i get them back, but i have seen a couple like they took a couple yogi's and hook up some stuff to them so they can see kinda what go on in the brain during meditation, and from what is showed, its almost as if the whole brain lights up. Also another one is you give lsd to a laymen and he trips ofcourse, but giving one to a yogi wont realy do anything, because they worked for decades on achieving that state of mind. I have a couple friends who went to a Native American tribe and smoked some peyote with the cheif to "find their path" which is a very spiritual experience that would be lovely to partake.but when it comes to study's and experiments on psychedelics/entheogens/hallucinogen and the affects they have on the mind reffering to spiritual experiences, theres alot of info on <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.psychonaut.com">www.psychonaut.com</a><!-- w -->
psychonaut = one who is on the path of mastering substence to aid and acheive spiritual enlightenment and expanding ones consciousness.
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@sethur said
"I have always, in spite of my own experiences, been very wary of "psuchedelic" enlightenment. However, having just read "The Cosmic Serpent - DNA and the Origins of Consciousness" by Jeremy Narby, a very serious academic, I've changed my mind. It is worth noting, though, that LSD and Psilocybin are not true hallucinogens. The true experiences seem to involve DMT, which I've never tried."
LSD and Psilocybin are 'true' hallucinogens, they just don't usually cause 'true hallucinations'.
'True hallucinations' are mistaken for actual reality, 'pseudo-hallucinations' happen in the 'mind's eye' superimposed over normal vision yet they're still 'true' experiences.Psilocybin is 4-hydroxylated DMT and can cause 'true hallucinations' in high doses.
Narby's theory of pseudo-hallucinations being UV light projected by DNA and percieved by the pineal is interesting.
@Aum418 said
"Ken Wilber is a new age philosopher, not a scientist."
Ken Wiber is an integral philosopher and layman transpersonal psychologist. He's not an academic but he's very scientific and is critical of the 'new age' movement.
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Anyone have an opinion on salvia divinorum?
I notice this is legal and sold in smoke shops. No clue as to its safety or "mystical" effects.
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It's quite powerful, and not the sort of thing that lends itself to frequent abuse.
It's a brief but powerful trip. If one stays conscious, then the effects can include synesthesia, giggling, glossolalia. Often, though, once one has reached a threshold dosage, they will go catatonic, and have a dissociative trip lasting 5-15 minutes.
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@AvshalomBinyamin said
"It's quite powerful, and not the sort of thing that lends itself to frequent abuse.
It's a brief but powerful trip. If one stays conscious, then the effects can include synesthesia, giggling, glossolalia. Often, though, once one has reached a threshold dosage, they will go catatonic, and have a dissociative trip lasting 5-15 minutes."
Thanks. I read it can produce OBEs... any opinion on that?
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Salvia is a very, very strong drug. I don't know about getting OBEs with it, since Salvia affects the proprioceptory modality and often has an extremely weird and uncomfortable body load, but the uber strong hallucinogens like Salvia and DMT have a distinct "breakthrough" stage which it is pointless to describe (though many accounts are available online if you want to look) except to say that to compare it to an OBE does it no justice.
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@Escarabaj said
"Anyone have an opinion on salvia divinorum?
I notice this is legal and sold in smoke shops. No clue as to its safety or "mystical" effects."
Salvia Divinorum is sold in a variety of preparations; each has its own variety of potency and effect. As far as the "psychedelic experience" is concerned, Salvia induces a state somewhat similar to that of DMT: there is an instant "changing of the planes," and some degree of hallucination is usually present. The difference is this, however: the influence of Salvia produces a distinctly uncomfortable feeling, and is much more intoxicating. DMT produces a blissful, integrated realization: the revelations of Salvia are distant, obscure, and altogether piecemeal.
Some have likened such revelations to the state called Samadhi. The simple fact is this: there is no royal road to wisdom. Any who seek to realize an Arcanum, without the necessary preparations and discipline, is like a child playing with fire, and is often burned.
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@v0rtex666 said
"The Herb Dangerous essays in the Equinox are among the best I have seen regarding magical use of weed, particularlt part 2. Part 1 is a pharmaceutical study, useful for dosage, extraction, etc. While sometimes hash and other chemicals can help you get to the frequency you need, I believe one should always strive to achieve them naturally at some point. Natural changes in consciousness are more potent, last longer, and have less noise/side effects than chemically assisted. Its the getting there without herbs and gasses and doses thats the hard work.
A PHARMACEUTICAL STUDY
www.the-equinox.org/vol1/no1/eqi01015.htmlTHE PSYCHOLOGY OF HASHISH
www.the-equinox.org/vol1/no2/eqi02004.html"Agreed on all points. As a former herb fancier, I can attest the fact that while it may help the beginner to open their conciousness, and to break down spiritual barriers, habitual use tends to cause apathy and burn-out. This isn't to say that marijuana is evil--indeed, every intoxicant has some sort of value--but in the end such things are more hindrance than help when used merely for their pleasurable affects.
Crowley's treatment of hashish is brilliant, by the way. His words on absinthe and cocaine are also excellent. Crowley was greatly responsible for the psychedelic explosion in the west, if I am correct. Is it true that he introduced Aldous Huxley to peyote? Or is that just hearsay? (Huxley's book "Doors of Perception" is a must-read for any student of the subject. It is here that he likens the mescaline trance to Samadhi. )
I also reccomend the section on the "sacred grass of the arabs" in Liber Aleph.
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@JPF said
"As a former herb fancier, I can attest the fact that while it may help the beginner to open their conciousness, and to break down spiritual barriers, habitual use tends to cause apathy and burn-out. This isn't to say that marijuana is evil--indeed, every intoxicant has some sort of value--but in the end such things are more hindrance than help when used merely for their pleasurable affects."
I concur. For me it was the mind/body barrier (i.e., union vs. distinction) that was the greatest affected. All drugs [edit: within reason; i.e., huffing aerosol won't enlighten you!--think more towards the entheogens.] have positive potential for anyone (heroin's a toughy to control), so long as the person is responsible and doesn't rely on them as the sole means indefinitely. I have known people who have done a few hits of freebase cocaine (crack), who went on to discuss politics, religion, etc., with good insight. I have also known people who have done a few hits of freebase cocaine, who afterwards were crawling on their hands and knees picking up chips of paint and fuzzies, looking for another hit. It all boils down to perspective, willpower, and focus.
"By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them."
- Liber O
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@seekinghga said
" I have also known people who have done a few hits of freebase cocaine, who afterwards were crawling on their hands and knees picking up chips of paint and fuzzies, looking for another hit. "
Brings back memories...thankfully I've been emancipated from all such tomfoolery.The problem with contemporary drug use is this: there is absolutely no telling as to its purity. A hit of LSD could very well contain an alarming variety of chemicals designed to imitate or "enhance" the real deal. With the synthetic drugs like ecstacy and crack the ingredients are even more alarming. I stopped taking such things recreationally for just this reason. There are more pure and wholesome ways of "getting high".
With things like psilocybin, peyote, and marijuana, there is a much lesser danger of dosing oneself with laundry detergent. The realizations afforded by these substances are often integral to the spiritual development of the prepared mind. Yet, as always, Do What Thou Wilt.
Indeed, it boils down to perspective. Many great works of literature have been written "under the influence." There is a great difference between the effect a drug has upon an intelligent, spiritually trained mind, and the effect it has upon the layman. Yet, it's also easy for the greatest of minds to get carried away. Observe the long, rambling, disconnected passages in Crowley's "autohagiography."
What it comes down to is this: does this substance enable me to realize my Will? Crowley gives a great examination of this in "Diary of a Drug Fiend," which is a must-read for any student of drug culture. Then again, one wonders if the book wansn't written to justify his own shortcomings. It's obvious that heroin and cocaine became for him a crutch, and contributed to his demise as a teacher and as a human being.
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Cannabis (Marijuana) Psychedelic Mushrooms Entheogenic Mushrooms (amanitas) Unrefined Opium Coca Leaves and arguably less so LSD and DMT are Naturally occurring Drugs that can assist or hinder the user on their path to enlightenment. Everyone is unique and will take a unique path on their quest for enlightenment. Nature is Perfect you can't improve on her. (LSD and DMT are found in such small dosages in nature their effects are minimal until extracted and concentrated)
Man made drugs such as Heroine Cocaine MDMA (ecstasy) Methamphetamine arguably Alcohol all produce pleasure but since mankind at its present stage is self-destructive they seem to only lead to destruction. (Whether a short or long path) I see no basis in these drugs assisting one in enlightenment. I do pose the question Is Alcohol created by nature and only assisted by man? If one accepts that then it can be used to assist the user.
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Nature is full of poisonous things too.
The idea that "natural" is somehow perfect is naive. That's why your alcohol question is fundamentally flawed.
Many plants have evolved to be more palatable to living things, and living things have evolved to digest plants and other living things.
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@AvshalomBinyamin said
"Nature is full of poisonous things too.
The idea that "natural" is somehow perfect is naive. That's why your alcohol question is fundamentally flawed.
Many plants have evolved to be more palatable to living things, and living things have evolved to digest plants and other living things."
Well-made point. I'm reminded of the following quote from Unintelligent Design: Why God Isn't As Smart As She Thinks She Is, by Robyn Williams:
Halitosis, farting, vaginal discharge, reflux, snoring, rheumatism, warts, smelly armpits, varicose veins, menopause, brewer’s droop . . . these are not the marks of a designer at the top of his game. They are the trademarks of a natural process giving us only as much as we need to stay alive.
Of course this is in relation to the argument about "intelligent design", but it's a good reminder in the context of this thread too. I think actually that even Crowley himself was prone to wax over-lyrical about the wonders of Nature.
Consider also, for example, re. food itself, how the physiology and biology of a substantial proportion of the population isn't even adapted to milk and milk products (them being introduced into human culture only relatively recently in evolutionary terms). Some aren't even adapted to pulses.
I actually like the phrase "Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed". Yes, we are wise to go with the Nature's grain as much as possible, but that doesn't mean we have fawn over what's "natural". We are free to do as we will, we just have to be careful and respect our extant biology, and the balance of the natural world.